Go Back   JeepBBS > Discussion Battleground > Jeep Friends Forum

Jeep Friends Forum This is a forum for jeep friends to hang out. For more formal atmosphere hop over to the Technical Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 6 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
  #61  
Old 05-13-2005, 07:19 PM
Robert A.M. Stephens Robert A.M. Stephens is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Whitefish, MT
Posts: 245
Quote:
Originally posted by Tumbleweed
Well, if anyone wants to really test this theory out-I have a set of 4-33x9.50 snow tires/ siped- mounted on 8" aftermarket TJ rims. I also have a set of chains available for one pair of them. Anyone that wants to ship them both ways can have them for this test. ( I need them back by about Oct 1) I expect shipping to be costly. Located in Boise, Idaho.
Better for the rims, I have 4 'farmer Jack' OEM 5.5" Jeep rims I'd ship too, if you handle the tires. These are the same rims as on VEX.
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens
26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin'
http://behold-the-rage.com
robert@behold-the-rage.com
406-755-9765
_______________________________
Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 05-13-2005, 07:40 PM
Robert A.M. Stephens Robert A.M. Stephens is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Whitefish, MT
Posts: 245
Quote:
Originally posted by Jeeper
Cool...can we talk about Revolvers now? Remember, that's how I ended up on this forum

Jeeper
Yes, yes, yes, yes yes, let's talk about Revolvers now for a moment.

"Now, listen, dude, I heard from my wife's cousin's niece, who heard it from her uncle's mom who found out her grandmother was running Revovler Shackles and they caught on fire and killed several of their own goats and burned the trailer and in the morning 100s were missing...........Don't use them, they are a gimmick and they unload on your dirveway and throw your rig on its top........."

God, I love the 'internet', if it ever could be called that again from what it once was.........

Let's 'Go For Throttle Up' with a Revolver chat.....
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens
26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin'
http://behold-the-rage.com
robert@behold-the-rage.com
406-755-9765
_______________________________
Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 05-13-2005, 08:20 PM
Jeeper Jeeper is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Arizona
Posts: 542
Quote:
Originally posted by Robert A.M. Stephens
Yes, yes, yes, yes yes, let's talk about Revolvers now for a moment.

"Now, listen, dude, I heard from my wife's cousin's niece, who heard it from her uncle's mom who found out her grandmother was running Revovler Shackles and they caught on fire and killed several of their own goats and burned the trailer and in the morning 100s were missing...........Don't use them, they are a gimmick and they unload on your dirveway and throw your rig on its top........."

God, I love the 'internet', if it ever could be called that again from what it once was.........

Let's 'Go For Throttle Up' with a Revolver chat.....
LOL! I can't tell you how many "discussions" I have been in regarding the use of revolvers....but your quotes somehow surmise them all !! Which I guess is why I reserve my opinion on the use of chains on pizza cutters until I see them in action!! Nothing like real world application and use from real world users.

Jeeper
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 05-13-2005, 08:41 PM
LeadFoot LeadFoot is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Jacksonsville, NC
Posts: 409
Send a message via AIM to LeadFoot
Maybe it's just me, but this is getting more and more technical. Maybe its the WV heritage....maybe its just because I am dumb teenie bopper. Whatever the reason, I would like to show my side.

This is my heep at Wellsville, OH doing a pose. I was running 10psi in them, and even 10 was too much for them. 5 psi was awesome. They are 35x15.50 sx's on 15x10 rims. As you can easily see, almost all of the 15.50 width is in contact with the ground (and thats at 10psi)



This is my dad's yj. Mild 2" lift, p235/75/15s on stock rims. 30 psi in the tires. Half of the left rear is touching the ground. Half of the right front is touching the ground. For my reasoning, tire height does not have anything to do with these two situations, correct? One is skinny, and one is wide.



So, what your trying to explain, is that that aired up skinny tire is giving MORE traction than the 15.50" wide one against the small bank? Give me a break..... Remember, chains don't count unless they are used in both applications. They are traction aids, and using them in only the skinny tires gives an unfair advantage, right? Kind of like having the answer key before the test.

