TJ V-8 Swap

[AZRockrawler]

I'm hoping to swap in a Chevy 350 Vortec into my '99 TJ along with a 700R-4 non-computer tranny. I'm also trying to keep the cost down and am thinking of using the Edelbrock Quadrajet carb as featured in 4 Wheel Offroad Ultimate Carb Shootout. It seemed to fare very well in both rock-crawling as well as general sand or forest trail type driving. Has anyone tried this or does anyone have any other input? I'd appreciate any help. Thanks. Bob

[Jerry Bransford]

Can't you find a used 350 already equipped with fuel injection to hold your costs down? As one who grew up with carburetors, I sure wouldn't voluntarily install one. Especially for rock crawling needs.

[AZRockrawler]

I know I can find one complete but I've known people who have swapped out a newer vortec with injection in an older Chevy truck and they seem to always have a lot of problems getting things to work in that there is always something wrong with the harness and they wind up spending more than they had planned to get custom programming etc., diagnosing bad injectors etc. I know injection is the way to go but was hoping to find another way around the $1,000 or so to get it running properly.

[Lawrence]

Bob,

First things first… Is this a vehicle that needs to be smogged and kept street legal? If so, look into the AZ rules to see what you are allowed to do. If not, anything goes.

If you are bound to do a legal swap, I doubt a carbureted (read OEM modified) Vortec will pass, unless the AZ rules are very loose. If you want to keep the cost down and want fuel injection, look into a LM7 Gen III Vortec with the 4L60E. It is a very common powertrain, it is very cheap to buy, and it is dead reliable. If your budget allows and you want an aluminum block, the LM4 or L33 will do, but they had a short production life and are harder to find. BTW, I am assuming you were talking 5.3L for cost reasons.

If you are on a slim budget and source your own engine, call Jesse Bubb at www.wait4meperformance.com for your harness/reprogramming needs. A lot of folks on www.ls1tech.com use him and he is also very reasonable in his prices. You’re most likely looking at $320 (that’s what he charges for LS1) tops for both harness and reprogramming with all emissions connectors in place. Just give him your gear ratio and tire size, and you’re good to go. Another source is John at www.speartech.com, but he is much more expensive.

Keep in mind that you’ll need new driveshafts and possibly gauges. However, by running both the Chevy ECM and the TJ PCM and using the TJ sensors, you can reuse your stock cluster and all your stock gauges will work, except for the tach. Last I heard, Detroit Engineering was working on a solution for that. I am not sure about the fuel pressure for the LM7, but if it is like the LS1 requiring 65 psi, you can either modify your existing fuel pump, use a stock 05-06 TJ one, or an inline Walbro one.

If you want A/C, you’ll have to notch the frame to clear the compressor, or relocate it up high on the passenger side (Corvette style). Of course, natural ventilation (no top, doors, or windows) is much cheaper.

The other choice would be a Hemi swap. A Ram 5.7L Hemi with 545RFE is dirt cheap, it doesn’t require new driveshafts, no tranny to t-case adapter, and you don’t have to buy aftermarket gauges (although you’ll need a 2002+ cluster). You’ll most likely need a 1” BL if you don’t have one, and an 05-06 tank and fuel pump for emissions purposes (NVLD). For harness and ECM, Tony Squire at www.hotwireauto.com is your guy. He and his son Chris have it down to a science, not the cheapest, but the best. BTW, they also do Chevy harnesses, but hot rod style ones, no emissions.

These are some preliminary thoughts, but to guide you better, it would be nice to know if the vehicle needs to be a registered vehicle, what your goals are for doing this swap (including what equipment you want and what you can do away with), your current specs, and also your budget.

[Jerry Bransford]

If my 4.0L ever blows up where I can swap in a GM V8, I'm calling you Lawrence.

[AZRockrawler]

Hey Lawrence: Thanks for all the info!! I was hoping for fuel injection but as I said before the cost just seemed to keep going up. For example, the adapters for the electronics alone from Advanced Adapters to convert my Atlas 5.0 that is currently behind my AW-4 were around $800. (New reluctor etc.) That was when I got to thinking of a carburated direction to go. As I still do a fair amount of rockrawling I am concerned about the carb working out on a steep climb hence the Q-Jet I found in the magazine article. However, I just sourced the Q-Jet at Summitt and it goes for $750.!!!

