Smells like trouble

[Sephiroth]

No im done with this thread, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree!! And what john said is not far from the truth is it!!

Done with cb (ass) ett

Done with CroakOF****

[Croaker]

Originally posted by Sephiroth
No im done with this thread, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree!! And what john said is not far from the truth is it!!

Done with cb (ass) ett

Done with CroakOF****

Now there's a well-written, well-thought out response that is BOUND to get you the respect you crave.

[Sephiroth]

Originally posted by Croaker
Now there's a well-written, well-thought out response that is BOUND to get you the respect you crave.

Like this one Septicrock

Im not looking for any respect in this thread

[speaceman]

Originally posted by Croaker
Damn skippy it has.

Been on a commercial airplane in the last couple of years? I have. It's humiliating.

The bank I work for spent $10MM -- that's TEN MILLION DOLLARS -- on software REQUIRED by the Patriot act. I sure could've used a raise, instead. Or at least better equipment & software that is actually PRODUCTIVE.

Have you opened a bank account lately? You've been affected.

Shall I continue?

I want to start off by saying I am not a fan of the Patriot act. It's a bandaid for the masses that gives the Federal goverment power they already had with less safeguards and checks and balaances.

That being said, as far as the TSA is concerned and the shoe searches, Airport security in the US is still laughable. I'll take humilation if it is part of actually trying to solve a problem. I don't think security at airports is any better now, than it was before 9-11.

Personally, I'm not much bothered by having to take my shoes off before walking through the metal detector as oposed to just walking through the metal detector before hand.

I don't think that inconvenience is going to be enough to get rid of the TSA or PA.

As far as you work situation is concerned, I don't know what to say, but I have a sneaking suspicion that if your bank didn't have to spend the $10 mil on software, the money would have ended up in the bank's bigwig's pockets and not yours. Then again, I don't know what your position is at the bank.

As for opening bank accounts, i'm not sure what you're angry about. Before the PA, I had to show CA ID to open account. After the PA I have to show CA ID, a 2ndary form of ID and sign a PA, boilerplate 1 page form allowing the bank to transfer info if so requested.

As far as I remember, that's nothing that wasn't done behind the scenes anyway, by the IRS, albiet only if larger sums of money were transferred.

Like I said, so far, my life hasn't really been affected by the PA.

The problem with the PA is that it is embodiment of the slippery slope.

As for robert's comment about illegal immegration. I'm just going to say that I think that most people living in Southern california have a higher chance that their lives will be impacted by illegal immegration than the PA.

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by speaceman
I'm just going to say that I think that most people living in Southern california have a higher chance that their lives will be impacted by illegal immegration than the PA.

That may be true but the real issue with the two is incrementalism. At the rate we are going, your kids are going to grow up in a country that has a devalued citizenship through its routine amnesty grants towards illegals as well as a police state in in terms of what the what the government can do to you. So frankly, if you really value the reasons why you procreated, you should absolutely think your life has been affected as much by the PA as illegal immigration.

[Croaker]

Originally posted by speaceman
I want to start off by saying I am not a fan of the Patriot act. It's a bandaid for the masses that gives the Federal goverment power they already had with less safeguards and checks and balaances.

That being said, as far as the TSA is concerned and the shoe searches, Airport security in the US is still laughable. I'll take humilation if it is part of actually trying to solve a problem. I don't think security at airports is any better now, than it was before 9-11.

Personally, I'm not much bothered by having to take my shoes off before walking through the metal detector as oposed to just walking through the metal detector before hand.

I don't think that inconvenience is going to be enough to get rid of the TSA or PA.

As far as you work situation is concerned, I don't know what to say, but I have a sneaking suspicion that if your bank didn't have to spend the $10 mil on software, the money would have ended up in the bank's bigwig's pockets and not yours. Then again, I don't know what your position is at the bank.

As for opening bank accounts, i'm not sure what you're angry about. Before the PA, I had to show CA ID to open account. After the PA I have to show CA ID, a 2ndary form of ID and sign a PA, boilerplate 1 page form allowing the bank to transfer info if so requested.

As far as I remember, that's nothing that wasn't done behind the scenes anyway, by the IRS, albiet only if larger sums of money were transferred.

Like I said, so far, my life hasn't really been affected by the PA.

The problem with the PA is that it is embodiment of the slippery slope.

As for robert's comment about illegal immegration. I'm just going to say that I think that most people living in Southern california have a higher chance that their lives will be impacted by illegal immegration than the PA.