And finally.....I KNOW the 35x15.50 sx's got a TON more traction at 5 psi verus 10-15. Know how? Because the broken parts bin got full real quick after I took em down even lower. That is my redneck testing.....tried and proven.
__________________
My Jeeps suck, but my bikes are pretty cool
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 05-14-2005, 12:57 AM
Robert A.M. Stephens Robert A.M. Stephens is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Whitefish, MT
Posts: 245
No. You're comparing two different applications. One, your tire is mushy and flat, your dad's tires is half on the ground since the Jeep can't put its feet on the ground due to a lack of flex.

How about this below; all the tires are on the ground, grabbing at something. And it was easier crawling onto that rock than it was for the wide, mushy, plump, 37s on the green TJ right beside it.





Can you see the difference in application between your dad's rig and mine in these two photos, for allowing the tire to grab and also have as much factor of adhesion as possible?
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens
26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin'
http://behold-the-rage.com
robert@behold-the-rage.com
406-755-9765
_______________________________
Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 05-14-2005, 01:06 AM
Robert A.M. Stephens Robert A.M. Stephens is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Whitefish, MT
Posts: 245
Quote:
Originally posted by Jeeper
LOL! I can't tell you how many "discussions" I have been in regarding the use of revolvers....but your quotes somehow surmise them all !! Which I guess is why I reserve my opinion on the use of chains on pizza cutters until I see them in action!! Nothing like real world application and use from real world users.

Jeeper
Hey Jeeper,

So, you've been there, done that?

Hahahahahahah, I love this medium.



BTW--Jeeper, you said you had ran them for 4 years before the SOA. Questions: when you were investigating them before purchase did you run into the same thing as myself hre on the net? Also, over that period before the SOA, how did they actually perfom for you, compared without, over the years you ran them?

For me, they are performing opposite of everything on the net in dissent against them.

For starters, they have made VEX even more stable on the road and manners are better than anything I had set up before. Off road, they don't unload ever. What they do is the opposite, with 10" of extra droop and flex, they keep VEX stablized and on the ground and make the ride about 3 times softer.

Coming down extremely steep and dangerous inclines, where they ae suppose to 'unload', allegedly, they do the opposite. In fact, coming down, with the rear ARB engaged, VEX is more stable than ever and they allow me to decend even steeper stuff.

Look forward to your comment.
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens
26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin'
http://behold-the-rage.com
robert@behold-the-rage.com
406-755-9765
_______________________________
Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 05-14-2005, 07:01 AM
Jeeper Jeeper is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Arizona
Posts: 542
Robert, I was probably one of the first people to use them. I purchased them within a month after they were advertised so I did not have the chance to read or discuss much about them. they just looked like they would work for my set up at the time.

I found them to be very useful and never saw or felt the unloading properties that so many people claim. Through uneven terrain the jeep was much more stable and stayed level. I have a few pics but they are not hosted anywhere, if you want I can send them to you.

Other claims are that since the revolvers release to allow for more drop, that there is no weight on the dropped tire, thus there is no traction. I say that a tire on the ground has more traction than one in the air!

Now, having said that, SOA is a different story! I did see a LOT of unloading of the Revolvers especially in the rear. I have a lot of axle wrap right now (soon to be fixed) and that may have a lot to do with it...I'll experiment again after the traction bar.

Jeeper
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 05-14-2005, 07:44 AM
Tumbleweed Tumbleweed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Boise, Id; USA
Posts: 1,113
Revolvers-my .02 worth.
80"wb flattie, light weight, 35's,SOA on very soft YJ springs.
Put a pair on the front springs only.
When approaching a 3' ledge, with that short of wb, you have two options-1: try to crawl up it as slow as possible 2: bump it to get the front over
#1 usually did not work as I would get hung up on skids
#2 usually scared the hell out of me when the front end went up
With the revolvers on, when I bumped it, the front end went up-then violently went up more when the revolvers opened-scaring the beejesus out of me. The tires may have been in contact with the ground, but the body was way up there and moved around like a trout on a line. I did not like that feeling and promptly removed the revolvers.
This was my experience with revolvers, and I feel was highly multiplied because of the extremely short wheelbase and very soft SOA springs.
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 05-14-2005, 09:28 AM
DsrtJeeper DsrtJeeper is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,034
Quote:
Originally posted by Robert A.M. Stephens
Hey Jeeper,

So, you've been there, done that?

