Rubicon abuse this weekend

[cbassett]

Kodak (Dan F.) and I were camped at the top of the slabs over Little Sluice. It was around 12:30 Saturday morning, when we noticed headlights coming down the bank between the old trees over the Little Sluice. I snapped a shot, but of course it didn't turn out:

http://home.off-road.com/~bassettsbe...ropintobox.jpg

Kodak and I walked over to find out WTF these guys were thinking. Hiking up the ledges between the trees, we observed the gear oil path left by one of the rigs (we suspect it was the Commando, based on the headlights in the picture above):

http://home.off-road.com/~bassettsbe...trailtobox.jpg

When we got to the top of the slabs over the Sluice, these guys were driving around, literally, in circles. We asked them what they were trying to do by winching into the Box. One of them, "Troy" (the owner of the Flatty), responded by asking us in a very slurred, "how do get to Buck Island?"
We told him to follow the bypass, staying CLOSE to the wall so he doesn't roll into the Sluice, and up the rest of the sluice, bang a left at the bottom and follow the trail. He responded by again asking us how to get to Buck. We restated the path. He again asked how to get there. At that point I asked Kodak to walk the driver's tire line through the short bypass while the "Troy" followed in his Flatty. As they started on the bypass I took the opportunity to snap a photo of his plate:

http://home.off-road.com/~bassettsbe...otone_troy.jpg

While this was transpiring, yahoo # 2, "Dan" driving a very nice Commando had driven back down the slabs.

I followed Troy up the short bypass and to the drop-in at the end. He creeped up to the drop, then turned left and put his tire on the tall boulder at left; a sure recipe for a roll. Kodak and I both yelled, "Woa, stop!!!"
Troy stopped just long enough for us to tell him he'll flop if he keeps that line. His tire was no longer on the ledge so we told him to cut hard right and ease into it. At that point he kept the same line and dumped the clutch, over he went:

http://home.off-road.com/~bassettsbe...eone_troy2.jpg

I ran around to check on Troy's passenger, he was fine. I then ran back to find Dan so he could winch his buddy back over. I found Dan at the first ledge in the Little Sluice. He was trying to hop his way up the 3' ledge onto Toyota Rock. I yelled at him to drive up the short bypass to winch his buddy back over because he just rolled.

These guys were utterly and completely wasted; there was no educating them that night. I did strongly suggest to Troy's passenger that he take the wheel, since he wasn't running every sentense into a single syllable. By the way the Flatty bounded up the rest of hill out of theIn the morning we found several beer cans and an oil container left behind, not to mention at least a quart of oil puddled on the bypass.

Unfortunately the pic of the Commando didn't capture it's license plate:

http://home.off-road.com/~bassettsbe...otspal_dan.jpg

[Scott Hill]

This is why we all get slammed it is the


Here hold my beer, Watch this.

it never turns out good I would like to know who you would report something like this to?? And will they do any thing.



Scott

[Dan-H]

I messed with the shot of the commando in photoshop, but could not get the plate to surface.

too much light feeding back.

Is that shot the highest color resolution you have, or do you have a larger image?

anyway, I think the commando is unique enough in appearance that someone will know them.

Thanks for cleaning up their ****.

- Dan

[Jason L Williams]

It seems too me that wheelers like that usually wheel togther leaving no one sober person to say things like "Dude! That's just ****ed up". Hence no policing. I for one like the folks I wheel with and would never compromise their, or my, safety.
Just my 2 cents.

[derf]

Originally posted by Scott Hill
This is why we all get slammed it is the


Here hold my beer, Watch this.

it never turns out good I would like to know who you would report something like this to?? And will they do any thing.



Scott

We've run a lot of people off from our club 'cause we said they couldn't drink on the trails and ride with us. I just won't put up with that crap.

[cbassett]

Hey Scott,

Besides local law enforcement, there is someone to report this behavior too, at least on the Rubicon.

Del Albright of "Friends of The Rubicon" is taking Rubicon Trail abusers head-on. He's asked for anyone observing such abuse to gather as much info as possible and report the violators to him.
I've posted my info on http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...268#post708268 , which is a thread Del setup specifically for this purpose, in the Rubicon Trail Forum on pirate4x4.com.