Those are pretty much exactly the points I was trying to make.

Agreed on accepting SOME humilation IF it provides security. But what we've done is create a Travelers' System for Annoyance rather than any real security.

As for the bank's software purchase, trust me, that is just the TIP of the iceberg of what financial institutions have to do as part of PA compliance. Where the money would have ended up otherwise is anybody's guess; I don't particularly think the folks in Washington are better at guessing than my company's chairman/CEO.

The IRS wasn't allowed to share that information unless & until they had determined the money was being laundered. Now, an FBI agent can waltz into a branch and REQUIRE them to provide all sorts of info about us -- WITHOUT a subpoena. I guarantee you that's different from how it used to be.

[speaceman]

"That may be true but the real issue with the two is incrementalism. At the rate we are going, your kids are going to grow up in a country that has a devalued citizenship through its routine amnesty grants towards illegals as well as a police state in in terms of what the what the government can do to you. So frankly, if you really value the reasons why you procreated, you should absolutely think your life has been affected as much by the PA as illegal"

That maybe true. Unfortunately, I know that the PA isn't going to go away until the average citizen is more annoyed by the federal governement than they are afraid of the terrorists.

And iillegal immigration isn't going to go away until the average citizen is more annoyed with the federal government for not stopping it than they are with dealing with its issues on a daily basis.

The immigration issue has been builiding for around 20 years and just now, are we starting to see some groundswell building against it.

How long do you think annoyance against the PA is going to take to build up, if all we're looking at is taking off our shoes at the airport and filling out a boilerplate form when opening up a bank account?

That's all i'm saying. How do you propose to get rid of the PA act? Where is the pressure against congress to let it lapse going to come from?

[Robert J. Yates]

There is actually a fair amount of pressure being applied by folks on both sides of the political fence. For once I agree with the ACLU.

[cbassett]

Sorry to pee in your Wheeties Septi. I tend to meet animosity head-on. Thicken up a bit if you want to dish it.

Originally posted by Croaker Agreed on accepting SOME humilation IF it provides security. But what we've done is create a Travelers' System for Annoyance rather than any real security.

I don't much mind the added level of inspection. I fly, on average once or twice per month. IMHO, security in most stateside airports is a jock (relative to where it should be), that you could still smuggle a pack of naked gypsies riding a buffalo bareback through. I used to write to each and every administrator of the airport I flew through; I'd let them know the types of tools a routinely carry, often unknowingly as I absent-mindedly forgot to remove them from my laptop bag. Only the San Jose administrator ever bothered to reply and thank me. I imagine nowadays one of my letters would net me a task force to trace my IP, profile me as a potential threat (hey, at least my ex would have some company in that vein), and more trouble than good-intention deserve.
One of my favorite things to do, while plodding through the lines, is watch for the folks with boiling blood. When they really show signs of being aggravated, I like to smiiiiiiiiiiile at 'em. Usually garners a WTF?! Then when they start bitchin outloud, I really enjoy unloading the scoffing sounds and subtle head shakes.
Another fun thing to do is try putting on someone else's shoes. Especially fun if they happen to be 3" pumps belonging to the woman behind you.
Its fun to play with the TSA folks too: Put laptop in one tray, put PDA in another tray, put wallet in another tray, put one shoe in each tray.... they usually nip that one in the bud right quick.

[cbassett]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
For once I agree with the ACLU.

(choking on my Guinness) WHA??
Which part of their agenda do you agree with?

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by cbassett
(choking on my Guinness) WHA??
Which part of their agenda do you agree with?

To sundown the Patriot Act.

[cbassett]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
To sundown the Patriot Act.

Wholy sweeping generalizations Batman!

[Tumbleweed]

I just got a new book of deposit slips from my bank. Bilingual!
I thought our choice of language for the USA was English??
In Idaho, non-English speaking persons can get a drivers license if they have a translator with them for the written and driving portion of the test. They DO NOT have to be able to read or understand English to get the license. Hmmm, road signs comes to mind here? When is this going to stop? Oh, and ask a few of the illegals if they have insurance?
And Robert; I tend to agree with you here. I don't feel that any person that is in this country illegally should have any rights, especially rights from their own country. Americans sure won't get "American rights" in a foreign country if they are there illegally.

[TObject]

Originally posted by Tumbleweed
Americans sure won't get "American rights" in a foreign country if they are there illegally.

Sure we will.

[speaceman]

"Americans sure won't get "American rights" in a foreign country if they are there illegally."

I think the iraqi's feel differently about that.