Hahahahahahah, I love this medium.



BTW--Jeeper, you said you had ran them for 4 years before the SOA. Questions: when you were investigating them before purchase did you run into the same thing as myself hre on the net? Also, over that period before the SOA, how did they actually perfom for you, compared without, over the years you ran them?

For me, they are performing opposite of everything on the net in dissent against them.

For starters, they have made VEX even more stable on the road and manners are better than anything I had set up before. Off road, they don't unload ever. What they do is the opposite, with 10" of extra droop and flex, they keep VEX stablized and on the ground and make the ride about 3 times softer.

Coming down extremely steep and dangerous inclines, where they ae suppose to 'unload', allegedly, they do the opposite. In fact, coming down, with the rear ARB engaged, VEX is more stable than ever and they allow me to decend even steeper stuff.

Look forward to your comment.
Robert;
Once again you have me confused. When you replied to my last post; you claimed to not know what unloading was. Yet here; you use the term in the same manner as I did.
__________________
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely,
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting,
"...HOLY $HIT...what a ride!"
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 05-14-2005, 09:33 AM
DsrtJeeper DsrtJeeper is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,034
Quote:
Originally posted by Tumbleweed
Revolvers-my .02 worth.
80"wb flattie, light weight, 35's,SOA on very soft YJ springs.
Put a pair on the front springs only.
When approaching a 3' ledge, with that short of wb, you have two options-1: try to crawl up it as slow as possible 2: bump it to get the front over
#1 usually did not work as I would get hung up on skids
#2 usually scared the hell out of me when the front end went up
With the revolvers on, when I bumped it, the front end went up-then violently went up more when the revolvers opened-scaring the beejesus out of me. The tires may have been in contact with the ground, but the body was way up there and moved around like a trout on a line. I did not like that feeling and promptly removed the revolvers.
This was my experience with revolvers, and I feel was highly multiplied because of the extremely short wheelbase and very soft SOA springs.
Weight transfer on steep climbs is our enemy. Your experience is very much like running very tall coils. No weight on the frontend and the body seperates from the axle very quickly. The great example here is that the front tires may be touching the ground at the top of the ledge; yet they add no traction benefit. (Last sentence meant for "Jeeper.")
__________________
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely,
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting,
"...HOLY $HIT...what a ride!"
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 05-14-2005, 09:51 AM
DsrtJeeper DsrtJeeper is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,034
Robert;
Here I am on the waterfall at "Judgement Day." Is that vertical enough? Yes; I made it.

Notice the unloaded front suspension at full droop? That happens very quickly sometimes offering no traction on the front tires. This same thing often happens with Revolvers in the SOA configuration and with "Missing Links" as well. Sometimes added travel can hurt you. This is why you'll see dedicated trail rigs with a center mounted limiting strap that doesn't let the front end droop this far. Also on many buggies; they run a winch cable to the front diff and draw the nose down as needed to assist in climbs.


__________________
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely,
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting,
"...HOLY $HIT...what a ride!"
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 05-14-2005, 10:06 AM
DsrtJeeper DsrtJeeper is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,034
Robert;
Check out this thread for pics of waterfalls.

http://www.jeepbbs.net/forums/showth...threadid=9153;)
__________________
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely,
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting,
"...HOLY $HIT...what a ride!"
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 05-14-2005, 10:29 AM
Robert A.M. Stephens Robert A.M. Stephens is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Whitefish, MT
Posts: 245
Quote:
Originally posted by DsrtJeeper
Robert;
Once again you have me confused. When you replied to my last post; you claimed to not know what unloading was. Yet here; you use the term in the same manner as I did.
No, I understand the principle with the Revolver Shackles with leaf springs. I do not understand the principle of same with the coils as I never heard of that before and wanted more information on the latter. They are two distinctly different applications and and hardware.