As to sourcing a 5.7 Vortec I'm finding them with 90K to 120K in the $600-$800 range. I have looked at quite a few and always found cut wires in the harness(from being removed too quickly from the donor) to rust on the plugs (indicating blown head gasket or worse). I would like to retain the serpentine belt drive sustem but many have worn or missing parts. A new serpentine system from Summit can be had for around $700 including all the accessories. But this of course now puts a USED Engine in at around $1400-$1500 without a computer and wiring harness. I was told by a couple of tranny shops that the 4-L60 is good for around 100K at best. But to re-build it runs around $1200-$1400. with warranty. I can buy a rebuilt non-computer 700R-4 for $695. with warranty.

So if I bought a used computer for around $100. and shipped it to Jesse Bubb as you suggested and paid him around the $350 you mention and then buy a Painless harness for around $700 I would be out around $450 more to have fuel injection + the $800 to Advanced Adapters.

All-in-all I now agree with you that it does make more sense to go with fuel-injection. It's just that there probably will be a lot more little things that pop up by going with FI such as a higher pressure fuel pump etc.

I had not thought about going with the Hemi & 545RFE you mention but just looked at Craig's list and found 2. one was from a 2003 Ram with 74K with the AT & T-Case asking $3500. The other was from a Durango with the AT & claiming 34K but not sure of 2wd or 4wd but asking $2800.

I'm a little nervous about spending this amount and not knowing for sure of the condition of the engine and tranny. I forgot to mention earlier that all the engines I have been finding are out of the vehicle so you cannot hear them run or verify the mileage.

Do you know of anyone that guarantees the condition or lets you hear it run and check it out before it's pulled?

I'd probably rather stick with Chevy since thats pretty much all I've been around unless an exceptional deal came up for the HEMI combo.

Thanks again for all your help.
Bob

[Lawrence]

Bob,

For powertrain here are a few sources:

Scott at Schram Auto Parts. They always have a great selection of GM engines, from long blocks to complete powertrains. A few folks on ls1tech have used them and were happy with the transaction, and a couple of people I know who bought from them were extremely satisfied with the customer service they received. Also, the price they show is not what you would pay, just make them an offer. You can also negotiate for parts to be thrown in at no charge if they have them from the donor vehicle.

Guy at f-parts (look for their contact info on ebay). Although they specialize in Camaros and Corvettes, they can probably source something for you. They also have a good reputation among folks doing swaps. A kid on JU bought an LS2 from them and when he fired it up, a connecting rod for the piston broke. F-parts is sending him a replacement long block.

LKQ is another source which frequently has GM stuff, but I haven’t heard anything from them. They have several locations though the West coast. You might want to PM Quinn (McGyver) as I think he has bought stuff from them.

The ultimate would be to get something from Street & Performance, but they usually deal with super low mileage stuff and it may be out of your price range. S&P will give you a 1 year warranty from the day your project is complete and driveable. If you feel like it, give Mark Campbell a call to see what he’s got.

For the harness, they always pop up on ebay and are usually $200 tops (5.3L ones). Send it to someone for mods, or get a wiring diagram and do it yourself. For the ECM, several outfits have them for less than $100, and some claim that it includes reprogramming, although I am skeptical on that. Bottom line is that you could buy a harness and ECM for about $300, send the thing to get modified for another $300, so for the price of the Q-Jet you have FI. Just a thought.

The LM7 is the “old” style GM and has the 24X reluctor, as opposed to the 58X reluctor GM started to use with the LS2 engines and newer. So, this means that with the LM7 1) you don’t need a separate transmission computer, and 2) you can bolt pretty much anything to the engine, from a TH350, 700R4, 4L60E, etc…, no need for the more expensive newer transmissions.

On a side note, the early 4L60Es had problems and I forget when they solved the issues, but it is sometime around the introduction of the 4L65E, which is the HD version of the 4L60E. But I agree than the 700R4 is way cheaper.

Now about the Advance Adapters thing you mentioned, I am not sure I understand the $800. You will need an adapter between the tranny and the Atlas, and it is about $500 IIRC. Regardless if you go FI or carbureted, you will need it to mate the two.

