Enough is Enough

[William]

Originally posted by rock*crawler
I am offended when I see shopping centers with signs only Cheneese.

Yeah, those durn cheneese.. All the people from Chena should go back to Chenaville, and thier capital Beegin!

(Making fun of your spelling of Chinese.)

[cbassett]

Originally posted by rock*crawler
I came to this country about 5 years ago, I'm not a citizen yet (there's 5 million illegal Mexicans in line in front of me at INS).

I missed this comment first go-round...
Do you refer to yourself as an "illegal Russian"?
With regards to citizenship and the other immigrants you meet at INS, what makes you different from the '5 million Mexicans'.
Most illegals don't bother with INS, until INS bothers with them. I suspect the people you seem to be indicating some intolerance of are no different than you in your quest for citizenship.

It's discouraging to see immigrant groups/minorities display intolerance for other groups/minorities, but it happens alot. I see it nearly every day. I have folks close to me that do it. I can't understand it.
A relative of mine is half Mexican/ half Caucasian American; He has utter contempt for black or asian people as a rule.
My best friend throughout school was 100% Korean. He hated nearly everyone that wasn't korean (or red-haired female).

If your comment was purely statistical in nature, then disregard my post. However, you may want to look for a less busy INS office.

[Jay]

Frank, your absolutely right there are different sides or views to what I said. Or to every story for that matter. Some may agree and some may not. Those were just my thoughts, and I felt like venting. And were else could be a better place. I'm not venting today or I could respond a bit on your view. But I think others did quite well.

[TObject]

Originally posted by cbassett
Do you refer to yourself as an "illegal Russian"?

Didn't you know? rock*crawler is an illegal Russian immigrant living in Los Angeles. He runs a lucrative and violent crime ring. He is as white as white can be, wears Armani, drives a BMW, speaks no English and uses food stamps to buy his groceries

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by TObject
Didn't you know? rock*crawler is an illegal Russian immigrant living in Los Angeles. He runs a lucrative and violent crime ring. He is as white as white can be, wears Armani, drives a BMW, speaks no English and uses food stamps to buy his groceries

are the food stamps printed in English?

[TObject]

Yes they are. Otherwise it would be really offensive.

[cbassett]

Originally posted by TObject
Didn't you know? rock*crawler is an illegal Russian immigrant living in Los Angeles. He runs a lucrative and violent crime ring. He is as white as white can be, wears Armani, drives a BMW, speaks no English and uses food stamps to buy his groceries

Lucrative and violent? Some people have all the luck!

[underDAWG]

Originally posted by mrblaine
Mens I verdsetter Deres st?tte av min venn, tror I at ha oversette nichts inn i enda et spr?k kj?rer likevel et land. Hva er gal med ? l?re spr?ket av landet. Er ikke veiskiltene i English?

My goodness, mrblaine not only knows how to drive an automatics, weld, use plasma cutter, and he knows hub conversion, relocating shocks, and most importantly he is Multilingual . I can't compete with that, I am selling my Jeep

[Tumbleweed]

Frank, I enjoyed your reply. As for me; I will reply with an acronym that you can relate to.

HUA!

Don

[Daless2]

Hi folks, and good evening to all,

Isn't it wonderful to be able to hold an intelligent conversation with people of different views without ripping each others throats out?

That said;

Hmmmm.....


Blaine, if I did write my little dissertation in Italian I am sure of two things.

#1. It would have had an impact on those of us who do not understand Italian to understand my point of view, and

#2. I am quite certain it would not have made me any less of an American!


The operatives in the two above facts are different. In the first we are talking about my inability to communicate effectively with folks that I want to impart an idea to.

In the second we are talking about my oath as a citizen of America.

While not mutually exclusive, these two operative facts are not related in any way.


To take that to an extreme, lets say I could not speak at all, but required "sign" to communicate. I think if that were the case we would have basically the same two factual statements;

#1. It would have had an impact on those of us who do not understand "sign" to understand my point of view, and

#2. I am quite certain it would not make me any less of an American!


I think your point on why immigrants join the armed services is very valid. There are many reasons, which I am sure cover the spectrum just as they do for the vast majority who are already Americans by birth right.

