illegal immigrants and driving?

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by Anders Karlsson
I don't see a big problem with this, they drive anyways at least now some of them will get insurance.

Non citizens here legally is not the same.

The problem most have with it is that conferring a license rewards clearly illegal behavior. If you are here illegally, you have broken the law. Period. So why should you get any benefit. I would guess that there are more than a few so called deadbeat dads who have had their licenses stripped from them so why should illegal immigrants be treated any differently?

I do agree though that our government turns a blind eye to the whole situation for reasons of convienence. The Dems need a ready made constituency and the Repubs like the cheap labor. That sucks for the rest of us.

Stu, out here in Cali, we have whats called uninsured motorist premiums - don't know what you have there but I will bet you that this premium here will never go away. Big Insurance will continue to insist that there are uninsured people driving so therefore, the premuim is necessary. Frankly, I don't think I should need it in the first place as I already have insurance so why do I need extra to pay for the other guy who doesn't

Its all about the money and the poor slobs (ie. us) who follow the rules are the ones who are going to pay.

[Stu Olson]

Robert,

Here in AZ, we have uninsured and underinsured motorists premiums. So....like I said.....I am already paying for the SOBs that are driving around without insurance. Likewise, I carry full coverage (comp and collision) on both vehicles....and I know that those rates are determined based on where you live, accidents within an X mile radius of your house, etc. So I am paying for the freeloaders there as well.

So...I understand all about the extra insurance I am paying....which is why I asked what difference does it make?

Now....answer me this....why do I HAVE TO have a dog license for my dog (who lives in my back yard unless I take him Jeepin' out on BLM land) but my neighbor who has a cat does NOT have to have a license for the pretty little kitty that roams the neighborhood, and ****ting in the flower planters? Seems like there is something wrong there too! LOL

[TObject]

Stu, replace the dog with a little adorable illegal alien.

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by TObject
Stu, replace the dog with a little adorable illegal alien.

LOL Sergey, you beat me to that while I was trying to talk tech with Brian

[Joe Dillard]

Originally posted by Paradiddle
Here is the most important thing however, what is that bar connecting the Border Patrol TJ control arm brackets to the skid plate - some kinda frame stiffener?

Jeff,

I took a bunch of pics of the Border Patrol TJ, but my oldest son somehow deleted most of them. Others would have been better to view so you could see the garbage attached to the Jeep.

Basically, the TJ has a huge tcase skid plate that hangs REALLY low & attaches all over kingdom come. So what you are seeing are extra brackets & I guess they may strengthen the frame to some degree. The Border Patrol here in San Diego has been having major troubles with the Fords frame cracking with all the *off-road* use they see. Perhaps this is a way to avoid this on their TJ's.

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by Stu Olson
So...I understand all about the extra insurance I am paying....which is why I asked what difference does it make?

A sane man would think that those premiums would go away but as I said, highly doubtful. Its all about money and the law abiding taxpayer is the one who is going to foot the bill.

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by Joe Dillard
J

Basically, the TJ has a huge tcase skid plate that hangs REALLY low & attaches all over kingdom come. So what you are seeing are extra brackets & I guess they may strengthen the frame to some degree. The Border Patrol here in San Diego has been having major troubles with the Fords frame cracking with all the *off-road* use they see. Perhaps this is a way to avoid this on their TJ's.

..........or else they were built off of the Rubicon platform

[Stu Olson]

Sergey,

I am thinking that my neighbor coulde replace her cat with an adorable illegal alien. You see, my dog is 1/2 doberman and 1/2 pit bull. She would have much more fun fetching the alien than she probably does fetching the kitty.

[Paradiddle]

Cats are considered nomadic animals and dogs aren't.

You are required by law to make an attempt to notify someone when you hit a dog with your car - no such law about a cat.

Now - if you had an illegal alien back there you would have a nice garden, cut grass, and a clean car!

