What would you do in this situation?

[NAILER341]

if you were friends before you knew he was gay, then you should remain friends through this. i dont know you, but in your opening question... you said your religion played into this. i'm a christian too, but that doesnt want to make me shun people that are going through a life trial.. gay, whore, druggie... whatever.. but you can certainly remain a friend to them, and offer direction,.
just dont get in bed with him, and you'll get along just fine

[NAILER341]

oh yea... one other thing you may be forgetting is that god "forgives" his children of their sins i hope i'm not jumping into the middle of something here that is going to offend any of you.. i'm pretty new to this whole religous thing myself, so what i'm spouting off is some pretty freshly learned stuff. i have lived a life of drugs, and desceit(excuse my spelling) and i was told that gosd forgives me for it. i think i'm in a pretty strict denomination of christianity. (penticostal)
well... follow your heart here man! this whole gay thing is a tough thing to deal with... you know... to put it all out on the line here, i have a step daughter that has come out of the closet as well. is disowning her because of her sexuality an option? NO! by no stretch of the imagination is that even a consideration.
actually for most men, gay women are accepted, and cool... but gay men arent... hmmm? i kind of feel the same way, but that would make me a hypocrit, now wouldnt it?
lol
i have really gone off on a tangent here
bottom line.. friend is a friend no atter who he/she is sleeping with. good luck in your decision

[Wind_Danzer]

Originally posted by NAILER341
actually for most men, gay women are accepted, and cool... but gay men arent... hmmm? i kind of feel the same way, but that would make me a hypocrit, now wouldnt it?
lol

Amen brother.... it really chaps my hide when men go off about 2 women and how cool it is but can't accept the whole 2 men thing.

Slowly I see it starting to be understood if not accepted.

[Instaurare]

Originally posted by mrblaine
You don't truly believe that do you? It's patently obvious that what is mainstream today was taboo decades ago. But, and this is a big but, there are still boundaries that won't ever be mainstream. No one will ever condone sex with a minor regardless of gender. I truly think you are letting your homophobia cause your imagination to run rampant.

Just in case you weren't paying attention, the gay taboo is fairly non existent. The next thing you will be telling me is that because I have pets, I am one step from engaging in bestiality and soon that will be the societal norm. Regardless of today's loosened standards, certain boundaries will be upheld.

You say "certain boundaries will be upheld"? Do you really believe that? Before WWI, no one believed that armies would massacre each other by the millions in trench warfare with posionous gas. Before WWII, no one could imagine that 6 million Jews could be rounded up and killed like so much cattle, or that historical gems like Dresden would be firebombed or that civilian population centers such as Hiroshima or Nagasaki would be nuked. And before Roe vs. Wade, no one would have imagined that the leglislative decisions of elected state lawmakers would be rendered null and void by an act of the U.S. Supreme Court, which by a 5-4 margin legalized abortion, which, to date, has resulted in the deaths of over 40 million unborn children. Certainly any nation that is willing to permit the slaughter which is abortion is capable of permitting "sexual freedom" to young children. It is only a matter of time.

The trouble is, once moral absolutes are gone, there is really not much remaining to block the entrance of anything. Perhaps if, as you seem to think, I suffer from "homophobia," then I guess one could say that you are afflicted by Christophobia, a deep and abiding fear of Christian moral standards.

As Bob Dylan so astutely observed, the times they are a'changin.

[Scott]

Originally posted by dennisuello
I personally don't believe one can loose his salvation. Eternal life is a free gift of God to anyone who asks and God doesn't take His gifts back.

You're not saved because you persevere sin and temptations, you persevere because you're saved.

Dennis, I don't think one can lose thier salvation either, but when something like this comes up from his life, and he chooses to live this way, it makes me wonder if he was really ever saved at all. Does that make any sense?
Scott

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Scott
Dennis, I don't think one can lose thier salvation either, but when something like this comes up from his life, and he chooses to live this way, it makes me wonder if he was really ever saved at all. Does that make any sense?
Scott

Therein lies the issue Scott, you believe he has a choice in the matter. Why don't you just ask him if he does?