I am not of the school that says there are two classes of citizen in the country. There is only one class, the American Class, without regard to military service or not.

But I do give points to people who come to this country and join the service (for all the same reasons that Americans do). Kinda makes me think these folks, these immigrants are giving of themselves to an adopted country. In truth over my years in the service I have witness the pleasure of seeing this many times. And indeed it is a pleasure.


I am not opposed to encouraging folks to learn English.

I am however opposed to the often misstated "as FACT" that somewhere in this great land there is some LAW that says immigrants Must Learn English.

There isn't one folks! Get over it! And there is no Constitutional Amendment that requires it either.

There are obviously many good reasons for all of us to speak a common language, but that does not mean it is a "Have To".

In reality it is a "Want To" from a lot of English speaking folks who "desire" to make it a "Have To"

Did I misstate anything there?



Hey Ron,

I really like that quote of Teddy Roosevelt. It is one of my favorites.

He goes on later in that statement to talk about and warn about Hyphenated Americans, like Italian-American, or African-American, and all other such hyphenations.

Fortunately of all of us, we live in America, were a great President like Teddy R. can express his views and provide his guidance and we, the people get to decide if we care to take it or not. Much like this forum. Lots of views, lots of opinions, some fit, other don't, life is good, and life goes on.

In the Teddy R. quote he says;

But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American and nothing but an American. If he tries to keep segregated with men of his own origin and separated from the rest of America, then he isn't doing his part as an American.
There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American but something else also, isn't an American at all.

I interpret this to mean that Teddy R. would indeed be opposed to the idea (and Laws) of America that allow American Citizens to ALSO be Citizens of Israel.

I don't know, what do you think? Would he support this or not in his argument?

I mean how can there be dual allegiance? To two different countries? Two Oaths of Loyalty? No one seams to object to this? Yet we object to two languages???

(Is something above a bit more relevant to American Citizenship then something else?) I really think there is!

Yes folks, there are indeed Actual Laws in America that allow American's to hold dual citizenship with Israel. Doesn't that upset anyone? It does me, far more then language.


I do NOT believe Americans should be Citizens of Any Other Country, especially a Religious State. I think in citizenship we should be made to Choose, one or the other, not both (just like Teddy R.)


Thanks for that quote Ron. It does indeed make the point that simply becuase a Great American said something doesn't mean it is fact and certainly doesn't mean it should be swallowed hook, line, and sinker all the time.



Hey Bruce,

I really liked your post! Sometimes the truth just can't be held back!

Not sure many people know this, but in addition to those things which may or may not be lacking in the french they do have something we in America do not have.

They have a "Ministry of the Language" with real live honest to god Language Police, who give people tickets, like parking violations when they mis-speak french (Sorry I can not bring myself to capitalize that.)

Can you imagine. I mean here you are, hands up in the air and as you are saying "I surrender" someone yells out "STOP" and give you a 45 franc ticket for not saying it properly!

There is a God! Thank you God! Thank you for letting me grow up in America as an American and not in france!!!!




Hi Robert,

I think your family efforts to assimilate themselves in learning the luggage is a great and admirable action on their part, and no doubt on the part of millions of other who have come to America, yet I don't see this as a test of someone's Ethics. How could it be?

Desire? Yes!
Want? Yes!
Choice? Yes!

Perhaps even something that society "Expected" of immigrates to do.

But I can assure you, there was "No Requirement" for them or anyone else to do so to become an American Citizen. It's called Free Choice and the Pursuit of Happiness and I am sure their rightfully earned pride too!

Yet I think your discussion of ethics or how things have changed over the years has a lot of validity.

It used to be woman didn't have babies out of wedlock.
It used to be marriage for the vast majority of folks was a commitment for live and not of convenience!
It use to be dropping out of school was a big no-no, and that parents instilled some discipline in their children before shipping them off to the baby sitting service which we now call school.

I am sure we could ll come up with a long list here.

I would also think within the time span that your grandparents came to America, and became citizens, it also was OK (By LAW) to prevent Black American's from Voting.


I think if we allow ourselves we can find lots of thinks have changed. Some for the better, and some for the worse, based on OUR OWN moral and ethical judgments, not my moral or ethical judgment of you or of you for me. We are all individually responsible for these changes.


As society changes, so do we and what is acceptable and expected. Yet I think too there are some things that should never be allowed to change. Majority can not Rule in all cases. Some things are Guaranteed to all, including just ONE.

(Ethics to me, along with integrity, are those personal qualities people demonstrate when no one else is looking.)



I understand your point about the multi-lingual documents and phone systems, and Yes I would have to say there certainly is a cost to society in general to make these multi-lingual systems available, yet I would suggest there is a benefit to society in general too.

When you enable people to understand your message by accommodating them with multi-lingual systems, then your message gets across and understood. Now, if your message has any value to it, having it understood is a good thing isn't it? Nor does this take away from anyone else. Everyone benifits.

But folks, don't think this is limited to multi-lingual forms and system. Look at the US Government forms. Believe it or not they are required BY LAW to be written at the 8 grade reading level.

Why?

Could it be to enable a larger majority of people to be able to understand them? I think that's the motive behind it, what do you think?

I would also think that there is some cost associated with doing this. How much? I don't know.

Is there any benefit? I think it is safe to say there is. Certainly more American's can understand material written at the 8th grade level then could understand the same material written at the 12th grade or doctorial level.

I think the objective, and the motivation, as implemented does costs tax payer dollars. I also think ensuring a larger group of folks can understand the message this way. But I could be wrong.


There is no righte or wrong in any of this, yet I do appreciate the thought provoking nature of this topic and the opinions as expressed by everyone.

Have a great night folks.

Frank

[TObject]

This is a very interesting subject. I've read a book several years ago, "Starship Troopers" by Robert A. Heinlein that goes in dept on this very same matter.

I personally will bear arms on behalf of the US or perform other services when required. Do we have anyone here who wouldn't?

[cbassett]

I don't think the decision to bear arms should rest on a matter of citizenship. Personally, I would bear arms for anyone were I to deem it necessary, regardless of my or their nationality.

[rock*crawler]

Originally posted by cbassett
....However, you may want to look for a less busy INS office.

i did, i moved to Reno from Bay Area.

i am not "illegal Russian", i have entered this country legally.

what ticks me off is that a lot of illegals suck of the system, while on the other hand multi-generation Americans are being passed over by the system, because they are not "minority".

[rock*crawler]

Originally posted by TObject
Didn't you know? rock*crawler is an illegal Russian immigrant living in Los Angeles. He runs a lucrative and violent crime ring. He is as white as white can be, wears Armani, drives a BMW, speaks no English and uses food stamps to buy his groceries

it's a Mercedes, not BMW.

[rock*crawler]

Originally posted by cbassett
Why would these two items offend you?

What do the above two items have to do with federal/state law?

because i am in America. i wouldn't expect to go to any other country and demand the system to cater to me inability to speak that country's language.

if you were to move to Russia you wouldn't be American Russian, but here you can be "whatever you want-American". political correctness and racial profiling in this country will not lead this country to anything great.

[TJRON]

Originally posted by Daless2

I am however opposed to the often misstated "as FACT" that somewhere in this great land there is some LAW that says immigrants Must Learn English.
There isn't one folks! Get over it! And there is no Constitutional Amendment that requires it either.

Immigrants don't have to learn English but if they want to become citizens, they have to pass this test, which is only given in English.

Hey Ron,
In the Teddy R. quote he says;

But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American and nothing but an American. If he tries to keep segregated with men of his own origin and separated from the rest of America, then he isn't doing his part as an American.
There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American but something else also, isn't an American at all.

I interpret this to mean that Teddy R. would indeed be opposed to the idea (and Laws) of America that allow American Citizens to ALSO be Citizens of Israel.
I don't know, what do you think? Would he support this or not in his argument?

I interpet the above as there should not be Italian/Americans, Afro/Americans blah blah. We can only be Americans of another heritage. I would be an American of Swedish heritage.
NO, I think Teddy would not approve of dual citizenship.
I don't know enough about it to have an opinion.

There are no special rules for US/Israel dual citizenship. Israel just doesn't care if you give up your citizenship to become an Israel citizen.