Jeff

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by Stu Olson
Sergey,

I am thinking that my neighbor coulde replace her cat with an adorable illegal alien. You see, my dog is 1/2 doberman and 1/2 pit bull. She would have much more fun fetching the alien than she probably does fetching the kitty.

...or else you could get your lawn mowed for a much cheaper price seeing how nobody here legally wants those kind of jobs anymore

[Paradiddle]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
...or else you could get your lawn mowed for a much cheaper price seeing how nobody here legally wants those kind of jobs anymore

Jinx!

[Anders Karlsson]

The uninsured "premium" is just coverage to pay for the deductible and requires that you have full coverage, at least it is with my insurance company.

So if someone without insurance hits you and you have full coverage you don't have to pay your deductible.

Now if you have liability only you're ***ked.

[Stu Olson]

Anders,

I honestly believe your agent has given you the wrong information concerning what uninsured and underinsured motorist insurance is all about. It has nothing to do with fixing the vehicle or with covering vehicle deductibles.

This is how I understand it and is basically how my insurance agent explained it to me. I have taken the liberty of pasting the below info from another source so I didn't have to spend all day typing it.

It's true that if you are in an accident that's the uninsured motorist's fault, your health insurance coverage will generally pay for your health care and medical bills related to a car accident ? which can easily total tens of thousands of dollars if you have a hospital stay. (In an accident with an insured motorist, health insurance only pays for treatment after the at-fault driver's liability insurance runs out. And if you have UM/UIM coverage, that pays for health care expenses before health insurance kicks in.)

But your health insurance won't pay for lost wages if you miss work, or for pain and suffering resulting from the crash. Lost wages and pain and suffering are paid for by the at-fault driver's liability insurance, and if the other driver doesn't have liability insurance, or doesn't have enough liability insurance, you're out of luck.

For that reason, uninsured motorist coverage is a wise buy. It typically comes with underinsured motorist (UIM) coverage, which covers you if you are in an accident where the other driver is at fault and insured, but his liability coverage won't pay for all of your damages. (Together, the two policies are abbreviated UM/UIM.) UM/UIM coverage pays for bodily injuries resulting from an accident with an uninsured or underinsured motorist. In 26 states and Washington, D.C., you can buy uninsured motorist property damage insurance (UMPD), but it is a separate coverage added to your auto policy.

[Dan-H]

I have two un/under insured line items. one is UM/PD and one is UM/BI

PD = property damage
BI = bodily injury

on the UM/PD, if I carry collision, then it is there to cover my deductable and the premium is related to my collision deductable. If I don't carry collision on a vehicle, then UM/PD has a cost related to the replacement cost of the vehicle up to some (fairly low dollar amount) maximum value.

UMBI also covers passengers of yours that may be injured by another driver without [enough] coverage, up to the limit of the policy.

[Stu Olson]

I stand corrected! I wonder if AZ and CA implement this somewhat differently? (that wouldn't surprise me) Since I carry full coverage, perhaps my agent dwelled much more on the BI aspect since paying my deductible would be a rather small portion of any reasonable accident related expense.

Learn something every day!

[Stu Olson]

Originally posted by Dan-H
UMBI also covers passengers of yours that may be injured by another driver without [enough] coverage, up to the limit of the policy.

In AZ, it also covers your kids (when passengers) when you are at fault. (my son got paid when I was in my one and only accident about 10 years ago)

[Jerry Bransford]

Well it's a moot point now anyway since the California Senate passed the bill and Davis has promised to sign it. He needs the votes.

Would you believe this though? That the Democrats managed to have an electronic fingerprint requirement removed from the bill? Not only will we give California driver's licenses to illegal aliens, but we're not even able to fawking fingerprint them and see if they're on Interpol or any other criminal database.

[Dan-H]

Originally posted by Jerry Bransford


Would you believe this though? That the Democrats managed to have an electronic fingerprint requirement removed from the bill? Not only will we give California driver's licenses to illegal aliens, but we're not even able to fawking fingerprint them and see if they're on Interpol or any other criminal database.