Understand better? And if so, can you help me understand better as I'm a wannabe when it comes to the TJs but am fascinated with anything pertaining to them that I'm not in the loop on.
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens
26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin'
http://behold-the-rage.com
robert@behold-the-rage.com
406-755-9765
_______________________________
Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 05-14-2005, 10:33 AM
Jeeper Jeeper is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Arizona
Posts: 542
Quote:
Originally posted by DsrtJeeper
The great example here is that the front tires may be touching the ground at the top of the ledge; yet they add no traction benefit. (Last sentence meant for "Jeeper.")
I won't dispute that there is less traction, however, there is more than if they were completely off the ground. Also, my comment earlier about having a wheel on the ground as apposed to in the air is meant for not only steep inclines but traversing across cracks as well. The fact that revolvers allow for a wheel to drop further also means that the weight transfer keeps the rig at a more level position. You can see this effect in a very short video that Stu shot of me several years ago on Broken Arrow right after I installed the Revolvers. If someone can host it, I'll send it to them, its only 471kb.

Jeeper
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 05-14-2005, 10:36 AM
Robert A.M. Stephens Robert A.M. Stephens is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Whitefish, MT
Posts: 245
Quote:
Originally posted by Jeeper
Robert, I was probably one of the first people to use them. I purchased them within a month after they were advertised so I did not have the chance to read or discuss much about them. they just looked like they would work for my set up at the time.

I found them to be very useful and never saw or felt the unloading properties that so many people claim. Through uneven terrain the jeep was much more stable and stayed level. I have a few pics but they are not hosted anywhere, if you want I can send them to you.

Other claims are that since the revolvers release to allow for more drop, that there is no weight on the dropped tire, thus there is no traction. I say that a tire on the ground has more traction than one in the air!

Now, having said that, SOA is a different story! I did see a LOT of unloading of the Revolvers especially in the rear. I have a lot of axle wrap right now (soon to be fixed) and that may have a lot to do with it...I'll experiment again after the traction bar.

Jeeper
Quoting you and referencing Tumbleweed just above, and just below your post, so, the SOA set up you have now, you are still using the Revolver Shackle set up? How interesting. In their paper directions for 2005, they explicitly warn not to run the product on SOAs and Reversed Shackle set ups. I can understand this to a degree.

Why would you and Tumbleweed still use the RS with a SOA? This is very interesting to me.

Thanks in advance.
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens
26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin'
http://behold-the-rage.com
robert@behold-the-rage.com
406-755-9765
_______________________________
Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel
Reply With Quote
  #76  
Old 05-14-2005, 10:39 AM
Jeeper Jeeper is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Arizona
Posts: 542
Quote:
Originally posted by Robert A.M. Stephens
Quoting you and referencing Tumbleweed just above, and just below your post, so, the SOA set up you have now, you are still using the Revolver Shackle set up? How interesting. In their paper directions for 2005, they explicitly warn not to run the product on SOAs and Reversed Shackle set ups. I can understand this to a degree.

Why would you and Tumbleweed still use the RS with a SOA? This is very interesting to me.

Thanks in advance.
Robert, NO, I am no longer using the Revolvers...I tried them with SOA and immediately took them off! They were WAY too squirley! However, I may try them again after I finish the traction bar, roll cage tie-in to the frame, and new cross members. It doesn't hurt to experiment a little

Jeeper
Reply With Quote
  #77  
Old 05-14-2005, 10:41 AM
Robert A.M. Stephens Robert A.M. Stephens is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Whitefish, MT
Posts: 245
Forgot to add to 'Jeeper', yes, the tire drooped matters not, if it spins on something, it is going to contribute to forward motion, one way or another, you are totally correct. The law of resistive dynamic.......

A tire hanging in the air does nothing but hang in the air.
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens
26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin'
http://behold-the-rage.com
robert@behold-the-rage.com
406-755-9765
_______________________________
Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel
Reply With Quote
  #78  
Old 05-14-2005, 10:45 AM
Robert A.M. Stephens Robert A.M. Stephens is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Whitefish, MT
Posts: 245
Quote:
Originally posted by Jeeper
Robert, NO, I am no longer using the Revolvers...I tried them with SOA and immediately took them off! They were WAY too squirley! However, I may try them again after I finish the traction bar, roll cage tie-in to the frame, and new cross members. It doesn't hurt to experiment a little

Jeeper
Ah, gotcha, good thinking. If you use them (RS) with the track bar set up, that should be killer cool. It's odd, I've been thinking about the same thing with a custom track bar set up I've been playing with in my CAD program.