On the Hemi front, those prices are too high. I recently saw one locally (2007 Dodge Ram) that had less than 1,500 miles and the asking price was $2K OBO. If you look around, you can find a bargain. I only mentioned it as I think that it might come out to be the same $$ wise. No adapter, gauges, etc to buy, but a bit more expensive for the harness, reprogramming, and DBW. The super el cheapo alternative is the 5.2L Dodge engine, but who wants a boat anchor in their engine bay.

Make a few phone calls and do a parts list for both to see if you are really saving that much by going carbureted. Also, keep in mind that engine prices have been coming down lately and a lot of places will make you a deal. Hopefully you’ll be pleasantly surprised.

PS: All this is assuming you don't care much about emissions since you didn't mention it.

[Macgyver]

Originally Posted by AZRockrawler

Hey Lawrence: Thanks for all the info!! I was hoping for fuel injection but as I said before the cost just seemed to keep going up. For example, the adapters for the electronics alone from Advanced Adapters to convert my Atlas 5.0 that is currently behind my AW-4 were around $800. (New reluctor etc.) That was when I got to thinking of a carburated direction to go. As I still do a fair amount of rockrawling I am concerned about the carb working out on a steep climb hence the Q-Jet I found in the magazine article. However, I just sourced the Q-Jet at Summitt and it goes for $750.!!!

As to sourcing a 5.7 Vortec I'm finding them with 90K to 120K in the $600-$800 range. I have looked at quite a few and always found cut wires in the harness(from being removed too quickly from the donor) to rust on the plugs (indicating blown head gasket or worse). I would like to retain the serpentine belt drive sustem but many have worn or missing parts. A new serpentine system from Summit can be had for around $700 including all the accessories. But this of course now puts a USED Engine in at around $1400-$1500 without a computer and wiring harness. I was told by a couple of tranny shops that the 4-L60 is good for around 100K at best. But to re-build it runs around $1200-$1400. with warranty. I can buy a rebuilt non-computer 700R-4 for $695. with warranty.

So if I bought a used computer for around $100. and shipped it to Jesse Bubb as you suggested and paid him around the $350 you mention and then buy a Painless harness for around $700 I would be out around $450 more to have fuel injection + the $800 to Advanced Adapters.

All-in-all I now agree with you that it does make more sense to go with fuel-injection. It's just that there probably will be a lot more little things that pop up by going with FI such as a higher pressure fuel pump etc.

I had not thought about going with the Hemi & 545RFE you mention but just looked at Craig's list and found 2. one was from a 2003 Ram with 74K with the AT & T-Case asking $3500. The other was from a Durango with the AT & claiming 34K but not sure of 2wd or 4wd but asking $2800.

I'm a little nervous about spending this amount and not knowing for sure of the condition of the engine and tranny. I forgot to mention earlier that all the engines I have been finding are out of the vehicle so you cannot hear them run or verify the mileage.

Do you know of anyone that guarantees the condition or lets you hear it run and check it out before it's pulled?

I'd probably rather stick with Chevy since thats pretty much all I've been around unless an exceptional deal came up for the HEMI combo.

Thanks again for all your help.
Bob

For the Atlas, Part's Mike has a setup for the Atlas to add in the electronics. I have a 4speed Atlas here that was built without a speedo drive, AA wanted $800 to add it back in, we are adding in a Part's Mike ring on our 1350 flange for the tune of around $160

There are cheap ways to do the swaps. We did a Vortech in my dad's scrambler. We got the whole enchilada out of a wrecked 1 ton truck for $1500! Engine, Tranny, computer, cat converters, sensors, lines, etc. Then we bought a harness, a tranny adapter, misc parts and only brought the parts total to about $3500.

[AZRockrawler]

Sorry...been offline for 2 days. Computer locked up. Went to Geek Squad. Well at least it now works but can't say too much positive about their level of training. Anyway...I have located a ZZ4 with a TPI with only 5,000 miles and a 700R4 for 2 wheel drive. Am planning on going to look at it tomorrow. Does anyone know if a 2WD can be converted to a 4WD and is it expensive?

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by AZRockrawler

Does anyone know if a 2WD can be converted to a 4WD and is it expensive?

That's what the tranny to t-case adapter does, it runs about $500. Novak or AA have them.