Manual trannys are useless......

[Sephiroth]

I have done a lot of research on this subject, and its the need of the driver to have something long and hard in their hands, and im sorry that I am the one that needs to inform you TJRON that you are gay.

[TObject]

Not that there is anything wrong with it.

[Art Welch]

Edited to remove a joke that wasn't as funny five minutes after writing it

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by Don Palese
I have done a lot of research on this subject, and its the need of the driver to have something long and hard in their hands, and im sorry that I am the one that needs to inform you TJRON that you are gay.

Its quite obvious to anybody reading this Don, that you have done alot of research about being gay

[TObject]

Not that there is anything wrong with that, ether.

[Robert J. Yates]

Nope, nothing wrong with Don at all - he is still our friend no matter what his orientation

[Sephiroth]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
Its quite obvious to anybody reading this Don, that you have done alot of research about being gay

[Robert J. Yates]

Couldn't resist Don - I think you are losing your touch in being away from the boards The Ol' Pimp would have never left himself so wide open for such a retort LOL.

[mrblaine]

Yes Don, it is a bit dark in there. Face the door, you can do it. Now reach downwards, move your hand around a bit. Keep doing it until you feel that cold round hard thing. Grasp that firmly, that's it, get a good hold of it. Now, gently but with pressure, carefully rotate it until the latch releases. Push outwards.















































See, it wasn't that hard, you are now out of the closet.

[Paul Sinclair]

Getting back to why manuals make better trail rigs. I have put a lot of thought into this, as almost all my friends have & love their autos, but I still don't get it. Unlike Comp. rigs, which do not have the luxury of putting it in 1st & crawling through a course at 1mph, this is exactly what makes a manual so nice on the trail. The beauty of a manual is that you can drive up to the start of Jackhammer, put it in first, & drive all the way up the front & back down the backside with little input on the gas &/or brake. Shifting gears has absolutely nothing to do with what makes them fun, on a tough trail mine never even leaves 1st. It's the direct drive feeling that is so nice. Once in gear, they go, there's no need to modulate the gas & brake. I have driven Garry's TJ a bit on the Hammers, & while I enjoy driving someone else's Jeep with no regard to scratches or which line to take, I can't stand having to gas it & brake over everything, & that's with an Atlas. You just don't have that solid feeling with an auto. I'll add that from my limited time in an auto, there is MORE need for fancy footwork than there is with a manual.
Paul

[mrblaine]

Paul, you and Ron should be brothers, you both have a fascination with farm machinery.

[sethmark]

Gotta tell ya, I've done some farm time in a previous existence. There's a ****load more technology in most of combines than there is in a freakin' jeep.

I agree about the chugging along. Most of the time, I plop it in 1st, 4lo and steer. Drag the brakes every now and again to slow down a bit more. I rarely need more than 1 foot.

Seth (I just am trying to talk myself into a NV4500... )

[Scott Evans]

Originally posted by Paul Sinclair
Getting back to why manuals make better trail rigs. I have put a lot of thought into this, as almost all my friends have & love their autos, but I still don't get it. Unlike Comp. rigs, which do not have the luxury of putting it in 1st & crawling through a course at 1mph, this is exactly what makes a manual so nice on the trail. The beauty of a manual is that you can drive up to the start of Jackhammer, put it in first, & drive all the way up the front & back down the backside with little input on the gas &/or brake. Shifting gears has absolutely nothing to do with what makes them fun, on a tough trail mine never even leaves 1st. It's the direct drive feeling that is so nice. Once in gear, they go, there's no need to modulate the gas & brake. I have driven Garry's TJ a bit on the Hammers, & while I enjoy driving someone else's Jeep with no regard to scratches or which line to take, I can't stand having to gas it & brake over everything, & that's with an Atlas. You just don't have that solid feeling with an auto. I'll add that from my limited time in an auto, there is MORE need for fancy footwork than there is with a manual.
Paul

Well said!

Scott E.

Originally posted by sethmark


Seth (I just am trying to talk myself into a NV4500... )

I'm already talked into one except I have no money.
All because of driving that damn Hinkley fellow's Jeep for 150 yards!



Jes

Originally posted by Paul Sinclair
You just don't have that solid feeling with an auto. I'll add that from my limited time in an auto, there is MORE need for fancy footwork than there is with a manual.
Paul

So the truth is out. This may actualy be a skill thing. If an MV4500, 120 or so to one and .000000000000005 mph. makes you happy, enjoy. I would guess the next logical step for Paul and those types would be buggy springs, wooden spoke wheels and a bucket of oats.
Garry

[Mark Hinkley]

See Jes that is what I was trying to do, give you stick envy!

mark
orgs mfg

[Mark Hinkley]

You guys that like to Speed thru the rocks, w/your autos, need to get out and camp more, enjoy life, and watch the grass grow. You can do that at .000000000000005 mph.

mark
orgs mfg

Mark:
The third weekend in June is already on the calander.

[Mark Hinkley]

Sounds great!

Are you going to talk with the Mesgietos (Sp) about NOT showing up. And I'll talk to the bear.

mark
orgs mfg

[Bushwhacker]

Blaine, etc...How do the guys with 100:1+ ratios do on the hammers compared to the autos??

I have an NV4500, and tera low w/4.56s=102:1 crawl ratio. Its great for crawling over stuff but sucks if I need to have momentum to climb a loose hill. I usually have to use 3rd gear 4 low or go to High gear to get the tires moving.