Experimenting is everything. You are correct on that one too........
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens
26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin'
http://behold-the-rage.com
robert@behold-the-rage.com
406-755-9765
_______________________________
Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel
Reply With Quote
  #79  
Old 05-14-2005, 10:53 AM
Robert A.M. Stephens Robert A.M. Stephens is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Whitefish, MT
Posts: 245
Quote:
Originally posted by DsrtJeeper
Robert;
Here I am on the waterfall at "Judgement Day." Is that vertical enough? Yes; I made it.

Notice the unloaded front suspension at full droop? That happens very quickly sometimes offering no traction on the front tires. This same thing often happens with Revolvers in the SOA configuration and with "Missing Links" as well. Sometimes added travel can hurt you. This is why you'll see dedicated trail rigs with a center mounted limiting strap that doesn't let the front end droop this far. Also on many buggies; they run a winch cable to the front diff and draw the nose down as needed to assist in climbs.


Yes, this is clear for me, as I've had many of the Jeeps past, including VEX, in these situations, but always had to come up and over the escarpment alone, generally winching if it was too steep. I've let VEX down 90' cliffs too with the rear winch, to prove cable trust hardware and winch brakes etc, but I don't bounce VEX much getting things ariborne. There is a time and place for power up, as you all know, but I avoid this as much as possible since I hate breaking stuff all day long.

I'm still not completely clear how the coils unload, per se', since there is no tension or spring wind up with the front end air borne like that in you photo, in that the suspension is just hanging at full droop in your case?

Also, if the Jeep then comes down, through the power up to get up and over, what is the downside of this and what purpose is a limiting strap if articulation is desired.

There's a common dynamic I am missing on this.

Thank you for taking the time with me on this.
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens
26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin'
http://behold-the-rage.com
robert@behold-the-rage.com
406-755-9765
_______________________________
Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel
Reply With Quote
  #80  
Old 05-14-2005, 10:59 AM
Robert A.M. Stephens Robert A.M. Stephens is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Whitefish, MT
Posts: 245
Quote:
Originally posted by Jeeper
I won't dispute that there is less traction, however, there is more than if they were completely off the ground. Also, my comment earlier about having a wheel on the ground as apposed to in the air is meant for not only steep inclines but traversing across cracks as well. The fact that revolvers allow for a wheel to drop further also means that the weight transfer keeps the rig at a more level position. You can see this effect in a very short video that Stu shot of me several years ago on Broken Arrow right after I installed the Revolvers. If someone can host it, I'll send it to them, its only 471kb.

Jeeper
Jeeper, I want that vid really badly and I'll host and post with credit on the Revolver Test page at Behold. Any other photos you have I'd like to include, as these things have gotten such a nasty wrap and in effect, it just isn't so. I hope maybe Tumbleweed may have some application photos also.

The SOA and the RSs is a bad combo, apparently, but I cannot know this as I've never tried it and have never seen it but by both you and Tumbleweed's description, it sure makes sense. Good thing to take caution with then.
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens
26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin'
http://behold-the-rage.com
robert@behold-the-rage.com
406-755-9765
_______________________________
Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel
Reply With Quote
  #81  
Old 05-14-2005, 11:06 AM
Robert A.M. Stephens Robert A.M. Stephens is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Whitefish, MT
Posts: 245
Quote:
Originally posted by Jeeper
Robert, I was probably one of the first people to use them. I purchased them within a month after they were advertised so I did not have the chance to read or discuss much about them. they just looked like they would work for my set up at the time.

I found them to be very useful and never saw or felt the unloading properties that so many people claim. Through uneven terrain the jeep was much more stable and stayed level. I have a few pics but they are not hosted anywhere, if you want I can send them to you.

Other claims are that since the revolvers release to allow for more drop, that there is no weight on the dropped tire, thus there is no traction. I say that a tire on the ground has more traction than one in the air!

Now, having said that, SOA is a different story! I did see a LOT of unloading of the Revolvers especially in the rear. I have a lot of axle wrap right now (soon to be fixed) and that may have a lot to do with it...I'll experiment again after the traction bar.

