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#1
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Rubicon, TJ, Rocks and Cross Country.....
I had a wonderful birthday weekend through the 6-9th of May, with two fellas down from Canada, the President and one member from the Eco 4x4 Club. They came down in one '03 Rubicon with HD 44s, 4.88s and 37s, and the other TJ, a '97 with HD Rubicon axles, 4.88s and 37s also. It was excellent fun and a great time. They got their first taste of cross country travel.
I'm putting up a page but wanted to share some of the initial photos with you all here. The thing that hit me watching these rigs work was that they are set up very simliar to "mr. blaine's" and many other of the TJs here at the site. Very impressive rigs. Steve is on the left and that is his green TJ and Brian, the President of their club, on the right and that is his silver Rubicon. That is my front yard, and we were going to go up to the 'knob' right behind the Rubicon's snorkle. This is the Rubicon trail leading us. Rough country. On the first day, we got up on the ridge line and the rocks showed up with cliffs and outcroppings. Steve in the green TJ led us through this area up toward the summit VEX is running chains on the rear in this application Running through humps and mud toward the first part of the track area heading upwards. For the second day, which was quite long chained up for the front as it was a different application than the first day's running. It was interesting watching these rigs as they are set up for muskeg, tundra, and mud, very deep. Oddly in this application, as in about 90% of what we do, the wide tires-large tires, no chains, worked against the rigs, as they hung up and spun out and had to be winched out of jams, especially on steep grades and long climbing. The narrow tires and chains with the ARBs were excellent in this sort of thing. No errors or stucks on these runs with old VEX. They did suffer body damage, bent tailgates, tie rods (on rocks), fender flare issues. However, these TJs were very very capable rigs. Very capable and it was a real pleasure watching them work thier rigs like this. Since so many of you guys are set up the same I thought you'd like this. I have several thumbnail pages I'm putting up with more photos that they took. Great run and weekend...... PS - TJs rule.....
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Robert A.M. Stephens 26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin' http://behold-the-rage.com robert@behold-the-rage.com 406-755-9765 _______________________________ Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel |
#2
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Great photos, and it looks as though you had a wonderful time! I can't wait to read the full write up, let us know when its up on your site.
I can see where the chains and narrow tires would help you traversing the terrain depicted in the photos. It looks like you blaized a new trail. My father used to run them on his bronco when I was growing up in northern Michigan and they worked well. However, I still question their functionality on rocky trails, especially like those here in AZ. I'm relatively new to 4 wheeling but always willing to learn. I guess I need to see it in action on a rock waterfall, wash or bolder field before I'm convinced. Beutiful yard and scenery by the way !!! Jeeper |
#3
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#4
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About the only time I've seen wide tires do really well in mud is when they're being spun by a lot of horsepower. Watching a K5 Blazer with a built 427 out of a 71 Corvette skate down a mud bog is a sight to see. Hearing that big V8 spool up the 3800RPM stall torque converter in the TH400 and then singing as it shot down the bog was simply amazing. It was almost like a top fuel dragster going down a 1/4 mile. Watching him try to stop after he got to the end of the bog is fun to watch too. Texas rednecks are fun to watch, that's for sure.
I seemed to do pretty well in the mud with skinny tires when they sunk to the bottom and found dirt to bite on. I often did better than the guys with wide tires too. Trouble is, they would always dig out ruts trying to get out and I would high center on those ruts. But it was nothing the winch couldn't handle. I never did think about putting chains on the tires but it makes sense.
__________________
1977 Cherokee: 360/TH400/QT/D44/D44 - Beavis 1984 CJ7: 401/SM465/Atlas/D44/9" - In progress 2004 Pontiac GTO: LS1/T56/M80 - My Free Gear Ratio Calculator (In Metric Too) |
#5
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Robert, nice pics and a belated Happy Birthday. Surprised I don't see chain tensioners on your chains.
derf-we have a local mud/sand dragger with a FJ40, highly modded 541 c.i. big block ($18k for the motor), paddles, and dual currie 9" axles. Impressive is an understatement. |
#6
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In rock, I want them to move around as well as in snow, so, again, no tensioners. Does that make sense?