[TObject]

How is reporting bad behavior going to help fighting trails closure? Don?t you think that keeping sightings like this to ourselves would be in our interest? Why help Sierra Club? What am I missing here?

Nice report. Thank you for trying to help fellow four wheelers, even the dumb ones.

[Robert J. Yates]

Sergey,
Go here;
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/forum...?s=&forumid=29
Policing our own and reporting BS (like what Chris documented) to law enforcement will not get the trail closed.

[TObject]

I've just read through a number of threads on pirate4x4. I still think that every new police report about bad 4-weheelers is an asset for enviro-nazis.

The posters on pirate4x4 say it aint so, but where is guarantee they are not Sierra Club spies?

I have nothing against policing our own. I listen to the KFI AM 640 radio, and they often have Jay Santos from Hawthorne as guest on their show. Jay Santos is a brigadier general of the Citizens Auxiliary Police. If you have any crime to report to the CCAP, call 213-427-7265 and they will jump right on it.

Here is some historical information about CCAP:

Formed in 1867, by the civic minded citizens of California (although at that time known by the name "The Apolitical Anti-Oriental and Suffragette Suppression Committee"), The CCAP traces its history through the Golden State's most significant historical periods. Among the examples of CCAP assistance to local law enforcement agencies:

The San Francisco Earthquake 1906. It was here that the famous CCAP "flare drop" technique was first invented. By wrapping oil soaked rags around the broken off table legs from demolished houses, and used as a method to guide responding troops to the various gas leaks in the city, this primitive form of the "flare drop" still managed to excite both the police and residents!

World War II. The CCAP spent many long and cold nights guarding our eastern borders to prevent Axis agents from entering the State. We also assisted in rounding up thousands of potentially dangerous citizens for shipment to relocation camps. It is a matter of pride that nearly 2% of those citizens rounded up were of Japanese heritage!

The Cold War. The CCAP was there to help prevent a Communist sneak attack by atom bombs! In a three year period, we inspected and cleared almost one half million radium enhanced wristwatches, making California safe from smuggled nuclear devices!

The 1965 Watts Riots. When the streets of Watts blew up in flames, the CCAP responded within six hours, and in a break from our normal type of support, arrived with three pick-up trucks full of fried chicken, in hopes this Colored food might calm the situation. It was during this time period that the CCAP experienced it's saddest day, when 10 of our members were killed in the line of duty, including Major Colonel General "Sparky" Buchanan, the Commander Of California Citizen's Auxiliary Police!

DESERT SHIELD/DESERT STORM. In response to the public's general concern over terrorist actions, members of the CCAP decided to help test security at many local military bases, and other key facilities. While the results of these tests can still not be discussed to this day (due to Courtroom gag orders), we report, sadly, that three members of the San Diego chapter of the CCAP gave their lives insuring the safety of the San Onofre Nuclear Power Plant. We also proudly point to the excellent training our team gave to the Plant's K9 security teams prior to their deaths!

Los Angeles Riots 1992. Anticipating possible celebrations by the local citizens of Inglewood after the acquittal of the LAPD members in the beating trial of Rodney King, several members of the CCAP were conducting a "flare drop" at the intersection of Florence and Normandy in South Central LA when the verdicts were read. The resulting guilty verdict found members of the CCAP bravely defending themselves for the 15 seconds it took them to vacate the area. The actions of the CCAP at Florence and Normandy were mentioned in many of the after-action reports of the riot as "contributing factors" to the overall police operations in that critical intersection. Senior officers were called to testify at the Reginald Denny trail later on.

Northridge Earthquake 1994. After the earthquake that struck the San Fernando Valley, CCAP members were attempting to establish a checkpoint to insure that "profiteers" were not smuggling in bottled water. During a confrontation with a smuggler (thanks to a tip off by our trained water sniffing K9), a leaking gas line was discovered, and in honor of General "Pappy" Smith, a "flare drop" was initiated at the site. LA County Fire Department officials were speechless upon their arrival, mute testimony to our effectiveness!