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Instaurare
You say "certain boundaries will be upheld"? Do you really believe that? Before WWI, no one believed that armies would massacre each other by the millions in trench warfare with posionous gas. Before WWII, no one could imagine that 6 million Jews could be rounded up and killed like so much cattle, or that historical gems like Dresden would be firebombed or that civilian population centers such as Hiroshima or Nagasaki would be nuked. And before Roe vs. Wade, no one would have imagined that the leglislative decisions of elected state lawmakers would be rendered null and void by an act of the U.S. Supreme Court, which by a 5-4 margin legalized abortion, which, to date, has resulted in the deaths of over 40 million unborn children. Certainly any nation that is willing to permit the slaughter which is abortion is capable of permitting "sexual freedom" to young children. It is only a matter of time.

The trouble is, once moral absolutes are gone, there is really not much remaining to block the entrance of anything. Perhaps if, as you seem to think, I suffer from "homophobia," then I guess one could say that you are afflicted by Christophobia, a deep and abiding fear of Christian moral standards.

As Bob Dylan so astutely observed, the times they are a'changin.

You left out the Civil war and the hundreds of thousands that died in the middle ages fighting the Crusades. What's the difference except technology providing more efficient ways to slaughter people? The same lack of morality and disrespect for human life existed then as it does now. Do a comparison percentage wise of the total population and it probably hasn't changed that much.

Do you think abortions didn't exist before RvW? I'll take a dollar for every illegal abortion performed before RvW and retire quite nicely.

How do you figure that I suffer from Christophobia if I make and believe a statement that certain boundaries won't be crossed?Isn't that the classic definition of Christianity? There are boundaries as in moral absolutes and they shouldn't be crossed as in violated.

Nor do I believe that Bob has the market cornered on astuteness. Any cognizant being can not help but notice that the world does change at a rapid pace and has done so for as long as I can remember.

Just because the world doesn't believe that something will or could happen and it then does lends little credence to the absolute morality going in the dumper. What about landing men on the moon, advances in medicine, controlling little remote rovers on Mars, do those also erode morality?

[TJRON]

I did a little Bible study on homosexuals and Gods view on the matter and thought I'd pass on what I learned. It seems the condemning comes from Leviticus.
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shall not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

The punishment is mentioned a little later.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.
I would think heaven would be out of the question here.

There are a few more laws and prescribed punishments in Leviticus.
Leviticus 20:9 Everyone that curseth his father or mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or mother; his blood shall be upon him.
Again, forget heaven.

Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committed adultery with his neighbou's wife, the adulter and adultress shall surely be put to death.
Straight to hell for sure.

Leviticus 20:18 And if a man shall lie with a woman while having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from their people.
At least you don't have to prematurely die for this sin.

There is also some mention of not cutting the corners of your crops or picking grapes off the ground. How to trim your beard. No sex with your stepsister. No sex with your daughter in law.

I have a hard time with the Old Testament. It would seem it's all mute anyhow seeing as Jesus died for our sins.

Wind Danzer, there is no mention of lesbians in the Bible that I know of. And of course men find two naked women together less objectionable then two naked men. Men want to join the women but not so the men.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by TJRON
I did a little Bible study on homosexuals and Gods view on the matter and thought I'd pass on what I learned. It seems the condemning comes from Leviticus.
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shall not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

The punishment is mentioned a little later.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.
I would think heaven would be out of the question here.

There are a few more laws and prescribed punishments in Leviticus.
Leviticus 20:9 Everyone that curseth his father or mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or mother; his blood shall be upon him.
Again, forget heaven.

Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committed adultery with his neighbou's wife, the adulter and adultress shall surely be put to death.
Straight to hell for sure.

Leviticus 20:18 And if a man shall lie with a woman while having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from their people.
At least you don't have to prematurely die for this sin.

There is also some mention of not cutting the corners of your crops or picking grapes off the ground. How to trim your beard. No sex with your stepsister. No sex with your daughter in law.

I have a hard time with the Old Testament. It would seem it's all mute anyhow seeing as Jesus died for our sins.

Wind Danzer, there is no mention of lesbians in the Bible that I know of. And of course men find two naked women together less objectionable then two naked men. Men want to join the women but not so the men.

If your gonna pick and choose, don't forget the part in Leviticus that states- Love thy Neighbor as thyself. Pretty much nullifies any mortal judgements.

That's the problem with the Old Testament. You can play tit for tat all day long.

[BlueJeeper]

Instaurare--

Thanks for the lesson on the Camille Paglia view of The Way The World Works. It is as useless as a limp putz.