Jeeper
Again, anything pertaining to the RS hardware, for others to help in gaining information, I'll gladly host them at Behold. Please email me at:

robert@behold-the-rage.com

Also, send your real name and such so I can salutate properly. Other than my pages now, there is nothing about them for fact on the net, just so much bullsh*t.........as you know.

Thanks a million.
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens
26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin'
http://behold-the-rage.com
robert@behold-the-rage.com
406-755-9765
_______________________________
Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 05-14-2005, 11:33 AM
DsrtJeeper DsrtJeeper is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,034
Quote:
Originally posted by Robert A.M. Stephens
Yes, this is clear for me, as I've had many of the Jeeps past, including VEX, in these situations, but always had to come up and over the escarpment alone, generally winching if it was too steep. I've let VEX down 90' cliffs too with the rear winch, to prove cable trust hardware and winch brakes etc, but I don't bounce VEX much getting things ariborne. There is a time and place for power up, as you all know, but I avoid this as much as possible since I hate breaking stuff all day long.

I'm still not completely clear how the coils unload, per se', since there is no tension or spring wind up with the front end air borne like that in you photo, in that the suspension is just hanging at full droop in your case?

Also, if the Jeep then comes down, through the power up to get up and over, what is the downside of this and what purpose is a limiting strap if articulation is desired.

There's a common dynamic I am missing on this.

Thank you for taking the time with me on this.
What you can't see in this picture is that the driver's front is on the ground with no coil pressure or weight on it. It just sat there and spun and danced around. As the rear tires heated up from slow spinning; I gained forward momentum and the front dropped down and both tires were then on terra firma.

The unloading of coils is really no different than leafs. It all has to do with weight transfer. You reach the point of no return as you become more and more vertical to where the weight bias is shifted to the rear wheels. At this point; the front suspension is "unloaded" and has no downward pressure on the front tires.

You asked about cutout size on our typical trails. Let's just say that more than a few trails around here could use a 40" tire to climb out of these. You also asked why not go around the obstacle. Unfortunately; this not only takes the challenge away, but also many trails have no bypasses. One trail comes to mind and is named "Collateral Damage." Once you start; you are comitted. The whole trail is in a deep wash with tall vertical walls on both sides. There is no turning around.

A center mounted limiting strap will not hurt articulation. The axle can still pivot at the center mounting point of the strap. It works quite well. If you apply this same principle to the rear of Vex; you'll find that your axle won't walk forward under bind, yet it can still articulate.
__________________
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely,
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting,
"...HOLY $HIT...what a ride!"
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 05-14-2005, 12:42 PM
DsrtJeeper DsrtJeeper is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,034
Quote:
Originally posted by Robert A.M. Stephens


Lastly, in the very latest issue of JP magazine, questionable tome that it is, they finally finished their old retro CJ-6 with the Buick 225 V-6 (greatest off road engine ever made!!!!!!!!!) and stock pizza cutters on 5.5" rims (like VEX's). Thus, in their report, said, "with the narrow stock tire retreads I was amazed at the traction I got and the places I could go........" Really? What a thought? And from JP magazine no less.....

Duh.

Quoted from the July issue of JP magazine on page 54 in regards to the above referred CJ-6 project.

"More surprising was how well the High-Tec Retread mud tires worked. The lugs are super soft, and with the tires aired down to 8 psi, they grabbed like crazy."

Now that folks is the rest of the story.

Me wonders how an even wider tire aired down might have done. This and the fact that they did air down for a larger footprint.
__________________
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely,
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting,
"...HOLY $HIT...what a ride!"
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 05-14-2005, 12:49 PM
DsrtJeeper DsrtJeeper is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 1,034
Robert;
Check out page 68 of the July issue of 4 Wheel & Off-Road. See picture #2. Take note of the center mounted limiting strap on the front of the tubed out Samurai. See how nice his frontend sits with no extra weight added to frontend? That is one steep and nasty obstacle that flops over it's share of 4x4's. Keep in mind that the Samurai tubed out probably weighs in at less than 2000lbs. How do I know this? I built one!

http://community.webshots.com/user/dsrtjeeper
__________________
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely,
in a well preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways,
totally worn out, shouting,
"...HOLY $HIT...what a ride!"
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 05-14-2005, 02:43 PM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Dana Point, CA USA
Posts: 7,988
The reason that coils are more of a problem when you remove their normal load from them is that they have more travel typically and can dramatically shift your CoG.