[Robert J. Yates]

First off - the SC is not gunning for the Rubicon. At least not right now and this is not to say that its not endangered but in the El Dorado NF lawsuit, the petitioners were specific in saying that they were not targeting the 'Con.

That should have been a wake up call to everybody who truely cares about the trail and I believe it was. That place can be a freeway at times on certain weekends and while I dispute some of the numbers contained in the LA Times article, I do not have any contention that the place is suffering from over use and mis use. Del Albright is doing the right thing in order to educate the folks that look at the 'Con as the king of trails. He has space on the Pirate Board and he is running the Friends of the Rubicon trail crew.

The Rubicon is rapidly becoming an urban trail given the growth of the local communities. Its easy for people to show up and run into Little Sluice for a day of partying. That brings with it certain types of problems such as heavy drinking. There is nothing wrong with the people who are serious about our sport to not tolerate that type of behavior. I actually believe that the folks who care about the sport and the way it is viewed by not tolerating trash, drunkenss and trail destruction will have the opposite effect of as you say, giving the SC amunition for demanding closures. It tells them, the forest service and law enforcement we are serious and repsonsible. Tough to call for closures in that environment.

[speaceman]

Originally posted by TObject
How is reporting bad behavior going to help fighting trails closure? Don?t you think that keeping sightings like this to ourselves would be in our interest? Why help Sierra Club? What am I missing here?

Nice report. Thank you for trying to help fellow four wheelers, even the dumb ones.

I'm sure the officials in the catholic church heirarchy had similar arguements over the last 50 years while they were covering up the actions of their priests for fear of strengthening the positions of church detractors.

It's far better to police these people on our own. It is one of the more important ways that offroaders can show they are a responsible group.

[TObject]

I've been listening to what Father James McQuarter of the Belmont Academy in Glendale, CA has to say in regards to the molestation charges being brought forth on priests in the Catholic Church.

Father McQuarter states that since Jesus named the Catholic Church the "One True Faith", accusing priests of these allegations is basically an attempt to undermine the church! He explains that there really is no point for authorities to get involved with these cases since Catholic Priests have the power to forgive sin with a ceremony called confession...and with that have the power to forgive themselves! Father McQuarter is asking everyone to back off and not to make a big deal out of this any longer and actually insinuates that God will do whatever is needed to protect His church...so quit "busting the balls" of His priests!

Father McQuarter stands by his statement since he is a Priest and is closer to God than normal folks...that as long as he asks for forgiveness from Jesus Christ, all will be ok!

[TObject]

I will be wearing my Auxiliary Police T-Shirt and the blue band when I go to the Rubicon. I think I'll concentrate on taking a peek at folks' tires. Running the tires at pressure above 8 PSI puts unnecessary stress on the trail, and encourages the use of go pedal that can cause rollovers. We will organize extrication of vehicles found guilty of using over inflated tires, I am currently on the phone to make arrangements with Georgetown impound yard. It's all about saving lives.

[cbassett]

Have you been drinking the tap water again Sergey?

[TObject]

Yes.

[TObject]

I was asked to post the following message here. I don't see why not.

Del Albright here, Friends of the Rubicon. Not only are we going to observe and report violators (trail abusers), we're going to help law enforcement track them down and hold them accountable. FOTR has already started a Volunteer Trail Patrol with a nationwide outreach. I plan to pursue finding the abusers until they get the message.
I look forward to hearing from anyone that wants to be a part of this or has an idea they'd like to share.
Visit my web site: www.delalbright.com/rubicon.htm
or email me: mailto:jeepndel@goldrush.com

thanks, Del

[mrblaine]

Perhaps someone can clear something up for me. While I believe that Mr. Albright is well intentioned and has the best interest of the Rubicon at heart, I feel there are some genuine flaws with his practices.

Would you not consider what he is doing a version of vigilanteism?

Perhaps some day one of the patrol individuals sees an arch enemy and decides to have a little fun with him. Operating under the guise of the self authorized patrol, he catches this individual with a few good camera shots of the rig and license plate, makes up a few good stories about some trail abuse or drinking, or littering, or spitting on a squirrel or whatever. He now does the reporting to the authorities thing and this poor guy is now forced to prove himself innocent instead of the inverse which is what our justice system is founded on.