It always amazes me that the same folks that accuse the left of revisionist history turn around and label the progressive nature of our society over the past century as nothing more than some great reniassance of sin.

And one more thing Instaurare; are you a Catholic? Because the way you belittle the problems of the Catholic church displays a vast ignorance and disconnect with the true problems it has created, and the folks it has affected. If you are (hell, even if you're not), you sure read like a neo-conservative zealot who spends too much time infront of the boob tube living in fear of the world, rather than actually living in it.

[CoryB]

Originally posted by Scott
Dennis, I don't think one can lose thier salvation either, but when something like this comes up from his life, and he chooses to live this way, it makes me wonder if he was really ever saved at all. Does that make any sense?
Scott

I have to chime in here now...

Scott, you're questioning whether your friend was ever saved? Isn't being saved accepting God and Jesus into your life? Sexual preference has no bearing on whether you accept Them.

Also, he didn't CHOOSE to be a homosexual, but rather to get out of an uncomforatable heterosexual relationship. Many studies have proven that homosexuality is not a conscious choice but rather something with which a person is born.

Which is worse for him, living openly with his sexuality, or living a lie?

Originally posted by TJRON
I did a little Bible study on homosexuals and Gods view on the matter and thought I'd pass on what I learned. It seems the condemning comes from Leviticus.
Leviticus 18:22 Thou shall not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

The punishment is mentioned a little later.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.
I would think heaven would be out of the question here.

There are a few more laws and prescribed punishments in Leviticus.
Leviticus 20:9 Everyone that curseth his father or mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or mother; his blood shall be upon him.
Again, forget heaven.

Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committed adultery with his neighbou's wife, the adulter and adultress shall surely be put to death.
Straight to hell for sure.

Leviticus 20:18 And if a man shall lie with a woman while having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from their people.
At least you don't have to prematurely die for this sin.

There is also some mention of not cutting the corners of your crops or picking grapes off the ground. How to trim your beard. No sex with your stepsister. No sex with your daughter in law.

I have a hard time with the Old Testament. It would seem it's all mute anyhow seeing as Jesus died for our sins.

Wind Danzer, there is no mention of lesbians in the Bible that I know of. And of course men find two naked women together less objectionable then two naked men. Men want to join the women but not so the men.

how about New Testament? Romans 1:26-27. mentions women too.

For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

[NAILER341]

it looks like this is becoming more of a bible study than answering the initial question. there are about 10 different religious beliefs in here giving all sorts of different perspectives.
follow your heart, bro...
good luck!

[utahjeepr]

Christianity sounds like too much work and stress for me. I'll Stick with "worshiping" the Rock Gods. Sacrifice some high dollar parts and a little blood from time to time and they are happy.

As for your relationship with your friend. Your friendship developed because the two of you shared and experienced many things together. Many of my good lifelong friends and I have come to spend little or no time together and speak only rarely. Changes and choices we have made have caused us to grow apart in distance and in "values". They are still my friends, and I value what time we do have. When we can meet or speak on the phone our differences seem negligible. What matters is that we are friends, we care about each other.

[Instaurare]

Originally posted by mrblaine
You left out the Civil war and the hundreds of thousands that died in the middle ages fighting the Crusades. What's the difference except technology providing more efficient ways to slaughter people? The same lack of morality and disrespect for human life existed then as it does now. Do a comparison percentage wise of the total population and it probably hasn't changed that much.

Do you think abortions didn't exist before RvW? I'll take a dollar for every illegal abortion performed before RvW and retire quite nicely.

How do you figure that I suffer from Christophobia if I make and believe a statement that certain boundaries won't be crossed?Isn't that the classic definition of Christianity? There are boundaries as in moral absolutes and they shouldn't be crossed as in violated.

Nor do I believe that Bob has the market cornered on astuteness. Any cognizant being can not help but notice that the world does change at a rapid pace and has done so for as long as I can remember.

Just because the world doesn't believe that something will or could happen and it then does lends little credence to the absolute morality going in the dumper. What about landing men on the moon, advances in medicine, controlling little remote rovers on Mars, do those also erode morality?