(Sorry, I couldn't resist)

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Tumbleweed
I just got a new book of deposit slips from my bank. Bilingual!
I thought our choice of language for the USA was English??
In Idaho, non-English speaking persons can get a drivers license if they have a translator with them for the written and driving portion of the test. They DO NOT have to be able to read or understand English to get the license. Hmmm, road signs comes to mind here? When is this going to stop? Oh, and ask a few of the illegals if they have insurance?
And Robert; I tend to agree with you here. I don't feel that any person that is in this country illegally should have any rights, especially rights from their own country. Americans sure won't get "American rights" in a foreign country if they are there illegally.

There is no official language in the US. It's assumed incorrectly that because we see a lot of stuff in English, that it would be official.

[Tumbleweed]

Blaine, once again you are correct.
The House passed a bill in 1996 in favor of it, but the Senate did not act on the bill. Never became a law. However, 27 states have adopted English as the official state language. I learned something today.
My post above needs to be modified. I feel that illegal persons in this country deserve little rights, not "any" rights.

[cbassett]

Originally posted by Tumbleweed
I feel that illegal persons in this country deserve little rights, not "any" rights.

Those seeking political asylum aside (and those I'd take hard look at), I feel the only right we should extent to illegals is:

Would you like to walk or be carried back to the border?

[cbassett]

Originally posted by Tumbleweed
In Idaho, non-English speaking persons can get a drivers license if they have a translator with them for the written and driving portion of the test.

Idaho is a popular destination for those looking to quickly and easily get their drivers license. I know of folks, who've flown to the US, just to go to Idaho to get their drivers license, then flown back to their country to transfer the Idaho license into their local drivers license. These are U.S.-born, non-to-barely English speaking individuals, who grew up and still live in another country. They do this to get around the cost of obtaining a drivers license outright.

Which raises another issue... It's too damn easy to get a drivers license in this country!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by cbassett


Which raises another issue... It's too damn easy to get a drivers license in this country!!!!!!!!!!!!

It would be considerably harder if the test was only offered in the language the road signs are printed in.

How do you print "Bridge Out" in Farsi?

[Paradiddle]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
is your daily life affected by illegal immigration?

Only in a good way.

The next time all your hypocrites meet me at the lake bed NONE of you better have a product not made in the US by documented citizens, and you had better not have shopped at Walmart, Target, K-Mart, Sears, or any grocery store.

Money is the ENTIRE reason why illegals are tolerated and they are such an ingrained part of our nations economy that to remove them is a joke to suggest. No one on this board could afford to have them and their service removed ? we?d all be broke in a week. Plus, white guys just don?t work half as hard for the same pay?

License and tax them, or better yet dump income tax and go to a pure use tax - then everyone pays regardless of how they earn their money (hookers and drug dealers included).

PS - anyone ignorant to think they walk into hospitals and get free medical treatment all the time needs to stop believing everything they see on the news - trust me - today someone had to leave to pay cash for some medical care that should have been covered under their Medical - and they are a documented alien.

In addition - Don my already somewhat diminished opinion of you has gone even lower. To even jokingly remark that Shalom is a moron is beyond reproach.

And one more thing ? we are currently getting raped by our government (regardless of party) far harder then any illegal immigrant could hope to achieve ? like Robert said don?t take your eye off the ball (which is being shoved up you?re a$$ by the insanity and fear running this nation).

Jeff (A guy that actually has employees that may or may not be documented and ships products that you buy from stores where you shop that are not made in this nation by Americans)

PS ? I?m loading up my Garand?s and heading to Arizona for a Wetback Turkey Shoot next weekend ? who?s in!!!

[speaceman]

No one is saying, at least I"m not, that illegal immigration is happening with out a reason.

California has certainly had a long history of migrant workers and the federal governement used to have a migrant worker plan that made more sense, in that it was at least controlled, up intil the 1950's, I believe.

The main problem with the last 20 years, IMO, is that the states that directly accept the influx of illegal immigrants have reached a saturation point and that for those individual states, the costs of illegal immigration are starting to outweigh, or at least become more noticeable than the benefits. That is not to say that the rest of the country is not still recieving the economic benefit, if there is one.

It makes little sense to me, to allow anyone from mexico or central america to just walk over the border and tacitly say, welcome aboard and it's don't ask don't tell from this point on, when we turn people away from places like haiti or the dominican republic that make similar travels, albeit over water.

Why are the cargo container mail order chinese illegal immigrants turned away?