Unloading is simply that. Remove load, spring gets taller, add load spring gets shorter.

At anything other than parallel to the ground on a flat surface, no spring is carrying it's normal share of the load. The load will be distributed according to the variations in the surface the tires are sitting on.

The greater the difference in heights, the more load an individual spring has to carry.

Coil link suspensions will attempy to balance until they run out of travel in either direction. Diagonally, if two springs are fully compressed and the other two are fully drooped, the total weight of the rig is being supported by two springs.

Same thing happens front to rear. The nearer to 90 degrees you get the frame with the front higher, the more load is carried by the rear springs until such a point that the entire weight is compressing the rear springs. That means the fronts are fully extended and carrying no portion of the vehicle's weight or unloaded.
__________________
I am Savvy.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 05-14-2005, 02:55 PM
Jeeper Jeeper is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Arizona
Posts: 542
mrblaine,

I agree with you completely about the front unloading on an incline, however, I would also add that as you near a 90' angle, not all of the weight is distributed to the rear springs alone. a percentage of that weight will also be on the control arms. I obviously have not tested this but at 90', the weight is resting on the very rear of the tire, or if you were looking at it at a level position, a 45' angle to the rear. That weight and stress would be transfered from the springs to the control arms in a proportional manner to the incline.

OK...been thinking about this too much...disregard unless this ads to the conversation

Jeeper
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 05-14-2005, 04:29 PM
Tumbleweed Tumbleweed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Boise, Id; USA
Posts: 1,113
Robert, this is the ledge where I scared myself silly with RS. This pic is without RS, after a quick bump. I made it though-on the 4th attempt. A stock Rubicon walked right over it-wheelbase is your friend on ledges. He did drag his skids some, and did not have to bump it. Sorry, I don't have a pic of the RS on this ledge.
Double click image for larger one.

Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 05-14-2005, 06:02 PM
Robert A.M. Stephens Robert A.M. Stephens is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Whitefish, MT
Posts: 245
Quote:
Originally posted by Tumbleweed
Robert, this is the ledge where I scared myself silly with RS. This pic is without RS, after a quick bump. I made it though-on the 4th attempt. A stock Rubicon walked right over it-wheelbase is your friend on ledges. He did drag his skids some, and did not have to bump it. Sorry, I don't have a pic of the RS on this ledge.
Double click image for larger one.

Part of that is, as you metnioned, as myself have gone up things like that and steeper at a crawl, but I understand with the RS, and a very short rig like CJ-2A and so on, this is a problem, with or without RSs.

Good pict.
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens
26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin'
http://behold-the-rage.com
robert@behold-the-rage.com
406-755-9765
_______________________________
Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 05-14-2005, 07:30 PM
Robert A.M. Stephens Robert A.M. Stephens is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Whitefish, MT
Posts: 245
Quote:
Originally posted by mrblaine
The reason that coils are more of a problem when you remove their normal load from them is that they have more travel typically and can dramatically shift your CoG.

Unloading is simply that. Remove load, spring gets taller, add load spring gets shorter.

At anything other than parallel to the ground on a flat surface, no spring is carrying it's normal share of the load. The load will be distributed according to the variations in the surface the tires are sitting on.

The greater the difference in heights, the more load an individual spring has to carry.

Coil link suspensions will attempy to balance until they run out of travel in either direction. Diagonally, if two springs are fully compressed and the other two are fully drooped, the total weight of the rig is being supported by two springs.

Same thing happens front to rear. The nearer to 90 degrees you get the frame with the front higher, the more load is carried by the rear springs until such a point that the entire weight is compressing the rear springs. That means the fronts are fully extended and carrying no portion of the vehicle's weight or unloaded.
I understand now. Whether it is the leafs or the coils, what you are all referencing is not so much the actual act of 'unloading', or the release of energy, but the change of apparent CoG, at times on very steep inclines, the CoG apparent is actually behind the Jeep a few feet or more.

