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Overlanders Unlimited This is a forum to discuss expedition vehicles and trailer options, a place to talk about builds, modifications, and designs, as well as past and future adventure trips.

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  #1  
Old 10-18-2007, 09:18 PM
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Modifying the TJ, Part 1: Tire size choice

Here is an abreviated description of the TJ as it stands today:
2004 Sport, 4 speed auto, 4.88 gears, 35x12.5x17 Toyo Open Country MT, on 17x9 rims.

I was just able to borrow a set of 33x12.5x15 BFG MT from a neighbor and I did some testing as far as rpms.

First impressions were that I forgot how fun it was to drive the Jeep, it was very quick, even with 4 people going up the mountain by where I live. It pulled very nicely and the steering feel was not as “heavy” (for lack of a better word). Then, we dropped off 2 people, and my neighbor and I went for a drive. Again, the TJ was very quick getting up to speed from a dead stop. We then went on the freeway as I wanted to check the rpms out, and also to make sure I wouldn't be caught between gear at a certain speed. Running the 33s with my 39-tooth speedo gear, I knew the speed would be slightly off, so we brought a GPS. Here are some numbers:

OD ON
60 mph Speedo - 57 mph GPS - 2,000 rpms
65 mph Speedo - 62 mph GPS - 2,250 rpms
70 mph Speedo - 67 mph GPS - 2,350 rpms
75 mph Speedo - 71 mph GPS - 2,500 rpms
80 mph Speedo - 76 mph GPS - 2,650 rpms

OD OFF
60 mph Speedo - 58 mph GPS - 2,900 rpms
65 mph Speedo - 62 mph GPS - 3,150 rpms
70 mph Speedo - 68 mph GPS - 3,350 rpms
75 mph Speedo - 71 mph GPS - 3,650 rpms

The Speedo mph and rpms are obviously approximate since I was reading off the gauge cluster as I didn't have a Scan Gauge II.

With the OD on, it seems to me that the Jeep was much "happier" at those rpms, rather than the rpms with my 35s. Going up the Glendale freeway (I-2) at 70 mph, I could watch the speedo needle drop like a fly with my 35s. With the 33s it held much better, only toward the end I kicked the OD off to give it a little boost. All in all, with the OD on, I think it ran better and I give it two huge thumbs up.

The only reservation I had was running with the OD off. The rpms were a bit more than I wanted. On the other hand, I won't be looking to break any speed record with the trailer behind (yes I know the speed limit thingy, blah, blah, blah), and at 60 mph the rpms seemed to still be fairly reasonable.

The part that sucks is that I have a brand spanking new set of 35s, but it is what it is. Overall, it looks like 33s will be a better choice and that I will be happier with the performance while going up a long grade or to the mountains.

Lastly, I have a line on a set of five 305/65/17 (33x12.5) Pro-Comp Xtreme MT for $600. I am considering getting them and I would like to know if anyone has any experience with those. I am not a big fan of Pro-Comp, but some people tend to say the Xtreme are the only good ones. To quote someone, the question is “are they good, or do they suck less than others?” Another choice would be the new BFG KM2 in a 285/70/17 flavor (33x11.5) but it is mucho $$$.

Any and all opinions are welcome.
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  #2  
Old 10-18-2007, 10:27 PM
Paradiddle Paradiddle is offline
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My TJ on 35s and 4.88 with the 3 speed seems to be right in the middle of your measurements. At 3200 RPM I'm around 68 mph - 3500 RPM puts me a touch over 72 mph - all per the speedo because I don't own a GPS.

Regarding tires - someone at JV had those tires and I wasn't all that impressed with them on those rocks - they seemed to lack lateral traction for such an agressive tire. That said - those rocks seem to like the BFG Crawler Comp and MTR tires best - and those tires aren't always great for everything else.

Do you have to run metric tires? If you can get back to 15" wheels your pocketbook will be much happier.

If you are building for a more streetworthy, towing, camping, fun, expedition TJ you might just find yourself a set of BFG All terrains and call it good. They work damn good in nearly everything, are super quiet and well mannered on the road, and last a long time.

Food for thought.

Jeff
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  #3  
Old 10-19-2007, 08:59 AM
Matt Pascoe Matt Pascoe is offline
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Any and all opinions are welcome.

Well that leaves you wide open, doesnt it?

My unpopular opinion is that 33x10.50 is an excellent tire size for a freeway Jeep that is still quite capable off road. They are considerably lighter than 12.50's and don't protrude outside your fender flares.

I ran 33x10.50 BFG MT's for over a year and was very pleased with the performance. The ONLY reason I changed them is a wanted to play in JV (proved to be quite the expensive decision)

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Old 10-19-2007, 09:10 AM
speaceman speaceman is offline
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Two years ago, on the rookie run out in JV, someone was running a set of Big 0 MT tires (I don't remember the exact tire, Blaine might remember) and I clearly remember them working almost as well or as well as the MTRs.

This was on a toyota Pickup, so I don't know if their ability would carry over to a shorter wheel base jeep, but I do remember them working very well for a tire I had never seen anyone run before.

Anyway, that gives you one more tire to look into, besides the procomps.
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  #5  
Old 10-19-2007, 09:14 AM
NAILER341 NAILER341 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Pascoe View Post
Well that leaves you wide open, doesnt it?

My unpopular opinion is that 33x10.50 is an excellent tire size for a freeway Jeep that is still quite capable off road. They are considerably lighter than 12.50's and don't protrude outside your fender flares.

I ran 33x10.50 BFG MT's for over a year and was very pleased with the performance. The ONLY reason I changed them is a wanted to play in JV (proved to be quite the expensive decision)

nice picture Matt! i was starting to tink your jeep came out of the womb with coilovers and 35's

sorry, i don't really have anything to add to the thread other than that.
my manual trans on 35's and 4:88 does well for pulling the twinkie. at the top of the morongo, i have to drop into third gear, and hit about 4o coming over the crux.
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  #6  
Old 10-19-2007, 09:20 AM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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Originally Posted by Paradiddle View Post
My TJ on 35s and 4.88 with the 3 speed seems to be right in the middle of your measurements. At 3200 RPM I'm around 68 mph - 3500 RPM puts me a touch over 72 mph - all per the speedo because I don't own a GPS.

Regarding tires - someone at JV had those tires and I wasn't all that impressed with them on those rocks - they seemed to lack lateral traction for such an agressive tire. That said - those rocks seem to like the BFG Crawler Comp and MTR tires best - and those tires aren't always great for everything else.

Do you have to run metric tires? If you can get back to 15" wheels your pocketbook will be much happier.

If you are building for a more streetworthy, towing, camping, fun, expedition TJ you might just find yourself a set of BFG All terrains and call it good. They work damn good in nearly everything, are super quiet and well mannered on the road, and last a long time.

Food for thought.

Jeff
I told him to seriously consider the All Terrains but his weiner has to swing in much smaller circles if he does.
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  #7  
Old 10-19-2007, 09:24 AM
zman zman is offline
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Originally Posted by Matt Pascoe View Post
Well that leaves you wide open, doesnt it?

My unpopular opinion is that 33x10.50 is an excellent tire size for a freeway Jeep that is still quite capable off road.

Matt, I'm with you on this. In fact when the 35" tires on my Ruby go bald I am going back to 33" tires and lower the long arm lift to around 3.5". I get tired of hopping in and out, poor brakes and I no longer have any interest in taking this jeep on extreme trails. Besides we all know that tough jeeps have square headlights.

zman
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  #8  
Old 10-19-2007, 09:26 AM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Pascoe View Post
Well that leaves you wide open, doesnt it?

My unpopular opinion is that 33x10.50 is an excellent tire size for a freeway Jeep that is still quite capable off road. They are considerably lighter than 12.50's and don't protrude outside your fender flares.

I ran 33x10.50 BFG MT's for over a year and was very pleased with the performance. The ONLY reason I changed them is a wanted to play in JV (proved to be quite the expensive decision)


What did the 33's do for you that a set of 31's wouldn't?

My position after wheeling in, on, and around 31's, 33's, and 35's is that unless you are playing in JV, 31's are pretty tough to beat.

You can run them most times without regearing, they are cheaper, they don't require a rim swap, and don't take away much performance due to larger rotating mass.

Of course there's that whole weiner thing.
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Old 10-19-2007, 10:12 AM
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Originally Posted by Paradiddle View Post
My TJ on 35s and 4.88 with the 3 speed seems to be right in the middle of your measurements. At 3200 RPM I'm around 68 mph - 3500 RPM puts me a touch over 72 mph - all per the speedo because I don't own a GPS.
Good to know. Judging from that, mine are not sky high.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradiddle View Post
Do you have to run metric tires? If you can get back to 15" wheels your pocketbook will be much happier.
I agree that tires for a 15? rim are much cheaper. I actually thought about it, but decided against it because of the brake kit I want to run. Then I thought of going with a 16? rim, but it would be too much hassle for not much gain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradiddle View Post
If you are building for a more streetworthy, towing, camping, fun, expedition TJ you might just find yourself a set of BFG All terrains and call it good. They work damn good in nearly everything, are super quiet and well mannered on the road, and last a long time.
Yep, I know those are good and Blaine suggested those as well. Since I just took off a set of ATs and the TJ is not a DD, I am not really ready to put another set of ATs on, stupid mental block I guess. Another challenge is that I have to compromise. When I first hinted about trying some 33s, my wife was definitely not happy about it, but she then understood the possible need and benefits. However, AT tires are not going to fly with her either, so MTs it is.
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  #10  
Old 10-19-2007, 10:13 AM
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Pascoe View Post
Well that leaves you wide open, doesnt it?

My unpopular opinion is that 33x10.50 is an excellent tire size for a freeway Jeep that is still quite capable off road. I ran 33x10.50 BFG MT's for over a year and was very pleased with the performance.
Thanks Matt, nice looking setup. I just dropped by 4WP to look at a tire sizes. They had metric equivalents of a 33x12.5 and a 33x11.5, and for some reason the width difference was noticeable.
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  #11  
Old 10-19-2007, 10:19 AM
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
I told him to seriously consider the All Terrains but his weiner has to swing in much smaller circles if he does.
Does yours swing in bigger circles because you run 39 Krawlers? Listen, there are things that I will do that some people may have a different opinion on, and I am cool with that. I ask questions, gather opinions, then make my own decisions. If I make a mistake in my choice, I will either correct it or live with it. Either way, I won't be complaining about it like a schoolgirl who got her panties in a wad. With that said, I totally agree with you that the BFG ATs are a really good overall tire, but an AT tire probably won’t find its way under the TJ right now. I like my knobby weiner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
What did the 33's do for you that a set of 31's wouldn't?
What are 39s doing for you that 35s or 37s wouldn’t?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblaine View Post
My position after wheeling in, on, and around 31's, 33's, and 35's is that unless you are playing in JV, 31's are pretty tough to beat.

You can run them most times without regearing, they are cheaper, they don't require a rim swap, and don't take away much performance due to larger rotating mass.

Of course there's that whole weiner thing.
Well, I guess I should take the TJ back to stock and slap the 28” tires back on. Better, yet, sell it and buy a JK and keep it stock. Not going to happen Blaine, and if I were to remotely entertain the idea, I’d get an FJC instead. Plenty enough for what I do and much more civilized than the TJ.

You are correct sir, it is a weiner thing.
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Old 10-19-2007, 11:30 AM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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BTW Matt, all joshing aside, that set-up is about as balanced and sharp looking as it gets. It's too bad JV is as addictive as it is.
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Old 10-19-2007, 11:38 AM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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Does yours swing in bigger circles because you run 39 Krawlers?
I run 39's because I can, because I'm a crappy driver that compensates with bigger tires and better suspension, and because I'm compensating for deficiencies in other areas. Difference is, I have no problem admitting it.

Quote:
Listen, there are things that I will do that some people may have a different opinion on, and I am cool with that. I ask questions, gather opinions, then make my own decisions. If I make a mistake in my choice, I will either correct it or live with it. Either way, I won't be complaining about it like a schoolgirl who got her panties in a wad. With that said, I totally agree with you that the BFG ATs are a really good overall tire, but an AT tire probably won’t find its way under the TJ right now. I like my knobby weiner.
Fair enough



Quote:
What are 39s doing for you that 35s or 37s wouldn’t?
The 39's cost me money, time, wear and tear and continually devolve my driving skills. Other than that, not much. They are a continual source of aggravation because of all the hassles and money I've spent trying to keep them aired up on the trail.

Personally, I was never happier than when I was on 35's.



Quote:
Well, I guess I should take the TJ back to stock and slap the 28” tires back on. Better, yet, sell it and buy a JK and keep it stock. Not going to happen Blaine, and if I were to remotely entertain the idea, I’d get an FJC instead. Plenty enough for what I do and much more civilized than the TJ.

You are correct sir, it is a weiner thing.
I don't know about the 28's, but 31's would rule.
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Old 10-19-2007, 11:39 AM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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Besides we all know that tough jeeps have square headlights.

zman
Where can we see these square headlights?
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Old 10-19-2007, 12:24 PM
kranky_kel kranky_kel is offline
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Funny to me that this thread came up; this past weekend I pulled my 35" Mud Terrains off and replaced them with 33x10.50 All Terrains. My YJ is a daily driver and the 10.50 all terrain works so much better in the snow and general use. Though, I have taken a lot of razzing from my wheeling buddies.

I am perfectly comfortable how my weiner swings.
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Old 10-19-2007, 12:34 PM
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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I run 39's because I can, because I'm a crappy driver that compensates with bigger tires and better suspension, and because I'm compensating for deficiencies in other areas. Difference is, I have no problem admitting it.
Funny stuff Blaine. I hope I didn’t come out too pi$$y as it was not my intention. I am more than happy to be challenged, or even teased. As I told you before, 33s are plenty enough for me, and if I can't make it on 33s, I shouldn't be on that trail anyways.

As far as the weiner thing, I don’t have a problem admitting it either, since after the little experiment it got seriously deflated. I think that the 33s-4.88s-4-speed auto combo absolutely rules. Hey, maybe we can all gather around the campfire, sing kumbaya, and see who can swing bigger circles? I’ll be in the smaller one, and as long as someone is there to take halfway decent pictures, I’m game. Well, maybe not.

Anyway, I too think that Matt’s pic is a good example of a well balanced setup. It appears to be just enough to compensate for any driver’s lack of skill/judgment, without being over the top. Now, the thing that bugs me is the tire choice, but as you pointed out, the mainstream brands seem to offer advantages that others don’t. Right now, as far as size, I am leaning toward the skinnier 33x11.5 if I can find one decently priced.
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Old 10-19-2007, 12:46 PM
TObject TObject is offline
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This is a note for new people maybe reading this, who want to go bigger than stock: before you decide on 33" tires, if done right, it costs pretty much the same to go to 35" tires. That is on a TJ. Avoid spending your money twice.
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Old 10-19-2007, 12:49 PM
TObject TObject is offline
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Lawrence,

I think, soft sand/dirt is one of the situations where 35" tires may pull you through where 33s will get stuck.
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:31 PM
TObject TObject is offline
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And three times is a charm.

Since we are in the expedition forum. I my personal choice would be ether stock size tire or the biggest tire that will fit on the vehicle and not rub without suspension modifications. I don't think any of the aftermarket suspensions can compete with stock stuff in durability for long trips.
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:55 PM
Paradiddle Paradiddle is offline
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I agree that tires for a 15? rim are much cheaper. I actually thought about it, but decided against it because of the brake kit I want to run. Then I thought of going with a 16? rim, but it would be too much hassle for not much gain.
I think with a 33" tire you'll be surprised at the difference in sidewall flex between a 15, 16, and 17 wheel. I noticed that my 16 MTRs don't stick as well (part of it is the load range) as my 15s did.

I have 5 16 al wheels (they looks like MT Classic IIs) - decent ones - they are not bead locked, but champion could fix that if you need beadlocks. PM me - they are yours for a SONG.

Jeff
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Old 10-19-2007, 02:12 PM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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PM me - they are yours for a SONG.

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Old 10-19-2007, 02:52 PM
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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someone was running a set of Big 0 MT tires and I clearly remember them working almost as well or as well as the MTRs.
I just went to Big O and they apparently don’t make a 285/70/17

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Lawrence,

I think, soft sand/dirt is one of the situations where 35" tires may pull you through where 33s will get stuck.
After seeing how the 33s did on 4.88s, I went back and forth as to what to do. I may be wrong, but I think that in the end 33s will be better overall, they should be able to get me through everyting I plan on doing, and they should put less stress on various components.

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All he has to do is figure out how to sing in a 5.5" bolt circle.
Well darn, I was ready for the performance of a lifetime, all of it in French to boot Thanks for the offer Jeff.
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Old 10-19-2007, 03:46 PM
Paradiddle Paradiddle is offline
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All he has to do is figure out how to sing in a 5.5" bolt circle.
All he needs is a drill to change his bolt pattern. Besides, with his weiner complex I figured he was running the big hub!
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Old 10-19-2007, 04:39 PM
Matt Pascoe Matt Pascoe is offline
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What did the 33's do for you that a set of 31's wouldn't?

I ran 31" BFG AT's for 4 years prior to going to 33's (I really liked the 31" BFG AT's but I was having a hard time pleasing the ladies). I thought it was a huge change when I installed the 33's. An aired down 31 is just plain silly off road, the 33's really impressed me.

I made the mistake of installing 35's and now look at me, married, broke and I have two kids


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Old 10-19-2007, 07:58 PM
JeepGal JeepGal is offline
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God I love my Jeep.

This entire conversation is why my Jeep sits on 33" MTR's and 4:56's. Chris' Jeep will eventually only be for JV. My Jeep will be for everything else. But of course, two Jeeps for two purposes isnt always the most cost effective thing to do

On another matter...DO NOT BUY the Big O Mud Terrains. I had a set early on, before my MTR's. I had two side wall punctures, that finally led me to buying my MTR's. Also we had a friend who ran them. He pretty much borrowed a spare from one of us on every trip out. He held out getting something else because he had a lifetime warranty on them. We finally (jokingly) told him that we would no longer lend him tires

Good luck with your decision Lawrence! If I remember correctly, you really had no plans to build your Jeep for JV, so returning to 33''s sounds like a very sound decision.

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Old 10-19-2007, 09:28 PM
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Well, I think I might go with the deal on the Pro-Comp Extreme. $600 for 5 of them with 1,500 miles is hard to pass up compared to the prices of new tires. Weight wise, they are exactly the same as the MTR or the BFG AT. I am waiting from a response from a guy on the East Coast for both my beadlocks and tires, but I suspect he is a tire kicker.

On a side note, I spoke to someone who is friends with the editors of a popuplar offroad magazine, and over a 3 day period, they tested the new BFG MT KM2 on their JKs. According to them, they sucked big time, and their words were "we couldn't wait to take them off". Of course, being that BFG is a major adveriser, the article read otherwise.

Tam, you are correct, the TJ is not built to run JV. I like the company, but I also like straight body panels
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Old 10-19-2007, 09:40 PM
Jeff Weston Jeff Weston is offline
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My brother going through the Little Sluice on 31's.


My biggest complaint with the BFG ATs is that unless punctured, they lasted so long that the tire seemed to get almost hard and didn't ride so well.

If it is any consolation Lawrence, I'm looking to change the tires and gears on my early Mustang and they both have less than 500 miles on them. In other words, you wouldn't be the first to change his mind and pay dearly for it.

Good luck!

p.s. What is this FJC stuff? Have you seen the blind spots in those puppies? That third wiper looks about as natural as a third nipple.
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Old 10-19-2007, 09:54 PM
speaceman speaceman is offline
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Originally Posted by TObject View Post
This is a note for new people maybe reading this, who want to go bigger than stock: before you decide on 33" tires, if done right, it costs pretty much the same to go to 35" tires. That is on a TJ. Avoid spending your money twice.
It was fairly true for ZJ's too, when it came down to it.

BTW, i have done way more wheeling on BFG AT KO's than I have on MTRs and I have to chime in that the BFG AT was a pretty nice all around tire, for what it was.

It had great on road manners, and was quiet and nice for using around town.

It worked fine off road as well, at Big Bear level difficulty trails or events like TDS out by the Salton Sea.

Really, the BFG AT's biggest weakness was mud or fine dust over rock. Of course, I was wheeling open back then, so that was probably the real issue.

I'd have no problems going back to BFG AT's if I were not wheeling in JV now and then. IMO, they are the best compromise DD/ "regular off roading" tire there is.

Plus they last for ever.
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Old 10-19-2007, 10:02 PM
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Originally Posted by Jeff Weston View Post
What is this FJC stuff? Have you seen the blind spots in those puppies? That third wiper looks about as natural as a third nipple.
The FJC is my wife's ride. She said the same thing and I told her that blind spots is an excuse for people who don't know how to drive Why do you care about what's behind you anyway? Funny thing, is as much as people are complaining, I don't think they are that bad. Consumer Reports doesn't seem to think either, here is their latest test http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...lind-zones.htm

She thinks that third wiper is cool and if she grows a third nipple, it would be pretty cool too.
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Old 10-20-2007, 09:35 AM
Jeff Weston Jeff Weston is offline
Can I get a mint julep with that?
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Alpharetta, GA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
She thinks that third wiper is cool and if she grows a third nipple, it would be pretty cool too.
You're bad.
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