They made it here right? Maybe they should have shipped themselves into TJ instead, and the walked across the border, only I'd bet you anything the have a higher chance of being caught entering mexico by the federales than they do by the US customs.

The point is with a million people a year, or whatever the actual number is now, coming over the southern border, we, as a country, do not have an immigration policy at all, legal or illegal.

I'm the last person that is complaining about immigration. Immigration is needed. Both my parents immigrated here. I'm 2nd generation.

They still had to apply for a visa, get someone to sponser them, show that they had gainful employment. It was an orderly process, designed with checks to make sure they would not automatically become a drain on society once they arrived here and also to give time for society to absorb them in.

Why can't the federal government figure out how much cheap labor is needed every year and determine what portion of that should come from latin america, and then enforce the borders?

How does that not make sense?

High school students don't want to mop toilets? Fine. Why does an undocumented have to do it over a legal immigrant with a work visa ?

That is the part I'm not understanding.

And you can sing the praises of cheap labor this, and overpriced that, but I do also have experiences with illegal immigration due to my work and my wife's (elementary school teacher) and there is definitely a net cost to California, if not the nation, for importing what is essentially an parital underclass just so that we can have cheap labor.

It is that aspect of illegal immigration the federal government is ignoring that people are getting fed up dealing with.

[cbassett]

Originally posted by Paradiddle
PS - anyone ignorant to think they walk into hospitals and get free medical treatment all the time needs to stop believing everything they see on the news - trust me - today someone had to leave to pay cash for some medical care that should have been covered under their Medical - and they are a documented alien.

You're referring to the experience of a "documented alien". You're not speaking to the open door policy that will give treatment to anyone, including those with ficticious names, SSNs, and addresses where to send the bill.
I also know someone who's received medical aid. He's got documents: An illegally acquired SSN. Racked up >$17k in medical bills in 3 days. Hopefully he'll do make good on his debt.

[Paradiddle]

Originally posted by cbassett
You're referring to the experience of a "documented alien". You're not speaking to the open door policy that will give treatment to anyone, including those with ficticious names, SSNs, and addresses where to send the bill.
I also know someone who's received medical aid. He's got documents: An illegally acquired SSN. Racked up >$17k in medical bills in 3 days. Hopefully he'll do make good on his debt.

While I will not publically document that I may or may not have illegally documented workers here (as I only check for the paperwork the state says I can check for) - he had to pay cash before pre-natal care was given to his wife.

I also learned that you can get a new identity, with all pertenant papers for about $50 - much cheaper then I thought. Maybe I can dodge my debt by becoming Juan Valdez...

[mnjeeper]

Originally posted by Paradiddle

License and tax them, or better yet dump income tax and go to a pure use tax - then everyone pays regardless of how they earn their money (hookers and drug dealers included).

I love this idea. I would be all over a usage tax. There are issues there also, but it might be interesting to try. Would there be a usage tax on illegal services? (such as drugs and hookers)

Originally posted by Paradiddle

I also learned that you can get a new identity, with all pertenant papers for about $50 - much cheaper then I thought. Maybe I can dodge my debt by becoming Juan Valdez...

Not only would you dodge your debt, you would be my hero. I love your coffee

P.S. I think you'd probably be rich from the roayalties also....

[Matt Pascoe]

I allways find it odd when Juan Valdez tells me on Friday that he can no longer work for me, but on Monday his identical twin shows up as Juan Lopez (with all the correct documents) looking for work.



Lets assume that there is a large workforce using bogus SS#'s. What happens to all of the money they pay into Social Security, Medicare, State Disibility, etc?

I find it odd that with todays technology they dont catch all of the bogus SS#'s being used.

[DanB98TJ]

Originally posted by mnjeeper
Would there be a usage tax on illegal services? (such as drugs and hookers)

That's a different sort of "trickle down economics...."

I think very few - myself included - have any problem with people wanting to come to the US to better their lives. Heck, I'd most likely do the same if I were living in another country. But, there is a legal process in place to do so. I have nothing but respect for those that go through that process.

As far as those that come across the borders illegally, they are criminals, plain and simple. It shows a lack of regard for the laws of this country. They are simply motivated by money, most of which goes right back across the border to their "homeland," even when they are collecting public benefits. Let's see...since they are part of an organized group, committing crimes for financial gain, maybe they should be prosecuted under RICO.

I can understand the frustration those living along the border are feeling. The illegals cause so much damage to the areas they travel through, with no regard for private property or anything else. It's no wonder so many people showed up to participate....