While I agree with the intentions, I think that the authorities involved are better suited to deal with unlawful situations.

[jeepndel]

I'm now on your list (see intro's) and I'll be happy to answer any questions about trail patrols, the Rubicon or anything else in land use and access. I do this for a living, so let me know if anyone has a question.

Volunteer Trail patrols are cropping up all over the nation. Many of us believe it is the ONLY way we're going to get the motorized outlaws under control. Because if we don't get them handled, they WILL get our trails closed and continue to give us a bad image. It's only a matter of time. There aren't enough law guys to go around to patrol trails like the Rubicon.

I have lots of info I can share for those interested.

But for sure, the Rubicon is now under a trail patrol that is just starting and soon will be blessed by all the agencies and law enforcement folks. I am already tracking down one serious violator (6 different witnesses to three separate incidents) to pass along to law enforcement officials. It's going to deter some folks.
Glad to be on board, Del

[William]

I am a person who likes to get involved. But, I feel that many times, that the best intentioned things can go wrong. It's easy to take a picture and say "This happened". What Jeepndell does is right for it's intention, however, it could, and probably will, get completely out of control.

The thing being, is who draws the line between abuse and percieved abuse. It's obvious when someone ramps a tree, or just chucks trash. But, at somepoint, there will be a situation where some poor shmuck gets caught in a place that will make it look like he's doing something wrong. A person, high on power of "I'm saving the trail" will go all out to ensure that they are crucified for what they saw as wrong.

The sierra club doesn't put nails in boards and bury them in the dirt. They don't spike trees. The sierra club (not my favorite group of people) is beggining of people who get crazy ideas to do things like that.

This type of self patrol has the potential of turning bad. What would be next, voluntary fines? Thugs at the entrance to the trail? Probably not.

You have my firmest wish for success in keeping our trails open, however, I think your methods, however well intentioned, can lead to disaster.

[mrblaine]

We are in the process of talking about a volunteer type patrol on the Rubicon -- maybe wth vests, notepads, ID, and even a radio that will hit the repeater for the Sheriff or the USFS law enforcement. Your ideas would be appreciated. Either way we go at it, we must curtail the mis-behaving that gives our sport a bad image. I'm even thinking that posting the offenders to a world wide web site would be one way to shed some light on their behavior. Join us at the POR BBS to kick this around. Thanks, Del

Del, I copied the above from your website.

I am still trying to reconcile how what you are doing can be 100 percent outside of vigilanteism.

Just for clarification, I looked up the word- vigilante and it states the meaning as any person who takes the law into his or her own hands , as by avenging a crime

I am trying to understand the mechanism used to stop this from happening. You have or will have humans in the patrols and as we all know and have experienced, those around us may not always have the same integrity, belief systems, or honor that would prevent any retribution upon someone from a previous beef.

I know that I have not walked through this world without ruffling a few feathers. As such, there would be hell to pay if someone came knocking on my door over an alleged incident complete with pictures of my license plates. It is not a far stretch to believe that it could happen.

If it were to be posted on a website, I would have even more serious issues.

I am fairly certain that in this country, we are innocent until proven guilty and vigilanteism takes the opposite view and finds you guilty and it is up to you to prove your innocence under unlawfully imposed constraints. Rather contrary to what our justice system is about.

You talk about bad behavior and without going through the legal steps, you have now assumed the capacity of judge and jury with your own imposition of sentence for crimes committed.

Perhaps you can clarify?

[jeepndel]

The answer is threefold:
1. There are trail patrols working well in many states and areas;
2. The volunteers have no law enforcement authority; just observation and education of users; and
3. Law enforcement officials still have to take the information and determine whether the evidence (and witnesses) will stand up. If not, then it goes no where official. If so, then law enforcement takes the ordinary action it would take based on the case at hand.
Some day we will have enough money (I hope) to have adequate law enforcement in our back country. Until then, volunteer trail patrols seems to be the best solution we have.
Del

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by jeepndel
The answer is threefold:
1. There are trail patrols working well in many states and areas;
2. The volunteers have no law enforcement authority; just observation and education of users; and
3. Law enforcement officials still have to take the information and determine whether the evidence (and witnesses) will stand up. If not, then it goes no where official. If so, then law enforcement takes the ordinary action it would take based on the case at hand.
Some day we will have enough money (I hope) to have adequate law enforcement in our back country. Until then, volunteer trail patrols seems to be the best solution we have.
Del

And the issue of posting my license plate on the web as an offender? I don't see where you addressed that anywhere in your response.