Of course illegal abortions were available before Roe, but not at the rate of 4000 murdered per day, and not as the law of the land. Imagine that first degree murder had been legalized. The revolution in morality is that significant, since there is no limit to abortion. A mother who is nine months pregnant, with a perfectly viable and healthy infant, for no reason whatsoever, can take her child to an abortionist, who will provide her with a partial birth abortion. A grisley procedure. In short, the child is inverted in the womb, the body is withdrawn such that the child is 80 percent born, and then a suction tube is inserted at the base of the skull, sucking the skull dry, at which point is collapses. Then the dead child is withdrawn and thrown into a dumpster. And this may be legally performed at any point up to natural childbirth. So much for the "fetal tissue" argument. We obviously disagree as to the "boundaries to be crossed" question. You think that the boundary regarding the sexuality of children won't be crossed. And I reply that if a mother has the legal right to murder her own unborn child, then a far greater boundary has been crossed already. Ethicists are already preparing the groundwork for the argument that the humanity of a child is not truly established until they attain the age of 2 or 3, since only at that age can they really interact with others. Thus, just like an unborn child, the toddler is not really human at all, and should have no right to life whatsoever. And these academics are not reclusive quacks---if memory serves me correctly, one is a well known and respected member of the teaching staff at Harvard. Suffice it to say that it is only a short time until the gay marriage boundary will be crossed. The world has always been in flux, but moral issues such as the ones discussed have never in past times been violated as they have today. Technological advances in and of themselves are neutral, it is in their application that they can be evaluated. The harvesting of parts of unborn children for medical applications is but one more example of the horrors of the culture of death.

[Instaurare]

Originally posted by Rick Bernotas
Instaurare--

Thanks for the lesson on the Camille Paglia view of The Way The World Works. It is as useless as a limp putz.

It always amazes me that the same folks that accuse the left of revisionist history turn around and label the progressive nature of our society over the past century as nothing more than some great reniassance of sin.

And one more thing Instaurare; are you a Catholic? Because the way you belittle the problems of the Catholic church displays a vast ignorance and disconnect with the true problems it has created, and the folks it has affected. If you are (hell, even if you're not), you sure read like a neo-conservative zealot who spends too much time infront of the boob tube living in fear of the world, rather than actually living in it.

I would hardly be one to belittle the problems of the Catholic Church. In fact, their problems with clerical ephebofilia relate directly to the disobedience of American bishops to heed the directive from Rome, sent out in 1962, warning of the dangers of the admission of gay seminarians. As I have said before, it is estimated that roughly 10 to 20 percent of the clergy are gay, and yet close to 95% of the cases of priestly abuse concern adolescent males. The gays factor rather highly in this, wouldn't you say? As to the "renaissance of sin," please see my msg to mrblain. " And Rick, if I were you I would refrain from the cheap personal insults. It only weakens an otherwise intelligent post.

[Instaurare]

And Scott, not to forget you in all of this discussion, a few words of advice. Seeking counsel on moral issues from a jeep forum is about as useful as asking your pastor for help in wrenching on your jeep. Each one has their own area of expertise. These are well meaning people, but they have a different take on the Christian religion than you do. I am sure that most people are familiar with the gay lifestlye advocacy group called "Dignity." Far less known is another group comprised of recovering homosexuals called "Courage." These are individuals who have been able to extricate themselves from the homosexual lifestyle, and are available to help other who wish to do so, much like AA assists those who are alcoholics who sincerely wish to turn around their lives. I recommend that you contact both your pastor and "Courage" for counsel as to how to best handle your relationship with your friend, and how you can best help him out.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Instaurare
And Scott, not to forget you in all of this discussion, a few words of advice. Seeking counsel on moral issues from a jeep forum is about as useful as asking your pastor for help in wrenching on your jeep. Each one has their own area of expertise. These are well meaning people, but they have a different take on the Christian religion than you do. I am sure that most people are familiar with the gay lifestlye advocacy group called "Dignity." Far less known is another group comprised of recovering homosexuals called "Courage." These are individuals who have been able to extricate themselves from the homosexual lifestyle, and are available to help other who wish to do so, much like AA assists those who are alcoholics who sincerely wish to turn around their lives. I recommend that you contact both your pastor and "Courage" for counsel as to how to best handle your relationship with your friend, and how you can best help him out.

Lest ye forget, this is not only a jeep forum, it is a forum based on friends that have jeeps in common and I for one highly resent the implication that I would direct someone incorrectly. I take it as a personal insult and believe that you owe me an apology.