I just watched a bunch of EROCC vids that I got for xmas. I also noticed that alot of the guys had autos with big motors. Seemed like they did more throttling through things than crawling.

Our club is working on getting a rock crawling association going here in MO, MOROC. I'm beginning to rethink the low gearing/manual thing and work towards more HP and an auto, oh and some bigger axles, if I'm going to ever compete.

[TJRON]

Thanks Paul, you said it quite nicely. I have only done a few hard trails in Montrose, CO since I put in the 4:1 and it was true pleasure. What you say about dropping the clutch in first and just putting up and down the obstacle is very true. A little hand throttle and the gas pedal needs hardly be touched on the steepest of obstacles. I found I could even stop in precarious positions and just let out the clutch and go with out dropping back a bit. Slipping the clutch is now mostly a thing of the past.
As far as putting along at .00000005 mph goes, don't forget we have a few more gears if we want to go a little faster.

So maybe us stick guys are the wussys taking the easiest way? Hahaha!

BTW Paul, since I put the 4:1 in I often think of you asking me, when we were on the Rubicon, "How the hell do you do this stuff with out low gears?" I guess my answer would be, I just didn't know any better.
Kind of like the guys with autos. Bwaahahaha!

[Paradiddle]

Originally posted by Bushwhacker
Blaine, etc...How do the guys with 100:1+ ratios do on the hammers compared to the autos??

I just watched a bunch of EROCC vids that I got for xmas. I also noticed that alot of the guys had autos with big motors. Seemed like they did more throttling through things than crawling.

Blaine has an auto - and a stock 231 t-case.

I just watched the 2002 RCCA Johnson Valley champs. Lots of guys had an ultralight buggy with a 4 cyl. In fact the trendy thing in rock crawling now is ultra light and ultra strong. I read on the Pirate board that Shaeffer (who was last years champion in a fuel enjected Suzuki engine) is cutting down a Northstar V8 into an ultra light V6 - something like sub 600 pounds ready to run.

Jes - you should drive Blaine or Garry's TJ - then it'll get your head back on straight about an automatic.



Jeff

Originally posted by Paradiddle


Jes - you should drive Blaine or Garry's TJ - then it'll get your head back on straight about an automatic.



Jeff

Let me drive your XJ through Sledge then I'll decide.
First of all a well built and beat (and beat up ) TJ on 37s is way more capable than my tiny XJ on 33s no matter what tranny it has.
I think this argument is silly. Drive what you like and what your comfortable with. I enjoy having no slack in my drivetrain, merely modulating the power input with my right foot. Super smooth and I only use the brakes to stop, never to slow down. The guys who are herky jerky either don't have low enough gears or don't know how to drive and I see them all the time weather they have an automatic or a manual transmission.

Jes

[Paradiddle]

Originally posted by Jes

Let me drive your XJ through Sledge then I'll decide.

You may certainly take a turn at it when you are down here. It's just an XJ - probably drives just like yours excepct for the bigger tires.

Jeff

I think we're planning on another trip to JV at the begining of March.


Jes

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by ghall
I would guess the next logical step for Paul and those types would be buggy springs, wooden spoke wheels and a bucket of oats.
Garry

Bwaaahahahahaaaa...A bucket of oats.........

This is the third post in a week that has just got me rolling

[sethmark]

How many Auto Drivers have driven a properly geared (at least 75:1) manual off road? Is your experience based on EXPERIENCE or based on observation?

Scott, I know where you sit in this equation. Same for Stealth TJ. I'm more interested in those that knock the stick quite so vehemently. Its one thing to have it and decide you don't want it vs. knocking it having never driven it.

Seth (I know a good Auto's easier in the hardest stuff.)

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by sethmark
How many Auto Drivers have driven a properly geared (at least 75:1) manual off road? Is your experience based on EXPERIENCE or based on observation?

Scott, I know where you sit in this equation. Same for Stealth TJ. I'm more interested in those that knock the stick quite so vehemently. Its one thing to have it and decide you don't want it vs. knocking it having never driven it.

Seth (I know a good Auto's easier in the hardest stuff.)

How many auto knockers have driven an improperly geared, stock t-case equipped rig and have a true understanding of the amount of forgiveness that is inherent with the auto?

[Robert J. Yates]

I have - so now what? Actually, it was over 100:1 and worked fine. Would I buy a rig and then spend the money to engineer that in? Nope.

In the end, it doesn't matter really other than the tables seemed to have turned a bit in this discussion with the manual guys being on the defensive end of things for a change

[sethmark]

So nothing. Just curious. Not defensive.

I know the difference from the factory, I know the difference after the thousands of $$ in mods and I know the difference in a full custom buggy. I've driven all three in various terrains and configurations --- From stock Rubicons to full custom competition rock buggies.

But we're not talking about stock to stock in this conversation.
Sure the argument about the money is pertinent, but it clouds the issue.

The issue is performance. I've seen the auto guys insult low geared rigs by calling them tractors, insinuating that the technology is equivalent to horse and carriages, among others, and what I want to know is how many of those people have actually DRIVEN both in equivalent trail situations. In many normal trail situations, I am contending that a prepared auto and a prepared manual driver can both get thru a trail with equal grace.

Seth (the caveat again-- I know the difference and may swap someday VERY soon -- just having entertaining conversation)