[cbassett]

Blaine's comment:
"If it were to be posted on a website, I would have even more serious
issues."
Simple solution: Don't do anything stupid that will get your mug posted on a website. B.S. posts will not be tolerated; if you don't believe that, you don't visit that BBS often. Search the Gen Disc forum, you'll find a multi-page thread that started as a complaint of negligent and dangerous behavior witnessed on the trail. Most of the pictures posted didn't lend themselves to the report
by the witness, so the respondents by and large grilled the original poster for even bringing it up. You'll find my comments in there as well, but supportive of the original poster because, 1) I know him and can vouch for his integrity, 2) I considered his post an effort to try to help repair the image of wheelers on the trail.

Blaine's comments:
"I am fairly certain that in this country, we are innocent until proven guilty and vigilanteism takes the opposite view and finds you guilty and it is up to you to prove your innocence under unlawfully imposed constraints. Rather contrary to what our justice system is about.
You talk about bad behavior and without going through the legal steps, you have now assumed the capacity of judge and jury with your own imposition of sentence for crimes committed.
"
Utterly obsurd. There is no vigilantism taking place here. You might state that posting this information on a public forum places the violators on trial in a court of public opinion. To this I agree, and I'm greatful for that. The Rubicon Trail forum is an extension of the "neighborhood watch" concept behind the voluntary trail patrol effort. If violators see their escapades posted on one of the most viewed four-wheeling sites in the
World, maybe they'll think twice next time. If friends of the violators see the pics/reports, maybe they'll get word to the violator that the trail is being watched and violations being reported.

Just a thought Blaine, how about making some productive recommendations to the concerns you've raised?
To your concern about posting pics on the Web, sorry, I'll continue to do that with or without the FOTR effort. I have absolutely no problem with posting pics and stories of idiots I encounter on the trail.

[Robert J. Yates]

I think Blaines' point is being missed. All who are advocating for the volunteer patrol are speaking from a positive perspective. Blaine is simply raising a "what if" (that is entirely appropriate) about a negative use of the concept that could very well occur.

There is nothing wrong with playing devils advocate in this instance - our own system of government is set up to have this happen with its systems of checks and balances. Something, which in my mind ithat needs to be discussed and prepared for if the volunteer patrol idea is to actually work.

What are folks planning on doing to prevent it from degenerating into a giant ****ing match between people and clubs that do not like each other? Its a valid question.

[cbassett]

The questions have been answered.

If there is actual concern behind the points addressed, here is a good place to do some constructive sharing and make productive recommendations to the potential issues raised by playing devils advocate.

[Robert J. Yates]

I do not see where the question about whos' mug or license plate gets posted or not has been answered. Simply saying don't get caught doing something stupid skirts the issue and it also skirts the matter of who takes responsibility.

Here is a scenario - I am sideways in the sluice, hanging off my winch cable with a flat and somebody I don't even know is standing next to my rig drinking beer with a bunch of empties lying around on the ground. Now, you don't like me. I hit on your girlfriend, dissed your rig or whatever passes for getting people sideways these days and so you go and post me up on the board for yucks, spite or to get even with me for some percieved wrong.

I was doing nothing wrong in this scenario other than possibly having bad driving judgement when it came to the proper line to take. I don't even know the beer drinker and I certianly wasn't drinking so last time I looked, whatever it was that I was doing in that scenario was not a crime.

So how do I get my mug off the board, get out from under public ridicule and take it up with you? That is the question - who is going to police the patrol? What are the avenues of recourse? Is there an appeal process? Who decides?

Maybe some discussion on where and what volunteer patrols that are working elsewhere might get this conversation on point. What are they doing that makes them effective? What lessons have they learned? What problems have they encountered. To whom are they responsible to and who is repsonsible for setting things straight in the case of an error?