I mean how can there be dual allegiance? To two different countries? Two Oaths of Loyalty? No one seams to object to this? Yet we object to two languages???

(Is something above a bit more relevant to American Citizenship then something else?) I really think there is!

It is relevant, but also another subject.

Yes folks, there are indeed Actual Laws in America that allow American's to hold dual citizenship with Israel. Doesn't that upset anyone? It does me, far more then language.

Again, as far as I can tell, there are no special rules for Israel.

I do NOT believe Americans should be Citizens of Any Other Country, especially a Religious State. I think in citizenship we should be made to Choose, one or the other, not both (just like Teddy R.)

I tend to agree but don't know that much about other's reasons for dual citizenship.

[William]

Originally posted by rock*crawler
political correctness and racial profiling in this country will not lead this country to anything great.

While I don't care for either in most respects, and in other aspects I think they may be needed, I will say this.

This country, with those defeciences as you've noted, sure is a lot greater than any other country with or with out those.

And I challenge you to name a better one.

[Paradiddle]

Originally posted by TObject
This is a very interesting subject. I've read a book several years ago, "Starship Troopers" by Robert A. Heinlein that goes in dept on this very same matter.

That is a great book - so much better than that crappy movie they put out.

Jeff

[rock*crawler]

Originally posted by William
While I don't care for either in most respects, and in other aspects I think they may be needed, I will say this.

This country, with those defeciences as you've noted, sure is a lot greater than any other country with or with out those.

And I challenge you to name a better one.

you will not find a better country to live in. but this country also was not founded on political correctness and if it were, i don't think USA would be where it is now.

it is "United we stand" and "One nation, under God, indivisible" that took USA to being a greatest country. when you try to divide people into groups, that's where the troubles begin.

[William]

Originally posted by rock*crawler
but this country also was not founded on political correctness and if it were, i don't think USA would be where it is now.

Actually, it was founded on treating all religions as equalls, as people left Europe to escape un fair treatment.

Now, unfair treatment is balled into political correctness.

Adversity is what has made us stronger.

[TJRON]

Originally posted by rock*crawler
and "One nation, under God, indivisible"

The "under God" part was added when I was in grammer school in the 50s.

[TJRON]

First written and used on October 12, 1892:

I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the republic for which it stands: one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

[TObject]

Originally posted by rock*crawler
it's a Mercedes, not BMW.

I am sorry. Of course. It's a Mercedes 600, and Gucci.
NYET!!!!...I no ware Armani!....I rock the Gucci!...DAH!

[Hellbender]

I can read English, but only speak Hillbilly, I can't understand anyone from the New Joisy or New Yark area (as I learned when I was out east in OBC), but I think it's fair, because they can't understand me either.

I can understand the western folks pretty good, but I don't know what they think about me, they are a little more discreet than the typical NY'er... "DAMN! Are you from Arkansas or Missouri?, Say that S L O W!"

[cbassett]

Originally posted by rock*crawler
because i am in America. i wouldn't expect to go to any other country and demand the system to cater to me inability to speak that country's language.

You shouldn't go to any other country and demand anything.

You are offended because in the USA a "cheneese" person can put their OWN business sign in whatever language they please?? Perhaps you'd be happier in Quebec, where the Language Police enforce a law which allows English on outdoor commercial signs only if the French lettering is at least twice as large as the English.
And you are offended because you have the OPTION (they're not "telling" you to do anything) of listening to some automated phone systems in Spanish? Why?

Originally posted by rock*crawler
if you were to move to Russia you wouldn't be American Russian, but here you can be "whatever you want-American".

Yes, here, in the U.S.A. you can be whatever you want to be. We do not force Chinese proprietors to display their signage in English. We do provide language translation OPPORTUNITIES to the 2nd largest spoken language within our borders.

I'm sure comparisons between U.S. and Russia business practices and ethnic group/racial profiling could be an interesting discussion indeed.

[TObject]

Originally posted by cbassett
You shouldn't go to any other country and demand anything.

[skip]

Yes, here, in the U.S.A. you can be whatever you want to be...

Can you be a demanding son of a bitch?

[cbassett]

Only as long as you list your demands in 17 different languages!