I don't know if you know Scott, but my beliefs are as valid as yours and you no more have the right to dismiss them blatantly as does anyone else. Trust me, if Scottie did not have an idea that he was among friends with his best interests at heart, he would not have posed the question here.

[Instaurare]

Originally posted by mrblaine
Lest ye forget, this is not only a jeep forum, it is a forum based on friends that have jeeps in common and I for one highly resent the implication that I would direct someone incorrectly. I take it as a personal insult and believe that you owe me an apology.

I don't know if you know Scott, but my beliefs are as valid as yours and you no more have the right to dismiss them blatantly as does anyone else. Trust me, if Scottie did not have an idea that he was among friends with his best interests at heart, he would not have posed the question here.

I am sure that you would steer him to the best of your knowledge, and I know that you have his best interests at heart. But I doubt that your religious convictions are congruent with his. And this is both a moral and a religious question.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Instaurare
I am sure that you would steer him to the best of your knowledge, and I know that you have his best interests at heart. But I doubt that your religious convictions are congruent with his. And this is both a moral and a religious question.

And that gives you the right to blatantly dismiss my beliefs, how?

careful how you answer!

[BlueJeeper]

Originally posted by Instaurare
And Rick, if I were you I would refrain from the cheap personal insults. It only weakens an otherwise intelligent post.

Cheap personal insults nothing. I call 'em like I see 'em, and you can continue to be on the recieving end of those comments until the time that you quit hiding your bigotry under the so-called religion you so piously wear on your sleeve. Bigot.

[Instaurare]

Originally posted by mrblaine
And that gives you the right to blatantly dismiss my beliefs, how?

careful how you answer!

Not to disparage your belief system, as I am sure that it works quite well for you. But I think that you have noticed as well as I that not a single response has been directed to Scott that is consonant with his own personal religious and moral heritage. And since this is a religious and moral issue, I think that he would be well served by consulting with his pastor. And those at "Courage" as well.

[NAILER341]

it looks like this has gotten off track..

[Instaurare]

Originally posted by Rick Bernotas
Cheap personal insults nothing. I call 'em like I see 'em, and you can continue to be on the recieving end of those comments until the time that you quit hiding your bigotry under the so-called religion you so piously wear on your sleeve. Bigot.

It is unfortunate that thru lack of anything of substance to contribute, you are reduced to juvenile attempts at slander and character assassination. Your anti-Christian hatred and bigotry could not be any more transparent.

[cbassett]

It has been brought to my attention that someone reading this thread interpretted some of my previous comments as a direct physical threat to their person.

This can mean only one of two things:

1. Someone I know personally, and lives in my area, is a closet pedophile.

2. Some uptight bag of wind thinks the World revolves around him and/or has a complete lack of reading skills- possible a result of living in a vaccuum.

Personally, I suspect #2 (figuratively and literally). That being the case, get over yourself.

[speaceman]

What I'm most curious about Instaurare is why it seems that you are so personally threatened by what two members of the same sex may be doing within their bedroom?

I understand your religious convictions guide you to try to help all sinners to the correct path, but what is adding your intense focus towards homosexuals as a specific group of sinners that needs extra attention?

Maybe I've taken more out of your posts than you are actually putting in, but it really does seem to me as you have singled out homosexuals as a larger problem than other sinners, in your own religious convictions.

Am I wrong about this?

[cbassett]

Originally posted by NAILER341
it looks like this has gotten off track..

Welcome to JeepBBS.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Instaurare
Not to disparage your belief system, as I am sure that it works quite well for you. But I think that you have noticed as well as I that not a single response has been directed to Scott that is consonant with his own personal religious and moral heritage. And since this is a religious and moral issue, I think that he would be well served by consulting with his pastor. And those at "Courage" as well.

By espousing your beliefs as more appropriate than ours or mine specifically, you are in fact disparaging it to no end. You do not have the market cornered on religion or morality nor is your advice more or less appropriate than any of the rest. I think that is what is the most irritating, your "holier than thou" attitude.

Is it possible to tone that down to a more acceptable or at least less irritable level?

[Sephiroth]

Well after reading every post on this topic and thinking about this for awhile I have say Scott your friend has it more togeather then you do, At least he knows who and what he is and if you need to step back and put your christian ways between you and your friend then were you ever his friend to begin with??

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by cbassett
Welcome to JeepBBS.

We should patent that or at least register it as a trademark.