[William]

Originally posted by cbassett
Don't do anything stupid that will get your mug posted on a website. B.S. posts will not be tolerated; if you don't believe that, you don't visit that BBS often.

There are people who take things to far. And as I said on the other thread, isn't it possilbe that it would get out of hand? I would like to know who decides what is stupid? If I take my rig and take a hard line and puncture my transmission pan, and blow ATF all over the place, and make a full attempt at cleaning it up, I'm innoccent, however, two or three well placed photos and I'm some jerk who was screwing around, and left oil all over.

And if that "trail crew" decides what is wrong and right, who am I to argue with them??? The question is who's law are they enforcing, and by what intepretation are they making the determination of what is right>

[Robert J. Yates]

That nobody here asking questions about the patrols is not concerned about the trail and closures. I believe that we have demonstrated here on this board, a solid concern over the public image of our sport and the land use issues affecting it.

Asking what the rules are, who is establishing them and who is enforcing them is not, nor should it be construed as a negative attitude. Knowing the facts on this is no different than knowing the facts on installing a SYE inyour rig or what obstacle still lies in front of you when out on the trail.

[cbassett]

The "patrol" is simply turning over the information of the incidents to the proper authorities, not exacting on-the-trail justice.

As for the forum, or any other public forum, nothing is to stop anyone from posting any story of any kind. If someone's got it in for you, they'll post somewhere.

Speaking for me personally, as I stated before, I'll post what I consider to be trail abuse when I observe it. If your conscious enough to speak to (as "Troy" was not), you'll also get a piece of my mind and my suggestion that your actions were not in the best interest of the wheeling community. I'm not a member of FOTR or the patrol Del is trying to form. I am a concerned four wheeler who would like to make a difference.

It ought to be common sense that only credible reports will be forwarded to the authorities. Non-credible, or fabricated, sometimes credible but lacking info or other witnesses, stories will not hold water and will be shot down by other forum members.


Also, your hypothetical would actually play out like this:

Suppose for the sake of your hypothetical, I am the vindictive sort and I've got it in for you...

-I post said pics as "evidence", along with my fabricated story of what transpired.
-Other forum members promptly respond with posts such as, "What do empty cans on the trail have to do with the driver of that rig who appears to be broken down and winching himself off the obsticle???"
-I'm a persistent vindictive a-hole, so I go to more lengths and fabricate stuff like you kicked my dog on the trail, you jumped on an endangered bush, etc.
-Forum members respond in kind asking, "Where are the pictures of this dude's wrong doing?! All we see is a broken rig getting winched. Do you have any other witnesses, so far it's just your word and a picture of a broken rig! Maybe you just don't like this dude."

You doubt the forum members would react this way? Search for the thread I referenced before.


Pictures can be misconstrued. That's why it's helpful to have other witnesses. To your example William, if it happened in a popular section of the trail, odds would be with you that someone else would've witnessed it, and called B.S. on someone trying to spin it into something it wasn't. Suppose however, it was a Greenie, or S.C., taking those pictures.... out of our control eh?

[mrblaine]

To all concerned. You have gotten a bit defensive over my questions. You have posted lots of stuff, yet you still have not answered my questions other than to tell me that my guilt or innocence will be decided by a group of people that are not mature enough to refrain from peppering every other post with a flip off sign or growing up enough to refrain from doing do in just about every picture taken.

Not how or by whom I want my fate judged.

You asked for suggestions. It's actually fairly simple. We have no alcohol on beaches, let's have no alcohol on the trail.

Zero tolerance and most of the problems will evaporate. The outlaws will have no reason to be there. The borderliners will stay on the good side of behavior, and the party spots will get under control. Once you slow down the reasons that most of the outlaws go there, the traffic eases up, the waste problem goes down and may actually become manageable.

Enforcement is pretty easy, especially with a zero tolerance policy. That eliminates any gray areas and makes it easy to boot people out when caught with appropriate punishment by the actual law.

I am willing to give up certain freedoms to keep the trail open, how many of you are willing to give up drinking on the trail to keep it open?