Are all rocks the same?

[mrblaine]

Dion has good naturedly accused me of not knowing one rock from another. I am going to assume from his responses that he feels that all rocks are the same and therefore by default, a tire that works on one rock will work on another.

My observations.

SW NM- a lot of sedimentary type stuff. Fossilized mud, lots of limestone. Lots and lots of ledges. High quantity of broken edges that are sharp and hunt for sidewalls.

Traction is good if you don't have dirt or sand above getting kicked down.

LCIR- Mostly decomposed granite in various stages of decomposition ranging from crumbly to very hard and semi-slick. Difficult to cut a tire on.

Traction is very high with the exception of dug out places from no locker rigs digging holes.

Big Bear- Lots of granite with some other sort of igneous tossed in that I can't identify.

Good traction with just about any tire. Some of the granite is decomposed and softer tending to wear off into shallow ruts. The more decomposed stuff is notorious for turning into a sandy layer on top of the traction surface making it very slick.

Moab- Fossilized sand. Superior traction in every aspect on most of the stuff. You can make street tires work there. Slickrock is a likely candidate for the biggest misnomer there is.

Johnson Valley- Lots and lots of igneous stuff on most of the trails. Medium to little traction due to very smooth and slick looking surfaces. Decent quantity of sharp edges, tires need a high level of lateral traction to hold difficult lines.

Some trails have high quality granite on them with good traction.

Discussion? I do pay attention to the types of rocks I play on. I just don't know if it makes a huge difference, but some are definitely easier to play on than others.

It is impossible to ascertain the value of something until you have paid for it a few times.

[Scott Hill]

Blaine,

That is a big description of the local geology. I was told by the geologists I used to work with that there are only 2 types of rocks, brown rocks and NOT brown rocks. that makes it realy easy to tell what you are driving on.

But I would say that a tire that sticks to one usually sticks to the rest of them.

a little TJ with a few mods check her out at www.real-jeeps.com

[Hellbender]

My rocks (mostly limestone) have been exposed to the elements a little longer than yours and have been beaten by time into little, microscopic rocks and have been mixed with lots of organic matter and, usually; water, which comes from the sky in the form of something called "rain" (CA guys-look it up), which, for the last month or so, has happened on an almost daily basis. This mixes to form a sticky mess called "MUD" (JK-note the spelling ).

Successful negotiation requires a non-street tire known as a "SWAMPER", nothing else comes close. And that's not an opinion, it's fact.

Sorry to MUDDY up your thread .

2000 TJ 4.0L, A/T, all factory options.
Jeep Rater Score 360
http://www.hellbender.rockcrawler.com/
NRA Lifetime Member

[William]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> water, which comes from the sky in the form of something called "rain" (CA guys-look it up) [/quote]
Hey,

I was in Washington state once and that stuff happened all the time. In fact, they refer to sun the same way we refer to rain....

William "Unless you're William" Karstens
AKA
"I'm not Bill"

[derf]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mrblaine:
LCIR- Mostly decomposed granite in various stages of decomposition ranging from crumbly to very hard and semi-slick. Difficult to cut a tire on.

Traction is very high with the exception of dug out places from no locker rigs digging holes.
[/quote]

Alright. I get the point. I'm sorry.

Man. Ya take your stock XJ out there once or twice and no one ever lets you forget it....

(by the way, my tongue was firmly in my cheek for that one... )

1985 SJ: 360/727/229/44/20 - It's Running! Well, almost...
2001 XJ: 4.0/AW4/242/30/35 - The Mountain Goat

"Pain heals. Chicks dig scars. Glory lasts forever."

[Blatant]

Blaine: LOL. I'm no geologist, but I've come up with my own two types of rock. The ones my Swampers stick to and the ones they don't. So far, the former outweighs the latter rather heavily (grin).

Seriously, your topic is understood and certainly fair. You can see a marked difference in rock type just from the Florence Junction area to the Table Mesa area around Phoenix.

I think my larger question was: Are the rocks in JV REALLY that different from the rocks in Phoenix, given the similar weather patterns (i.e., no rain, mud, etc.)? And are they different enough to warrant a particular tire choice as being overwhelmingly better?

Guess I'll find out firsthand as several of my buds want to schedule a weekend with you guys out there at some point.
Dion

94 YJ Wrangler, soa, 36 SX, locked, gears, skids, winch, questionable judgment. Sawzall'd and flat painted.

[mrblaine]

Dion, I am in the same boat. We are coming to AZ to do some stuff with you and according to Garry, the rocks there are a bit different.