Ah, yes, the bane of short wheelbased vehicles approaching vertical.

This is an age old problem but dynamics suggest the coil will be more prone to this than a leaf, since the leaf has two ends still attached physically to the Jeep at each spring, thus, still has 8 point contacts with the Jeep.

The converse, the coil, has none, it attaches to nothing and therefore when the excessive articulation occurs as the vehicle nears vertical, the axle is literally laying there. And that is the term you are using for 'unloading'. And as Jeeper pointed out, the control arms are still taking some of this stress-unloading transfer to the rear.

I understand now.

Engineering wise, I've discovered the first weakness in my hero of all Jeeps, the TJ marque, by this discussion. I'll be damned--I never thought of the lose, unattached coil spring as the means of transferring to weight to wheel, via unloading on vertical. And this is the issue with your TJs in climbing those vertical escarpments. The leaf is prone to this too, but far less so. How intriguing.

My compensation for this was always to put more weight, one way or another, over the front.

Thanks for all your timely and exahustive documentation on this. Too, for one never having a TJ and not Jeeping around them with the same application as VEX, this is new to me and now understood. I've never had a coiled spring equipped anything, ever........

I also now see the need for the limiting straps, the tiny winches sucking the axle and frame together, etc. It is the coils. Obviously. A quarter eliptic leaf would do the same in part, to a lesser degree.

Everything is a trade-off in applied dynamic.

What a cool learning curve..............
__________________
Robert A.M. Stephens
26 Jeeps-40 years of Jeepin and countin'
http://behold-the-rage.com
robert@behold-the-rage.com
406-755-9765
_______________________________
Have Jeep, Have Heart, Will Travel
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 05-14-2005, 08:36 PM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Dana Point, CA USA
Posts: 7,988
Quote:
Originally posted by Robert A.M. Stephens
I understand now. Whether it is the leafs or the coils, what you are all referencing is not so much the actual act of 'unloading', or the release of energy, but the change of apparent CoG, at times on very steep inclines, the CoG apparent is actually behind the Jeep a few feet or more.

Ah, yes, the bane of short wheelbased vehicles approaching vertical.

This is an age old problem but dynamics suggest the coil will be more prone to this than a leaf, since the leaf has two ends still attached physically to the Jeep at each spring, thus, still has 8 point contacts with the Jeep.

The converse, the coil, has none, it attaches to nothing and therefore when the excessive articulation occurs as the vehicle nears vertical, the axle is literally laying there. And that is the term you are using for 'unloading'. And as Jeeper pointed out, the control arms are still taking some of this stress-unloading transfer to the rear.

I understand now.

Engineering wise, I've discovered the first weakness in my hero of all Jeeps, the TJ marque, by this discussion. I'll be damned--I never thought of the lose, unattached coil spring as the means of transferring to weight to wheel, via unloading on vertical. And this is the issue with your TJs in climbing those vertical escarpments. The leaf is prone to this too, but far less so. How intriguing.

My compensation for this was always to put more weight, one way or another, over the front.

Thanks for all your timely and exahustive documentation on this. Too, for one never having a TJ and not Jeeping around them with the same application as VEX, this is new to me and now understood. I've never had a coiled spring equipped anything, ever........

I also now see the need for the limiting straps, the tiny winches sucking the axle and frame together, etc. It is the coils. Obviously. A quarter eliptic leaf would do the same in part, to a lesser degree.

Everything is a trade-off in applied dynamic.

What a cool learning curve..............
The TJ is or can be very vexing in regard to understanding some of it's idiosyncrasies. The left front pick mentioned earlier is one and that is somewhat easily dealt with as is the unloading with some swaybars and shock selection.

One of the bigger advantages of the rebuildable shocks is the ability to run different valving. Mine are set up to compress quite easily, and extend very slowly or slowly compared to the compression rate. That slows the unloading down considerably if you can drive through something.
__________________
I am Savvy.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
We are not affiliated with Chrysler LLC. Jeep is a registered trademark of Chrysler LLC.
©2001 - 2016, jeepbbs.net. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy