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  #1  
Old 04-20-2002, 03:57 PM
Ace! Ace! is offline
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Rear Standard Cut D44 and Belly Up?

It seems if I have RC differentials front and rear I could go flatter with the t-case skid plate (i.e., the drive shafts won't be at excessive angles), but I'm wondering if I can go completely flat with a rear standard cut D44 (I have a SYE but it seems the driveshaft angles will be very steep with a BU)? Anyone know if having a standard cut D44 will limit how high I can get the skid plate? I've got a 4" suspension lift.

TIA.

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  #2  
Old 04-21-2002, 09:57 AM
Jim M Jim M is offline
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posted April 21, 2002 07:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ace!

I have a factory TJ D44 housing with 4 inch PC springs in this picture. The rear driveshaft angle is at 21* and the rear pinion angle is at 19*. I _still_ have vibes that I can't dial out. A completely flat plate may be possible, but I have to find the source of the vibes first. This plate is spaced down one inch.

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  #3  
Old 04-21-2002, 04:32 PM
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Thanks Jim. That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for. I can get a new TJ D44 housing for a decent price, but am not sure it will end up working for what I'll want to do in the long run. I may have to wait on the rear axle until I find what I want in a high pinion...hmmm.... I wonder if a high pinion D44 is a waste. It's so easy to do the standard TJ D44 too.

Does anyone know if all aftermarket belly ups are a 1" drop, like Jim's?
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  #4  
Old 04-21-2002, 07:06 PM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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Ace, as much as you have brow beat me with your ardent support of the TJ 35, you can imagine that I am highly surprised that you would even consider a 44 for your rig. I am even more surprised that you would remotely consider it's considerably weaker cousin, the HP 44.

Which one is rhetorical?

Just slap in the super 35 you tout so highly and be done.

I know some have run the HP 44 in the rear successfully, but that would be my last choice for a HP rear axle.
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  #5  
Old 04-21-2002, 07:44 PM
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Blaine, with all due respect, let me reiterate what I continue to say almost every time you bring up the Super35 and my support. As ardently as I support the Super35, it's relational to how the person would use it.

I am convinced the Super35 won't work for me, which has nothing to do with how well it works for other people. I'm sorry you think I brow beat you with support of it, but it's like most other things I support, that have a purpose for some. Some things work for some people, some don't. The Super35 works for some. It doesn't mean that things that don't work for some, don't work for any. It also doesn't mean that the things that work for some, work for all. I think the Super35 is a good product, and has a very good place in the market for some people. I don't think it will work for me.

I'm considering a D44 or stronger, in relation to a flat skid. I don't want to build a Super44, or anything else, if it won't work toward my goal. I have very limited funds, and have to "build" this over time (I cannot purchase a pre-built custom axle for $2k+). I'm trying to figure out the best route considering how my money flows. A new TJ D44 housing will be "doable" as far as cost, then the r&p, shafts, etc. will have to be bought over time, until I can have it complete. Anything else I buy (9", D60) will have to be customized (re-tubed, perches, etc.) and will be more difficult for me to find as good a price on.

I've only known of two people that have run a HP D44 in the rear. Seemingly, one with bad results, the other with good results, as far as I've heard from either. Can you expound on what's wrong with the HP D44, is it only the ring and pinion (not that the r&p isn't enough to keep from using it)?

My plans are probably RC D30 front (I've had to sell the one I bought last year, but may buy another), and D44 rear; or RC D44 front and RC 9/D60 rear.

If you can help me in relation to the flat skid, will I need RC axles front and rear to get completely flat? I haven't paid much attention to anyone's rig running a flat skid (in person) and don't know how flat the Tera, Goferrit, Currie, etc. plates are. I don't have a reference as to how flat they are in comparison to a flat piece of steel against the frame rails. So, I can't tell whether going completely flat will mean different things have to be worked out than with one of the current aftermarket designs. I appreciate your, and anyone else's, help.
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  #6  
Old 04-21-2002, 08:05 PM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ace!
Blaine, with all due respect, let me reiterate what I continue to say almost every time you bring up the Super35 and my support. As ardently as I support the Super35, it's relational to how the person would use it.

I guess this makes you the philosophical rhetorical moderator then. You run around taking positions for the sake of the position and the irritation you can provide. Or, is it just a way to sharpen your debate skills. At least with Frank, you can be fairly certain that his presentation will have to do with personal experience and not some philosophical viewpoint.

I am convinced the Super35 won't work for me, which has nothing to do with how well it works for other people.

I've been convinced a long time that the Super35 wouldn't work for you.

I'm sorry you think I brow beat you with support of it, but it's like most other things I support, that have a purpose for some. Some things work for some people, some don't. The Super35 works for some. It doesn't mean that things that don't work for some, don't work for any. It also doesn't mean that the things that work for some, work for all. I think the Super35 is a good product, and has a very good place in the market for some people. I don't think it will work for me.

I don't think you should be sorry, I really think you should take your ardent support and put it into action. Sort of "walk the walk" type of thing.

I'm considering a D44 or stronger, in relation to a flat skid. I don't want to build a Super44, or anything else, if it won't work toward my goal. I have very limited funds, and have to "build" this over time (I cannot purchase a pre-built custom axle for $2k+). I'm trying to figure out the best route considering how my money flows. A new TJ D44 housing will be "doable" as far as cost, then the r&p, shafts, etc. will have to be bought over time, until I can have it complete. Anything else I buy (9", D60) will have to be customized (re-tubed, perches, etc.) and will be more difficult for me to find as good a price on.

I am very familiar with step by step build-ups. I did my last one the same way. I bought the housing with ends. Then I bought the axles. Later I bought the brakes. Even more later, I bit the big one and bought the third member. Due to nice relationships with people, I was able to borrow a HP third member to do my set-ups with.

I've only known of two people that have run a HP D44 in the rear. Seemingly, one with bad results, the other with good results, as far as I've heard from either. Can you expound on what's wrong with the HP D44, is it only the ring and pinion (not that the r&p isn't enough to keep from using it)?

Just out of curiousity, why would your opinion of my opinion of a D-44 RC be different than my opinion about the 35. You don't like what I have to say there, why would you have any more respect with my opinion of the upside down 44?

My plans are probably RC D30 front (I've had to sell the one I bought last year, but may buy another), and D44 rear; or RC D44 front and RC 9/D60 rear.

If you can help me in relation to the flat skid, will I need RC axles front and rear to get completely flat? I haven't paid much attention to anyone's rig running a flat skid (in person) and don't know how flat the Tera, Goferrit, Currie, etc. plates are. I don't have a reference as to how flat they are in comparison to a flat piece of steel against the frame rails. So, I can't tell whether going completely flat will mean different things have to be worked out than with one of the current aftermarket designs. I appreciate your, and anyone else's, help.
There are a ton of variables involved. You once argued that a Currie flat skid would not work without HP's front and rear. Now you are considering a flatter skid and low cut axles. I am terribly confused. Do you have an ultimate goal here? Your tire size, terrain, lift height, and drivetrain will ultimately be your deciding factors. Until those cease to be unknowns, we are just taking potshots in the dark.
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  #7  
Old 04-21-2002, 09:34 PM
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One thing I'll probably never understand is why you get so irritated over some things, and why things that seem trivial to me seem so personal to you. I'm sure you know I'm not that important to get irritated. I've said this numerous times, but here goes again. 'If you don't like what I say, ignore it/me if you want. If you can help with a question of mine, I'd appreciate it and I'd value it.' I try to offer assistance where I can.

To reply, I take a side on a lot of things. If someone asks about the Super35, or anything else, I won't tell them it's polishing a turd just because it won't work for me (that's not a personal attack toward you, ok? it's an example of the "type" of thing I don't do). I don't have all the answers, but if I have information I'll share it. I don't argue for the sake of irritation, but sometimes I will take a side that isn't as commonly held for the sake of a good "debate", and I hope others won't take that as personal (especially if it's on JU). I'd love to be a philosophical rhetorical moderator, I just don't have time...and there isn't a philosophical rhetorical forum, yet

Also, because I don't agree with you, it doesn't mean I don't respect your opinion. {philosophical moment] It seems all too often in life that a disagreement becomes an opinion of a person rather than discourse or thought. I don't agree with that. [/philosophical moment] I don't have to agree with someone to like them (as a matter of fact MOST of my friends are people that I can have very good, and heated, arguments with).

I value opinion, but it doesn't mean I hold one as gospel on every subject. But I ask your opinion, because I value it. If you know something about a D44 RC that would seem to answer a question I might have, or offer insight into what I'm doing I want to know.

I spoke of the step-by-step buildup so you would have an idea of what I was planning on doing. You've said in the past it helps in deciding if you have time to help me. I don't think I argued the Currie BU wouldn't work without HP axles. I do remember saying Currie told me they wouldn't work without HPs front and rear (which they said on more than one occasion, even after telling them I knew someone that did it). You said it would work. I needed to know about the variables, because the manufacturer and you had different answers to my question. Also, I didn't see a Currie skid plate, so I didn't know how flat it was.

Regardless of whether you think I'm a philosopher or a rhetor, I'm just trying to plan a few of my tomorrows in regard to the Jeep. I used to like you a lot, I still value your opinion on Jeep related things, and I hope to gain insight from some of the things you've done. I think you and I could actually learn a lot from each other, about a lot of various subjects. If we do, great. If not, so be it. I won't take it personal, and I won't mean it as personal if it's arguing a side other than one to which you agree.

Now, enough "drivel", and the "specs":
I plan on running a 35" - 37" tire (probably 36" Interco), with stock engine, transmission, and t-case (although I may do a 241 or Atlas at some point). I'll likely run 4.56 or lower. My plan is to keep the COG as low as possible, probably no more than 4" - 5" of suspension lift and ~1" body lift. A tall lift with enormous flex is not my major concern, so raising the skid plate, and the drive shafts become more important for clearance than spring height. I've already stated, my front axle will likely be a RC D30 or RC D44, the rear will be at least a D44. If you changed either axle to low-pinion, would your flat skid still work? I'm am hoping to do something similar in design (except maybe for the t-case crossmember, which I think is a neat idea but I don't know if I could pull off). Do I "need" HP axles front and rear to run a truly flat t-case skid?
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  #8  
Old 04-21-2002, 10:37 PM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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Ace, I have finally figured out what bugs me the most. I generally operate from a first hand or experienced point of view. I rarely recommend things for others that I won't do myself, or have not done. I also rarely defend things that I won't consider doing.

Some take great joy in playing devil's advocate. Bah! I say. Talk about something you have run, bought, built, designed, organized, figured out, or witnessed firsthand. Leave the rhetoric to the politicians.
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  #9  
Old 04-22-2002, 11:02 AM
Robert J. Yates Robert J. Yates is offline
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I'm confused. I did a search on JU and here is what I came up with on all those debates in which you were touting the S35.

"People should spend money on what works for them. $850 to have a D35 that won't break, $1200 for someone's old D44, or $2000+ for an axle that also does double duty on the farm as a plow. Maybe it boils down to those with the D35 should be buying drinks after work on Friday, they're the only ones that can still afford it."

"Why not for hard core, if the truss would solve the bending issue. What would break with the S35/Detroit/truss?"

"I really don't see justification in comparing it to someone else's axle, but whether or not it gets me over the trails I need it to. That's why I find it humorous to debate this. It's a turd, and with a Super35 kit will likely go anywhere any other Jeep will, regardless of D44, D60 or 9"+. Install a S35 kit and lo-and-behold you've got the same turd as someone with a D44 from the factory."

"If I get the money you spent on the D44 option (a $595 option according to Jeepunpaved.com) to use toward my S35 kit, sure. I can get a S35 (includes the Detroit) for less than what someone paid extra for the D44 option and their Detroit. Looks to me like the D44 factory option and Detroit will be over $1k, but the S35 (per TJRON I think) is $850, a savings of at least $150 turd-polishing dollars."

I was hoping that you would actually go the S35 route as I am looking at building up a YJ and I am going back and forth between an 8.8 and a Super Turd 35 and the comparison would have been nice.

As for the flat skid - I have no HP axles and my Belly-up works just fine.
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  #10  
Old 04-22-2002, 06:44 PM
Ace! Ace! is offline
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Robert, can you clarify? Is your belly up completely flat? Do you think using a completely flat skid would be the same as using the belly up you currently have?

Also, I'm not sure what your point is with all the quotes, really. I'm not saying I never defended the Super35. In fact, I have defended the use of a Super35, and will probably continue. I just don't think it will work for me. I still agree with what you quoted me saying in the past, although some of it out of context. If you're considering the Super35, maybe you do too? Are you getting a red YJ?
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  #11  
Old 04-22-2002, 07:37 PM
Scott Hill Scott Hill is offline
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Well Ace,

here goes my take on it. I am not 100% flat but could go flat with stock d30 d44 combo the problem you will run into is the spring buckets and bump stops will be so far off from flat.

I would want to move the spring buckets arm mounts and track bar mount.

well thinking about the shocks I would want to move those mounts too.

from my experience a 1-2 inch droped skid does well and only causes minor problems.
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  #12  
Old 04-22-2002, 09:06 PM
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Thanks a lot Scott, good point. I guess the pinion would be rotated quite a bit, and the angles for everything would be pretty excessive unless they were cut and re-welded/rotated more flat.
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  #13  
Old 04-23-2002, 08:14 AM
William William is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ace!
Also, I'm not sure what your point is with all the quotes, really
Ace,

Often you've defended the super 35 as better than a D44. Both with your "ace" persona, and your "mattbrewtj" persona. What makes it very difficult is the fact you rode with Blaine Johson over the hammers and he had a standard D44 and D30 in his Jeep AND a flat skid. You've known the people on this board for a long time, asking part numbers etc (remember you asking Blaine about shocks) and bits and pieces of this and that. In fact you posted a thread a while back about the currie flat skid - in relation to Jeepkats D44. With all this catalog of facts that have been gathered by you... you ask this question. It just comes across as odd. You can bring up bits and pieces defending saying you never actually asked this question exactly the same way so this question is different. It's almost like your trying to be elected.
Ace, we were never friends, or the like, and I"m sure you'll take some innocent stand point that you've done nothing to deserve this attack, or you'll call me cowboy, or some other way to divert the issue. The point I'm making is that many times, you appear to talk for talking sake. Or should I say post for postings sake. Reality bieng, it matters not if you post a lot or a little... You're accepted until you wear out a welcome. While there is no written or unwritten rule as to what happens when you wear out a welcome, you can be sure that friendships, both real and imagined, wane quickly. You reputation will become one that is undesirable (I'm sure that to you reputation is important..) and really that's what your avoiding.

Be yourself, if you know what that is.

Just a recommendation. Ignore, flame or belittle as you see fit now.
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  #14  
Old 04-23-2002, 06:21 PM
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William, I don't remember saying the Super35 was better than the D44, but maybe I did in some context. Doesn't really matter though, because this post is about diffs and skids.

As I said before I didn't pay much attention to anyone's flat skid that's I've known. I currently don't live close enough to someone with one to take a look. I didn't know Blaine had a flat skid at that time, but in any case I didn't look at it or talk to him about it. Also, I don't know the differences between aftermarket flat skids, and at this point am looking for a truly flat skid. I've never seen a Currie flat skid, so I don't know how it differs from a completely flat skid. Is the Currie truly flat, like Blaine's current skid (that's what I'm shooting for)? I know what it takes to get an aftermarket skid in place (a Tera at least), but for a truly flat skid I would expect there are differences. If there are no differences between say a Tera and what Blaine has done, all I'm doing is asking, because I don't know.

Thanks to those that helped me out on this.

BTW, any friends who's friendship is waning, I don't know who you are, so e-mail me so we can clear it up. If I've done something unagreeable I'd like the chance to clear it up.
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  #15  
Old 04-23-2002, 10:04 PM
TObject TObject is offline
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Cool

Ace,

I need a favor from you. Could you go to your control panel and retype your signature, please. The one that migrated with import was in Unicode, it looks crappy, since we don't use Unicode by default on the new pages:



I think you can still use special characters, you just need to retype them.

Thanks!
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  #16  
Old 04-24-2002, 07:47 AM
Ace! Ace! is offline
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Boy, that was easy to clear up. I hope we're friends again j/k
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  #17  
Old 04-24-2002, 08:58 AM
William William is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ace!
If I've done something unagreeable I'd like the chance to clear it up. [/B]
Constant drivel and avoidance of truth by side stepping has made you an anoyance. However, there wasn't much to begin with. So.. there you go. You can clear it up by being clear on stuff.. and reading your past post.
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  #18  
Old 04-24-2002, 09:12 AM
William William is offline
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Read this Ace...

http://www.jeepbbs.net/forums/showth...=&threadid=150

You asked a lot of questions here. And yet, you now act like you know nothing about it?

http://www.jeepbbs.net/forums/showth...0&pagenumber=2

You talked to Ron about it. Surely you knew that he was running the super 35 you said was better than people claimed it was, and a regular dana 30?

Or did you.. "Just not know".

The post are there.
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Old 04-24-2002, 09:20 AM
William William is offline
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http://www.jeepbbs.net/forums/showth...=&threadid=124

And yet more that you've asked from Jeff Weston, Ron and Blaine. In all the question and answer that went on, you don't remember?
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Old 04-24-2002, 02:07 PM
John John is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Robert J. Yates

I was hoping that you would actually go the S35 route as I am looking at building up a YJ and I am going back and forth between an 8.8 and a Super Turd 35 and the comparison would have been nice.

As for the flat skid - I have no HP axles and my Belly-up works just fine.
Can I throw a monkey wrench in here Robert and suggest a 3rd axle choice? 86-95 (maybe 96) 2WD Toyota 8".
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Old 04-24-2002, 03:16 PM
Robert J. Yates Robert J. Yates is offline
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I have thought of that - we'll see. SOA requires perch work no matter which axle - it will come down to what is the most economical for me to get my hands on and if it will suit my needs. I am tempted to run a Super Turd 35 just because of all the bull**** that has gone around with it. People shouldn't talk smack about stuff they have no experience with or haven't been around on the trails and we need someone to prove it
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Old 04-24-2002, 03:36 PM
William William is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
People shouldn't talk smack about stuff they have no experience with or haven't been around on the trails and we need someone to prove it
Go go pockette books!!!!
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  #23  
Old 04-24-2002, 03:41 PM
Robert J. Yates Robert J. Yates is offline
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Say what? Repeat that in english please
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  #24  
Old 04-24-2002, 08:51 PM
Ace! Ace! is offline
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Thanks for putting everything in one post William, but I'm considering going completely flat, as I stated in the original thread post (i.e., like Blaine). It seems (although I haven't measured any personally, but by the previous posts) that the aftermarket belly-ups are ~1.5 inches from being flat. As I asked here, since I don't have any to look at for comparison, are there differences in what's needed between the current aftermarket offerings and going completely flat? You seem to have a good handle on gathering the data all in one place, so can you tell me if putting a 3/16" - 1/4" flat sheet of metal against the frame rails as a belly up will be much different than the current aftermarket ones that are 1" to 1.5" lower than the frame? I don't know anyone with standard rotation differentials that has done this, unless of course Blaine had a flat skid when I rode with him over Clawhammer (although I didn't look at his skid at the time), so if you know someone that has a flat skid (not just raised) I'd like to hear about it.
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Old 04-24-2002, 10:41 PM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ace!
I don't know anyone with standard rotation differentials that has done this, unless of course Blaine had a flat skid when I rode with him over Clawhammer (although I didn't look at his skid at the time), so if you know someone that has a flat skid (not just raised) I'd like to hear about it.
Would you like those answers from an experiential or philosophic viewpoint? You seem to place the same credibility on both.

It is possible to have a flat skid to the frame and standard cut (not rotation) low pinion housings front and rear. I think that this is a great way to go. Low budget, easy to do, you can make the skid yourself with a few simple tools, the material is relatively inexpensive compared to a purchased skid, and the outcome should be awesome. You probably saved enough by not getting the factory 44 to do the whole thing. Were I on a low incremental budget, this is definitely one of the things I would consider doing.

If you can pull off a raised skid, a flat is the same just slightly more difficult. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the ax-15 the shortest of the trans options in the TJ. If so, that's another great reason to own one with a flat skid. We all know that the longer you get your rear driveline, the easier things are.

I say go for it.
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Old 04-25-2002, 08:01 AM
Ace! Ace! is offline
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Thanks. I hope that was an experiential, not philosophical answer I'll go looking for the plate this next week.
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  #27  
Old 04-25-2002, 08:27 AM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ace!
Thanks. I hope that was an experiential, not philosophical answer

I know of only one way to find out.
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  #28  
Old 04-25-2002, 09:43 AM
Jeff Weston Jeff Weston is offline
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FWIW, the manual trannies are longer than the autos inTJ's & YJ's. The auto w/D35 provides the longest driveshaft.
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Old 04-25-2002, 11:14 AM
William William is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ace!
putting a 3/16" - 1/4" flat sheet of metal against the frame rails as a belly up will be much different than the current aftermarket ones that are 1" to 1.5" lower than the frame?
You answer your own question, the difference is between 1 and 1.5 inches higher.

You're next question is does that 1.5 inches (or 1 inch) require different axles?
Answer by thinking it through:
You can lift a jeep to a 3 inch lift w/sye stock axles.
You can lift a jeep to 6 inches w/sye stock axles.
(You can lift a jeep to 8 inches w/sye stock axles (though, likely tire size would indicate your bumping up axles) )

You know this already... common knowledge..

So, between the two is a 2 inch difference at the cross member. So, if you went from your 4 inch lift to a 6 inch lift, perhaps you're only worry would be drive shaft length?
But, stock axles would work.
Now, if you were to lift the cross member up two inches. It'd be the same. Just think it through.

Anyway, what metal are you going to use in going flat? Have you looked into Blaine's mod with the permanent cross member for the tranny? Those are things you'd want to consider. Axles are probable the least of your concerns.
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  #30  
Old 04-25-2002, 11:27 AM
William William is offline
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Join Date: May 2001
Location: San Diego, CA
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ace!
You seem to have a good handle on gathering the data all in one place,
And you're far better at that than I.
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