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Robert A.M. Stephens 26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin' http://behold-the-rage.com robert@behold-the-rage.com 406-755-9765 _______________________________ Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel |
#7
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I'll have the pages up shortly, as there are a slew of photos. They took a bunch and I have more. If I am down your way, we can maybe get together and perhaps test the narrow tires-chain set up in your terrain, as you are correct, it must be observed first hand, in light of the last 20 years the off road media has beaten the drum that somehow a wide tire is for traction, rather than flotation. Watching that silver Rubion, for instance, spin and lose traction even aired down, was impressive, even though those 37" IROCs were double siped and all. Whereas VEX would literally back up to where he was stuck and winch him out with a 'parbuckle' rig up. It was the difference betwen night and day, and in this case, I was only running one set of chains, either front or back. After the first day they both lamented that even in the shale, muskeg, mud, and off camber rock-mud terrain they run into up there in Edmonton, they are going with chains as an experiment. They also wanted me to bring my girl and come up on their trails that are rated (1-9) on the 9s, to test and demo the narrow tires and chains. But without seeing it for real, it makes no sense, and I understand that.
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens 26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin' http://behold-the-rage.com robert@behold-the-rage.com 406-755-9765 _______________________________ Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel |
#8
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Great pics; Robert. The terrain reminds me of upstate, NY. When you are ready for some real rock action; you definately need to make it down here to AZ. I'd really like to see Vex in action.
One question still remains unanswered though... Why does a wide tire work better on the rocks when aired down? This allows for an even greater contact patch as if one just added even wider tires.
__________________
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely, in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, "...HOLY $HIT...what a ride!" |
#9
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In this, think this through carefully, you put a wide tire on that is 37" tall. You air down to 8 pounds. Now you have a 30 or 31" tall tire. Secondly, you defeat the whole purpose of a 'wide tire' since when you air it down, it now is sometimes a 9.00" wide, sometimes a 14.00" or wider, and very very small in diameter. And the reason you sense your getting more traction is because the narrow 8" or 10" rim is what is actually transferring the factor of adhesion to the actual gripped surface of the rock, through the now deflated, small, spongy tire casing. Now, the converse in fact, and my experience-- and remember, from 1965 to 1982, I ran very wide tires. Then, I experimented with very narrow tires, radials, 32 lbs of air, as much weight on the Jeep as possible and then some, chains front and rear and at the time, detroits F & R. On the Young America trail, which is very similiar to your JV area and the areas encountered throughout the southwest, lo, my first experiment going back retro to narrow tires as described, I noted that I did much much better with much less breakage and damage. I also got through areas that I had to really work at before, or had to winch through. It is called "The Factor of Adhesion' and it is true. I really saw this, this weekend whereby I had Jeeps with me set up like nearly everyone else that is really serious about this stuff, like you folks here on the site, and then compared the performance of VEX. We were in shale, rock, mossy rock, steep inclines and very technical Jeepin' overall. VEX outperformed the other two, no stucks, no damage; both the others with RE 5.5" LA lifts, 2" body lifts, Rubicon lockers, 4.88s, 37s, etc. I can' wait to get down in your area and blaine's area also and it will be fun to watch this in effect. I know it is hard to fathom, but it is true. Been doing this so long and I've tried everything under the sun and I am still learning, just about everytime I go out. Is that helpful?
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens 26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin' http://behold-the-rage.com robert@behold-the-rage.com 406-755-9765 _______________________________ Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel |
#10
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I don't "sense" added traction after airing down. This is proven fact. There's an ongoing joke here about the guy who challenged Blaine to run a designated course at JV. The agreement was that Blaine would air down and this joker would run with full pressure in his small tires. Of course; I don't think this guy ever had the cahonies to carry out his challenge, but we all know here who was correct. Ever watch NHRA drag racing? Why aren't they using skinny tires at 60 PSI? Plain and simple; TRACTION. It has nothing to do with flotation; I can assure you. I see it this way... There is more than one way to skin a cat. You choose to run skinny tires at normal pressures, but compensate with the use of chains. We use wide tires that are aired down for better traction for the same effect. Choose your poison. Kind Regards; Eric
__________________
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely, in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, "...HOLY $HIT...what a ride!" |
#11
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Okay, I don't have a clue what I am talking about. Just silly stuff, sorry.
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens 26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin' http://behold-the-rage.com robert@behold-the-rage.com 406-755-9765 _______________________________ Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel |
#12
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That's the type of response i'd expect from some teenage kid. When presented with fact; you seem to get pi-ssy like my dear wife. I seem to recall a winching thread that received the same type of response. I'm the least arguementive person you're liable to encounter. I'm looking for answers, not pouting.
__________________
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely, in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, "...HOLY $HIT...what a ride!" |
#13
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Your response was as if it I posted nothing at all. I've learned in this online culture, over the years, that it is best to just agree and move on. Same for the winching topic. Ramsey ask me to go to work for them, Crosby is using the winch pages for consulting. But if one tries to offer congnizant facts based on credible experience, it is countered with a dissent that is always based on dogma, allegory, or opinion, rarely on fact. I tried to explain carefully why your wide tires, when aired down, works. And why a narrow tire with full air, works better. Still holds. It is so. No harm intended no offense or anything truculent taken. Sometimes, since things work in opposite, nothing is as it is established as dogma, since if that were true, the world would still be flat.
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens 26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin' http://behold-the-rage.com robert@behold-the-rage.com 406-755-9765 _______________________________ Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel |
#14
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"DesertJeeper",
Also, adding, I ran into the same issue when inquiring about the Teraflex Revolver Shackles, in that all I got was allegory, heresay, rumor, and third party claims like, "my aunt's brother's sister used them and they caught on fire and killed everyone, that is what I heard...." Finally, was out and out attacked for even asking about them. Hard to make an assessement on that sort of interchange. The only one who reponded with documentation was a good fella from Pirate 4x4, who, with his example as it was, the failure would have occured no matter what the rig or suspension, so finally, gave up and bought a set and have now tested them for 3 months. So far, on highway, where they are alleged to fail, if it wasn't for them, in my axle blow on the interstate, I wouldn't be here posting. Off road, so far, especially these last two weekends, if they were going to fail, they would have. So, the RS are as they are advertised to be and with a leaf spring set up, they are marvelous. So, another case in point whereby it is sometimes better to agree and move onward, saving trouble on this most strange medium of communication. Again, with yourself and everyone else, there is no harm intended or taken. Was just trying to help a little, based on my experience, over all these years which I think, might be worth something..... Your reply is welcome and encouraged.
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens 26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin' http://behold-the-rage.com robert@behold-the-rage.com 406-755-9765 _______________________________ Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel |
#15
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I would really like to see the skinny tire/chain test on this 10 feet of trail.
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Brian |
#16
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I"ve read this part of your post several times and I"m just not understanding what you are trying to explain as to why larger aired down tires grip less than inflated smaller tires. And are you saying that you have to run chains in this large vs small tire traction comparison? It would seem to me that a larger contact patch (especially in higher traction terrain) is better in most cases and that an aired down larger tire has to have a larger contact patch than an aired up skinny tire. In low traction terrain, I can see a small tire being a better choice as it can sink down to where there is traction and it will not "float" as much. Can you explain again why smaller tires work better and larger tires less so in 3 or 4 sentances, trying to keep it as simple as possible? I'm just not seeing what you are saying. Especially compared to personal observation I have seen out on trails. (Mind you these observations are all west coast wheeling situations, in rock, or sand, or mountain trials with little mud). Now I have never seen anyone running your setup, but I did observe a wwII military jeep running trails on stock tires with no issues. I always thought that was due to the fact that he had 1000lbs less weight over everyone else. We had a friend run 33x10.5 tires vs everyone else's 33x12.5 or 35 inch tires on similarly equipped jeeps and we never saw him have an easier or harder time than anyone else. Of course he didn't run chains. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I can't really see how a tall skinny tire can make that much of a difference except for in very specific situations. Further, I would think it was the chains that were the deciding factor in terrain that had a lot of mud or very loose traction, like the wheeling trip you are talking about in this thread. Have you run chains on a larger tire? What were your experiences then? If you really wanted to get scientific about it, you should have had another jeep besides yours on skinny tires and no chains. You should have also had a large tired jeep on chains to compare to the large tired ones running with out. I think we would have had an easier time understanding you observations that you have posted in this thread, if that additional info was available. |
#17
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In the southern desert area of the Coronado, the Diabla Roo (Devil's Breath) about 200 klicks south of the American-Mexican border, once you get across the Coronado, I changed the boggers out from the sand-scarp running, to the narrow tires and chains on the back, and go through a place quite like what you've shared above. VEX does really well. Last weekend we had two places up a ridge, sorta like your shot, but with moss on the rocks and not as narrow, and again watching the other two radical and very capable rigs traffic that spot was great in study. Again, the narrow tires and chains on the rear excelled. I agree with you and I hope there is a way that many on this board could be on one of the JV runs or such to see this. I'd love to see this too. Thanks for that awesome pic. Rough spot indeed.
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens 26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin' http://behold-the-rage.com robert@behold-the-rage.com 406-755-9765 _______________________________ Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel |
#18
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Sounds to me as though the chains are more the determining factor then the tire width. Now the real problem is in finding a narrow tire that will be tall enough to get the bottom of the Jeep up and out of harms way.
__________________
Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? |
#19
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Here, this might help, read what Brian, President of the Eco 4 Wheel Societyof Edmonton, said of the trip, chains and VEX and his own rig. He runs the heavily modified Rubicon with 37s. Quote:
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens 26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin' http://behold-the-rage.com robert@behold-the-rage.com 406-755-9765 _______________________________ Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel |
#20
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So again... the chains are what make the difference for you.
__________________
Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations? |
#21
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Just for some clarification, I measured my MT/R's at trail pressure.
I'm right at 34" tall and 14" of clearance under the axle tubes. Actually I'm about a pound less than I run on the trail. Temp and elevation differences.
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I am Savvy. |
#22
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http://www.missouri.edu/~adamsbt/doc...ssertation.pdf
Much of it being contextual in nature, plenty of the above research remains applicable to any discussion about inflation. It contains no information on chains. |
#23
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I air my 37's down all the time and it just may be me but I think they actually get wider when aired down. This makes no sense to me. Not dissing you robert, but for the purely rock trails we run, I would gladly run against chains anyday. As a matter of fact, Blaine had told me the next time we run JV he will be on 29's, full air and chains. I will spank his ass. {ok, kidding}
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#24
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I have to be missing something in this thread.
Aside from mud or bog, where I understand the traction issues between skinny and wide tires and "digging" vs "floatation", I just don't see how a skinnier tire can do better than a wider one. It make sense to me that a larger rubber contact patch = more traction. This is certainly true for auto racing and it is true based on what I have seen in all the wheeling I have done or watched. If we are throwing chains into the equation, that is a different issue and then we are making an apples and oranges type comparison, I think. Unless I'm missing something? In any case, if you do come out to JV Robert, I'd like to see someone on 35's or 37's run chains as well, as a real comparison. Either that, or you need to try the trails with out the chains first as a fair comparison to the larger tires being run on the trail. |
#25
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I just don't understand the whole chains thing.
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#26
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Well, I can understand it making a difference, but then in my mind if chains + skinny tires = traction then chains + wide tires = more traction.
That's what I'm trying to figure out. But all we have is Robert running chains on skinny tires and comparing them to wide unchained tires. So it's not exactly the same comparison and so it's also hard to say if he's saying chains only benefit skinny tires or if they benefit all tires, as far as traction is concerned. That's what I"m not understanding in this thread. |
#27
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Combining your top post and the one quoted here, is some answers for you. Sorta repeating myself in a way in the post above and elsewhere, but it is a good discussion none the less. Stating as above, I have ran not only wide tires with chains, both on my Jeeps past (25 years ago) but on other off road equipment, in all weathers and all seasons. Me, 1976, CAT 518 Rubber Tired Skidder W/ Grapple and 60,000 Hyster Hydraulic Winch, 600 HP Turbo deisel, and hydraulic lockers front and rear. The chain type is a Ring Canadian I've ran wide tires, with and without chains for some 15 years before I went back retro to narrow tires. The narrow tire has more adhesion by a huge factor than a wide tire. The wide tire aired down, is smaller in diameter because it is no longer inflated to full PSI. It grips by the fact the transfer of power is closer to the solid rim-tire carcass-ground contact surface. The whole reason it caught on to air down when wide tires became popular about 30 years ago. This defeats the purpose of the idea of a wide tire-airing it down. Comparing, a 5" wide railroad wheel, on a metal surface, can pull a 2 million pound long train with 8 wheels. That is the factor of adhesion, based on wieght and small contact surface. In our Jeep's, save for mud, sand, tundra, meskeg, all other applications you will get far more traction with a narrow tire than a wide one. Add chains and the increase is multi-fold beyond that. Finally, more weight on a smaller surface area, riding on a surface that provides no slippage or give (rock), viola, incredible traction. If your wide tire was a traction device on a hard surface as rock, you would not air it down, would you? The fellas saw this first hand this weekend on our trips. Maybe a quick mail to Brian, the President of their club up in Canada, might help. He is a very talented and skilled four wheeler, and has built up his rig pretty ultimate. This was also his first exposure to a rig set up like VEX. It is set up that way for a reason. It works. Does that help better? jeeper@shaw.ca Brain's email address
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens 26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin' http://behold-the-rage.com robert@behold-the-rage.com 406-755-9765 _______________________________ Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel |
#28
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See above and elsewhere in this thread. Overall, the weight of VEX (5980 lb.s) works to the advantage with narrow tires (9.50x33) without chains. Adding chains, either a set on the front for some applications or a set on the rear in other applications, or, in rock and ultra rocky, mossy, or off camber situations, or very very deep snow, chains front and rear. So, the chains are like an open diff, now with lockers. They help the diff send power to either wheel in rapid sequence. With a selectable locker like ARBs, what I use, the traction is unbelieveable, and more so when climbing on surfaces that does not give, like rocky terrain. The chain also holds and grips, as no rubber could ever do. Moab is a classic for this. All that black rubber ink trails running everywhere there is a testament that wide tires, aired down or not, slips a lot. Chains don't. Ran Moab both ways in 1975, 1977, and saw this first hand with my goofy retro get-up. When I run it since, alone, the chains are incredible and leave no marks. This is not media friendly, and does not sell well, since a wide tire that is 40" tall, 14.50" wide is far more profit inticing than a palty pizza cutter at 33". But, over these 40 years I've watched all this evolve and tried each in sequence and then, finally, went retro. Because it works really really well in about 95% of all wheelin' we end up doing. Just some thoughts and facts from an old hand.......
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens 26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin' http://behold-the-rage.com robert@behold-the-rage.com 406-755-9765 _______________________________ Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel |
#29
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To Speaceman,
Wanted to comment on your post above: Quote:
Narrow tires are for traction. The racing slick is as porus as velcro and acts the same. A gallon of clorox poured over it a few seconds before the power up adds to this effect, and looks really molten as the tires set there for 5 seconds burning away before the rail moves down the line. But that is not off road applications in rock piles. Wouldn't you agree? Does that help?
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens 26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin' http://behold-the-rage.com robert@behold-the-rage.com 406-755-9765 _______________________________ Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel |
#30
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I think a lot of people are forgetting or dismissing contact pressure.
A tire with a smaller footprint has a higher contact pressure than one with a larger footprint. Contract pressure directly affects handling and traction. I do believe that the chains are an advantage in most soft terrain. I am however skeptical that they'd be advantageous in the rocks. I see the tire spinning as the chain makes contact with a rock, then grabbing as the tire itself gets traction. Repeat this over and over.....Seems real herky jerky and a good way to break parts. It's just one of those things I won't believe until I see. Call me Thomas. Allen
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(OlllllllO) Me, Me, Me-It's All About me. But Enough About Me. What About You? What Do You Think Of Me? |
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