I heard on the news that the finger print was still required, but it would not be supplied to INS.

:still shaking my head:

[Dan-H]

BILL NUMBER: SB 60 ENROLLED
BILL TEXT

PASSED THE SENATE SEPTEMBER 3, 2003
PASSED THE ASSEMBLY SEPTEMBER 2, 2003
AMENDED IN ASSEMBLY SEPTEMBER 2, 2003
AMENDED IN ASSEMBLY AUGUST 18, 2003
AMENDED IN ASSEMBLY JUNE 23, 2003
AMENDED IN SENATE JUNE 3, 2003
AMENDED IN SENATE APRIL 8, 2003
AMENDED IN SENATE MARCH 6, 2003

INTRODUCED BY Senator Cedillo
(Principal coauthor: Senator Murray)
(Coauthors: Senators Alarcon, Ducheny, Escutia, Kuehl, Romero,
Soto, and Vasconcellos)
(Coauthors: Assembly Members Berg, Bermudez, Calderon, Chan, Chu,
Diaz, Dutra, Firebaugh, Goldberg, Hancock, Kehoe, Koretz, Lieber,
Longville, Montanez, Mullin, Nunez, Oropeza, Reyes, and Salinas)

JANUARY 15, 2003

An act to amend Sections 1653.5, 12800, 12801, 12801.5, 12814.5,
and 13000 of, and to add Sections 12801.2 and 12801.9 to, the Vehicle
Code, relating to vehicles.


LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL'S DIGEST


SB 60, Cedillo. Vehicles: social security account number:
driver's licenses: identification cards.
(1) Under existing law, every form prescribed by the Department of
Motor Vehicles for use by an applicant for the issuance or renewal
by the department of a driver's license or identification card is
required to contain a section for the applicant's social security
account number. Existing law requires an applicant who submits one
of those forms to the department to furnish the appropriate number in
the space provided. Existing law prohibits the department from
completing an application that does not include the applicant's
social security account number. Existing law prohibits the
department from including an applicant's social security account
number on a driver's license, identification card, registration,
certificate of title, or any other document issued by the department.
Existing law declares that information obtained by the department
regarding an applicant's social security account number is not a
public record and prohibits the department from disclosing that
information except in specified circumstances.
This bill would require those forms to contain a section for the
applicant's social security account number, federal individual
taxpayer identification number, or other identifier or number that is
deemed appropriate by the department. The bill would allow an
applicant for a driver's license or identification card who is
presently not eligible for a social security account number, but who
submits a specified affidavit signed under penalty of perjury, and a
federal individual taxpayer identification number or other number or
identifier that is deemed appropriate by the department, to submit
those documents to the department in lieu of a social security
account number, and those documents would be acceptable until the
applicant obtains a social security account number. The bill would
require that applicant upon obtaining a social security account
number to provide that social security account number to the
department. The bill would, however, require an application for a
commercial driver's license to include the applicant's social
security account number. Because the bill would expand the scope of
the crime of perjury, the bill would impose a state-mandated local
program.
The bill would also prohibit the department from including an
applicant's federal individual taxpayer identification number on a
driver's license, identification card, registration, certificate of
title, or any other document issued by the department. The bill
would declare that information obtained by the department regarding
an applicant's federal individual taxpayer identification number is
not a public record and would prohibit the department from disclosing
that information, except in specified circumstances.
(2) Existing law requires the department to require every
applicant for an original driver's license or identification card to
submit satisfactory proof that the applicant's presence in the United
States is authorized under federal law and prohibits the department
from issuing a license or card to a person who does not do so.
Existing law requires the department to adopt regulations, including
procedures for verifying citizenship or legal residency of applicants
for driver's licenses and identification cards.
This bill would repeal those requirements.
The bill would, however, require the department to require an
applicant for an original driver's license or identification card to
present an identification document acceptable to the department, for
the purpose of establishing identity prior to completing that
application. The bill would require an applicant who furnishes the
department with his or her federal individual taxpayer identification
number to present to the department a birth certificate or record of
birth, determined to be acceptable by the department, issued by a
foreign jurisdiction, and, in addition, one other specified document
determined acceptable by the department. The bill would permit an
applicant who does not possess a birth certificate or record of birth
to instead present 2 or more of those specified documents.
The bill would require all applications for an original or renewal
driver's license to contain documentation acceptable to the
department showing the applicant is presently residing in this state.