I don't know if rock types actually warrant a specific tire, but what we do seems to work really well.

I do know that the tire of choice in Las Cruces is the SX. Not for traction but for the sidewall strength.

I do know that it will be fun trying to find out.

It just occurred to me that one of your local wheelers who competes uses MT/R's in competition. Highly competitive and he was also testing some prototype Claws. I wonder if he swaps to a different tire when he runs local? His name is Shannon Campbell.

It is impossible to ascertain the value of something until you have paid for it a few times.

[Blatant]

The tire of choice here is the SX as well, for its combination of grip and sidewall strength. Everyone I know who's serious about rockcrawling here runs them.

You'll do fine on the MT/Rs.

As for competitors, not sure what Shannon runs around here. I believe Barry at 4Wheelers told me that Shannon runs SX here at home, but I wouldn't swear to that. I know firsthand Tracy Jordan doesn't run the MT/Rs when he wheels here.

Hell, it's all good one way or the other. See you in a few weeks.
Dion

94 YJ Wrangler, soa, 36 SX, locked, gears, skids, winch, questionable judgment. Sawzall'd and flat painted.

[mrblaine]

That pretty interesting. I wonder why they don't compete on them?

That's the kind of stuff that perplexes me. I followed these guys around to every event last year and they are competitive as all get out. They will do most anything for a little advantage over the next guy.

I know of one competitor who ground down a set of 42's to get them to fit the 40" tire gauge. There was about an 1/8" of tread left and he siped that. The bad part was he told us that when he tried to do that to the other set of tires, he ruined them because the carcass was too big.

Had to swap out to different size rims. Went either from 16 to 16.5 or vice versa. Talk about hunting for that last little bit of an edge over the next guy.

btw-they didn't look like they worked that well.

It is impossible to ascertain the value of something until you have paid for it a few times.

[Blatant]

You'd know better than me from a more "inside" perspective, but I'd always assumed RCAA competitors ran the MT/Rs for some sort of shadowy monetary reason.

For argument, look at the female rockcrawling championship. Many of those competitors were using the rigs of their significant other, often an RCAA competitor. How many of those rigs were running MT/Rs at an event not sponsored by Goodyear? Same for Calrocks, etc.

Note, this is not intended as a slam against the MT/R. I've used them and been on record that I believe they're the best dual-purpose tire on the market. Hell, if they made 'em in a 39-40 size, I'd probably run them.
Dion

94 YJ Wrangler, soa, 36 SX, locked, gears, skids, winch, questionable judgment. Sawzall'd and flat painted.

[William]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blatant:
Same for Calrocks, etc.

Note, this is not intended as a slam against the MT/R. I've used them and been on record that I believe they're the best dual-purpose tire on the market. Hell, if they made 'em in a 39-40 size, I'd probably run them.
Dion

[/quote]
Dion,

I went to Calrocs and it was roughly (on a guess) 75/25 split between goodyears and swampers. I orignally was going with swampers for a dedicated trail tire (cheapish) and keeping some AT's for the road. This contest, watching those with, and those with out, made all the difference.

William "Unless you're William" Karstens
AKA
"I'm not Bill"

[William]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by derf:
Alright. I get the point. I'm sorry.
[/quote]
Derf,

Interesting was when you couldn't close your rear door due to the unibody flexing. That was almost scary.

William "Unless you're William" Karstens
AKA
"I'm not Bill"

Dion:
Ask Barry Brummet if he remembers the stock green TJ with Goodyear’s on Axle Alley a couple of years ago. We were doing options Started with three tries and your out then changed it to six for those SX things and they still had grief. On the other side of the coin, at the top of the trail when the monsoons started I promptly ripped out two side walls.
It sure was a fun weekend.
Ps Is Barry going to Table Messa with your group?
Garry

[Blatant]

Hey Garry: Barry's in my group now, Arizona Extreme 4 Wheelers. If you're talking about the weekend you guys are coming out, I'm not sure, but I'll be reminding everyone. Barry sometimes has to work weekends.
Dion

94 YJ Wrangler, soa, 36 SX, locked, gears, skids, winch, questionable judgment. Sawzall'd and flat painted.

[Jeeper]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blatant:
Hey Garry: Barry's in my group now, Arizona Extreme 4 Wheelers. [/quote]

See that...Elitism at its finest...I've known Dion for a number of year and He won't accept me into his little "Group"...his excuse..You have to have a rig that's actually driveable...He's a bast__d I tell you...Mean to the bone! J/K btw!!!

Jeeper

Many Jeeps with Stuff