(3) Existing law authorizes the department to establish a program
to renew driver's licenses by mail, for licensees not holding a
probationary license, and whose records meet certain requirements for
the 2 years immediately preceding the determination of eligibility
for the renewal.
This bill would provide that notwithstanding any other provision
of this bill or any other provision of law, an individual eligible to
renew a driver's license by mail pursuant to this program is not
required to personally appear at a department office for purposes of
obtaining that renewal.
(4) The bill would require the Department of Justice, in
consultation with the Department of Motor Vehicles and other
interested parties, to study the cost, feasibility, technological
capacity, and privacy implications for developing a biometrics system
that guarantees that applicants for a driver's license or
identification card are issued only one driver's license or
identification card. The bill would require the Department of
Justice on or before January 1, 2005, to report the findings of the
study to the Legislature.
(5) The California Constitution requires the state to reimburse
local agencies and school districts for certain costs mandated by the
state. Statutory provisions establish procedures for making that
reimbursement.
This bill would provide that no reimbursement is required by this
act for a specified reason.


THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS:


SECTION 1. Section 1653.5 of the Vehicle Code is amended to read:

1653.5. (a) Every form prescribed by the department for use by an
applicant for the issuance or renewal by the department of a driver'
s license or identification card pursuant to Division 6 (commencing
with Section 12500) shall contain a section for the applicant's
social security account number, federal individual taxpayer
identification number, or other number or identifier deemed
appropriate by the department under paragraph (2) of subdivision (a)
of Section 12801.
(b) Every form prescribed by the department for use by an
applicant for the issuance, renewal, or transfer of the registration
or certificate of title to a vehicle shall contain a section for the
applicant's driver's license or identification card number.
(c) A person who submits to the department a form that, pursuant
to subdivision (a), contains a section for the applicant's social
security account number, federal individual taxpayer identification
number, or other number or identifier deemed appropriate by the
department under paragraph (2) of subdivision (a) of Section 12801,
or pursuant to subdivision (b), the applicant's driver's license or
identification card number, if any, shall furnish the appropriate
number or identifier in the space provided.
(d) (1) The department shall not complete an application for the
issuance or renewal by the department of a driver's license or
identification card pursuant to Division 6 (commencing with Section
12500) that does not include one of the following:
(A) The applicant's social security account number.
(B) Subject to paragraph (2) of subdivision (a) of Section 12801,
a federal individual taxpayer identification number.
(C) Subject to paragraph (2) of subdivision (a) of Section 12801,
a number or identifier that is determined to be appropriate by the
department.
(2) The department shall not complete an application for the
issuance or transfer of the registration or certificate of title to a
vehicle that does not include one of the following:
(A) The applicant's driver's license number.
(B) The applicant's identification card number.
(e) An applicant's social security account number or federal
individual taxpayer identification number shall not be included by
the department on a driver's license, identification card,
registration, certificate of title, or any other document issued by
the department.
(f) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, information
regarding an applicant's social security account number, federal
individual taxpayer identification number, or any other information
collected under Section 12801 or 12801.5, obtained by the department
pursuant to this section, is not a public record and may not be
disclosed by the department except for any of the following purposes:

(1) Responding to a request for information from an agency
operating pursuant to, and carrying out the provisions of, Part A
(Aid to Families with Dependent Children), or Part D (Child Support
and Establishment of Paternity), of Subchapter IV of Chapter 7 of
Title 42 of the United States Code.
(2) Implementation of Section 12419.10 of the Government Code.
(3) Responding to information requests from the Franchise Tax
Board for the purpose of tax administration.
SEC. 2. Section 12800 of the Vehicle Code is amended to read:
12800. Every application for an original or a renewal of a driver'
s license shall contain all of the following information:
(a) The applicant's true full name, age, sex, mailing address,
residence address, social security account number, federal individual
taxpayer identification number, or other number or identifier number
deemed appropriate by the department under paragraph (2) of
subdivision (a) of Section 12801.
(b) A brief description of the applicant for the purpose of
identification.
(c) A legible print of the thumb or finger of the applicant.
(d) The type of motor vehicle or combination of vehicles the
applicant desires to operate.
(e) Whether the applicant has ever previously been licensed as a
driver and, if so, when and in what state or country and whether or
not the license has been suspended or revoked and, if so, the date of
and reason for the suspension or revocation.
(f) Whether the applicant has ever previously been refused a
driver's license in this state and, if so, the date of and the reason
for the refusal.
(g) Whether the applicant, within the last three years, has
experienced, on one or more occasions, either a lapse of
consciousness or an episode of marked confusion caused by a condition
that may bring about recurrent lapses, or whether the applicant has
a disease, disorder, or disability that affects his or her ability to
exercise reasonable and ordinary control in operating a motor
vehicle upon a highway.
(h) Whether the applicant understands traffic signs and signals.
(i) Whether the applicant has ever previously been issued an
identification card by the department.
(j) Documentation acceptable to the department showing that the
applicant is presently residing in this state. The department shall
develop regulations specifying those documents that are acceptable
for this purpose.
(k) Any other information necessary to enable the department to
determine whether the applicant is entitled to a license under this
code.

[Dan-H]

SEC. 3. Section 12801 of the Vehicle Code is amended to read:
12801. (a) (1) The department shall require an application for
the issuance or renewal of a driver's license or identification card
by the department to contain one of the following:
(A) The applicant's social security account number.
(B) Subject to paragraph (2), a federal individual taxpayer
identification number.
(C) Subject to paragraph (2), a number or identifier that is
determined to be appropriate by the department.
(2) If an applicant signs an affidavit under penalty of perjury
attesting that he or she is presently not eligible for a social
security account number and submits a federal individual taxpayer
identification number, or other number or identifier that is deemed
appropriate by the department, the submission of those documents
shall be acceptable to the department in lieu of a social security
account number until the applicant obtains a social security account
number. Upon obtaining a social security account number, the
applicant shall provide the department that number under paragraph
(1).
(3) The department shall not complete an application for the
issuance or renewal by the department of a driver's license or
identification card that does not include one of the following:
(A) The applicant's social security account number.
(B) Subject to paragraph (2), a federal individual taxpayer
identification number.
(C) Subject to paragraph (2), a number or identifier that is
determined to be appropriate by the department.
(b) Notwithstanding any other law, the social security number or
federal individual taxpayer identification number collected on a
driver's license or identification card application shall not be
displayed on the driver's license or identification card, including,
but not limited to, inclusion on a magnetic tape or strip used to
store data on the license.
SEC. 4. Section 12801.2 is added to the Vehicle Code, to read:
12801.2. (a) The department shall require every applicant for an
original driver's license or identification card to present an
identification document acceptable to the department, for the purpose
of establishing identity prior to completing an application.
(b) Any applicant who furnishes the department with his or her
federal individual taxpayer identification number pursuant to Section
1653.5, shall present to the department a birth certificate or
record of birth, determined to be acceptable by the department,
issued by a foreign jurisdiction, and, in addition, one of the
following documents, determined acceptable by the department:
(1) Matricula consular issued by the government of the United
States of Mexico.
(2) A passport issued by a foreign jurisdiction.
(3) A military identification card bearing the applicant's
photograph, from the county of origin.
(4) A driver's license, bearing the applicant's photograph, issued
by a foreign jurisdiction.
(5) A driver's license, bearing the applicant's photograph, issued
by another state, possession or territory of the United States.
(c) The department may, through regulations, accept documents in
addition to those specified in subdivision (b), provided that those
additional documents accurately confirm the identity of the
applicant.
(d) An applicant who does not possess a birth certificate or birth
record from his or her country of origin may present two or more of
the documents specified in subdivision (b) or referenced in
subdivision (c).
(e) An applicant who presents to the department a birth
certificate or record of birth issued by his or her country of
origin, but who does not possess any of the other documents specified
in subdivision (b), may present, in addition to the birth
certificate, a letter from the Consulate General of the applicant's
home country that confirms the authenticity of the birth record.
SEC. 5. Section 12801.5 of the Vehicle Code is amended to read:
12801.5. (a) Notwithstanding Section 40300 or any other provision
of law, a peace officer may not detain or arrest a person solely on
the belief that the person is an unlicensed driver, unless the
officer has reasonable cause to believe the person driving is under
the age of 16 years.
(b) The inability to obtain a driver's license does not abrogate
or diminish in any respect the legal requirement of every driver in
this state to obey the motor vehicle laws of this state, including
laws with respect to licensing, motor vehicle registration, and
financial responsibility.
SEC. 6. Section 12801.9 is added to the Vehicle Code, to read:
12801.9. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a commercial
driver's license applicant shall include the applicant's social
security account number in the application.
SEC. 7. Section 12814.5 of the Vehicle Code is amended to read:
12814.5. (a) The director may establish a program to evaluate the
traffic safety and other effects of renewing driver's licenses by
mail. Pursuant to that program, the department may renew by mail
driver's licenses for licensees not holding a probationary license,
and whose records, for the two years immediately preceding the
determination of eligibility for the renewal, show no notification of
a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 40509, a total violation
point count not greater than one as determined in accordance with
Section 12810, no suspension of the driving privilege pursuant to
Section 13353.2, and no refusal to submit to or complete chemical
testing pursuant to Section 13353 or 13353.1.
(b) The director may terminate the renewal by mail program
authorized by this section at any time the department determines that
the program has an adverse impact on traffic safety.
(c) No renewal by mail shall be granted to any person who is 70
years of age or older.
(d) (1) The department shall charge a fee of twelve dollars ($12)
for each noncommercial license renewal and twenty-seven dollars ($27)
for each commercial license or noncommercial firefighter license
renewal granted pursuant to subdivision (a) which expires on the
fourth birthday following the date of the application.
(2) The department shall charge a fee of fifteen dollars ($15) for
each noncommercial license renewal and thirty-four dollars ($34) for
each commercial license or noncommercial firefighter license renewal
granted pursuant to subdivision (a) which expires on the fifth
birthday following the date of the application.
(e) The department shall notify each licensee granted a renewal by
mail pursuant to this section of major changes to the Vehicle Code
affecting traffic laws occurring during the prior five-year period.
(f) The department shall not renew a driver's license by mail if
the license has been previously renewed by mail two consecutive times
for five-year periods.
(g) Notwithstanding any other provision of the act that added this
subdivision to this section during the 2003 portion of the 2003-04
Regular Session or any other provision of law, an individual eligible
to renew a driver's license pursuant to this section is not required
to personally appear at a department office for purposes of
obtaining that renewal.
SEC. 8. Section 13000 of the Vehicle Code is amended to read:
13000. (a) The department may issue an identification card to any
person attesting to the true full name, correct age, and other
identifying data as certified by the applicant for the identification
card.
(b) Any person 62 years of age or older may apply for, and the
department upon receipt of a proper application therefor shall issue,
an identification card bearing the notation "Senior Citizen".
(c) Every application for an identification card shall be signed
and verified by the applicant before a person authorized to
administer oaths and shall be supported by bona fide documentary
evidence of the age and identity of the applicant as the department
may require, and shall include a legible print of the thumb or finger
of the applicant.
(d) Any person 62 years of age or older, and any other qualified
person, may apply for, or possess, an identification card under the
provisions of either subdivision (a) or (b), but not under both of
those provisions.
SEC. 9. (a) The Department of Justice, in consultation with the
Department of Motor Vehicles and other interested parties, shall
study the cost, feasibility, technological capacity, and privacy
implications for developing a biometrics system that guarantees that
applicants for a driver's license or identification card are issued
only one driver's license or identification card.
(b) On or before January 1, 2005, the Department of Justice shall
provide the findings of the study described in subdivision (a) to the
Legislature.
SEC. 10. No reimbursement is required by this act pursuant to
Section 6 of Article XIII B of the California Constitution because
the only costs that may be incurred by a local agency or school
district will be incurred because this act creates a new crime or
infraction, eliminates a crime or infraction, or changes the penalty
for a crime or infraction, within the meaning of Section 17556 of the
Government Code, or changes the definition of a crime within the
meaning of Section 6 of Article XIII B of the California
Constitution.

[Robert J. Yates]

WTF is this all about?

12801.5. (a) Notwithstanding Section 40300 or any other provision of law, a peace officer may not detain or arrest a person solely on the belief that the person is an unlicensed driver, unless the officer has reasonable cause to believe the person driving is under the age of 16 years.

[Dan-H]

we have a screwed up state.

Offense by Nonresident

40305. Whenever a nonresident is arrested for violating any section of this code while driving a motor vehicle and does not furnish satisfactory evidence of identity and an address within this State at which he can be located, he may, in the discretion of the arresting officer, be taken immediately before a magistrate within the county where the offense charged is alleged to have been committed, and who has jurisdiction over the offense and is nearest or most accessible with reference to the place where the arrest is made. If the magistrate is not available at the time of the arrest and the arrested person is not taken before any other person authorized to receive a deposit of bail, and if the arresting officer does not have the authority or is not required to take the arrested person before a magistrate or other person authorized to receive a deposit of bail by some other provision of law, the nonresident shall be released from custody upon giving a written promise to appear as provided in Article 2 (commencing with Section 40500).

[Darrell C]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
WTF is this all about?

12801.5. (a) Notwithstanding Section 40300 or any other provision of law, a peace officer may not detain or arrest a person solely on the belief that the person is an unlicensed driver, unless the officer has reasonable cause to believe the person driving is under the age of 16 years.

Robert,

This sounds identical to the rules I had to follow years ago (it may have changed since then, but doesn't sound like it) that states you may only detain an individual for a "reasonable period of time" while performing background and record checks.

If you believe the individual in question has outstanding warrants, but cannot confirm them (due to slow CLETS system, etc) then you must allow them to leave. If you detain them "excessively" while waiting for a response, they can file suit for unlawful detention.

Basically, you may "believe" they have an expired license, or no license, or an outstanding warrant for arrest, but if you cannot confirm it, then they must be released to go on their merry way.

[Robert J. Yates]

Thanx Darrell,
But to me its more like that they know that folks wil lcontinue not to apply for a license so as not to be trackable or accountable and are writing protection for that into the law

BTW, I've been meaning to look up the Kennedy Meadows Pack Station - I've heard about it but I am not sure where its located other than the fact that if its in the same Kennedy Meadows that I go to, it must be well hidden It seems to me that the station is on the other side of the range (western slope) but I need to confirm. That would be cool if there is a kick ass place to wheel within a 1/2 days drive from the meadow.

[Mark Hinkley]

This is total BS.

With the increase in insurance, Going thru the roof,

The DMV fees

and now this,

California is looking less and less like a good place to live.

mark

[Darrell C]

Originally posted by Mark Hinkley
This is total BS.

With the increase in insurance, Going thru the roof,

The DMV fees

and now this,

California is looking less and less like a good place to live.

mark

You mean the PRK (Peoples Republic of Kalifornia)????

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by Mark Hinkley
California is looking less and less like a good place to live.

Heh, agreed but seeing that the state will follow me around for the remainder of my days so that they can tax my PER's pension, I don't really have a choice on moving unless I move to a state without a state income tax. I sometimes really regret moving out of Arizona. I think I hear Nevada calling me......

[Darrell C]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
Thanx Darrell,
But to me its more like that they know that folks wil lcontinue not to apply for a license so as not to be trackable or accountable and are writing protection for that into the law

BTW, I've been meaning to look up the Kennedy Meadows Pack Station - I've heard about it but I am not sure where its located other than the fact that if its in the same Kennedy Meadows that I go to, it must be well hidden It seems to me that the station is on the other side of the range (western slope) but I need to confirm. That would be cool if there is a kick ass place to wheel within a 1/2 days drive from the meadow.

Robert,

You are undoubtedly right. Knowing what type of political wrangling goes on for each and every piece of legislation, the end result is so muddled-up, convoluted, and such a major compromise for benefit of political party favors (and paybacks, buyoffs, tradeoffs, etc.) that the end result is frequently nothing close to the original intent. And that's hoping that the original intent was worthwhile to begin with!!

Wow, that almost one major, run-on sentence.

Note to self: cut back on caffine

BTW: Kennedy Meadows Resort and Pack Station that's near me is on Hwy 108, on the Western slope of the Sierra Nevada range, at about 7000 elevation. Some wheelin' to be had near there, but great camping, good fishing, and horse trails galore with fantasic views (if you're into horses...not many are).

Actually, I just re-read your post. Within a half-days drive are Niagra Rim trail (20 min or so), Silver Mine (maintained by Mud, Sweat and Gears out of Sonora), Slick Rock and Deer Creek trails (we'd have to cross-country north to Hwy 4). It's a very nice area. Not a lot of super-technical, rock crawling trails, but some very nice country with great views, lakes, rivers, etc.

PM me next time you're up in this area and I'd be happy to show you around.

[Mark Hinkley]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
I think I hear Nevada calling me......

Big time ME TOO!

mark

PS
Kennedy Meadow's Pack station is north of Bridgeport, in the mountians, south of S. Tahoe. Not the same Kennedy Meadows you camp in Robert. I've wheeled the Niagra Rim trail once it was a fun event.

[Daless2]

Not living in CA I don't think I can fully appreciate everyone's position on this issue, but perhaps not having a dog in the hunt works a bit for clarity too.

I have to assume that CA issues drivers licenses after some type of "validation" (Demonstrating you know the driving rules, regulations and laws, and a physical driving test - a Test!)?


Is that right? (They don't just take your picture and put it on a plastic wallet card do they?)

Maybe the question should be "Is this CA Driver License Test ("Validation") valuable?


I assume it is, else why do it. But then again I have been known to be wrong a lot.


Maybe you don't need drivers licenses at all! Maybe there is no value in anyone having one.



Here's a thought,

Either the Drivers Test is valuable in that in helps ensure safe driving (for all, the driver, pedestrians and everyone else on the road) or it's not valuable for that.


If it's not valuable for that, then maybe your politicians should pass a law to do away with the Drivers License Test and Drivers License entirely. If you do that then there would be no need to take a position on illegal's getting driver's licenses.


However, if it is valuable, then I would assume it is valuable to put all drivers through the "program", including illegal's (For the true welfare of all drivers, pedestrians, and everyone else on the road.)

Perhaps this is the issue to be worked and to choose a position on, not "who" should be required to demonstrate this. It should be all or none as I see it.


Other issues are other issues, but this one seems pretty clear when you step back a few feet and look at it.

Frank