Grand Cherokee brake/steering upgrade question for TJ???

[SantaCruzer]

I read the recent article in Fourwheeler about the WJ brakes and steering/knuckles on a TJ and I'm planning a similar upgrade. My question is this: What machining would have to be done in order to use the stock front WJ rotors with a warn 5x5.5 kit? I understand the rotors will have to be re-drilled for the new lug pattern, but will the rotors require further machining? I already have a near new pair of WJ rotors that I'd like to use if possible.

Thanks.

[Chris L]

Originally posted by SantaCruzer
I read the recent article in Fourwheeler about the WJ brakes and steering/knuckles on a TJ and I'm planning a similar upgrade. My question is this: What machining would have to be done in order to use the stock front WJ rotors with a warn 5x5.5 kit? I understand the rotors will have to be re-drilled for the new lug pattern, but will the rotors require further machining? I already have a near new pair of WJ rotors that I'd like to use if possible.

Thanks.

The WJ rotors you have should be 5 on 5.5 already and they wont need any other machine work. There is a spacer that needs to be machined in order to center the axle at the new knuckle. Mr.Blaine would be the one to answer your questions. He was one of the first to do this swap on his TJ.

[Mark Hinkley]

Hey Chris isn't the WJ 5 on 5? Not real sure if my memory is working?

mark
orgs mfg

[SantaCruzer]

I wish the WJ rotors were 5on5.5", but jeep did something funky with the WJ's and used a 5 on 5" bolt pattern that is mainly reserved for 2wd vehicles. Kinda wierd, huh?

I'd like to know more about the spacer. The fourwheeler article also mentioned the spacer to get the correct angle with the axle. Is this spacer required?

Is the spacer only used if you use TJ axle yokes (housing ends)?....or can the spacer be eliminated if you use the stock WJ yokes? My assumption here is that the misalignment is stemming from the TJ yokes being different than the WJ yokes. However, it's just what I'm guessing and it's most likely a bunch of bull so I'd like to hear from the people that know what I'm talking about

[Chris L]

Originally posted by Mark Hinkley
Hey Chris isn't the WJ 5 on 5? Not real sure if my memory is working?

mark
orgs mfg

Hmmm....Mark, I could be wrong. I know blaine runs 5 on 5.5 wheels, and was assuming that they were stock roters off of a WJ. Sorry for any confusion

[Chris L]

Originally posted by SantaCruzer
I wish the WJ rotors were 5on5.5", but jeep did something funky with the WJ's and used a 5 on 5" bolt pattern that is mainly reserved for 2wd vehicles. Kinda wierd, huh?

I'd like to know more about the spacer. The fourwheeler article also mentioned the spacer to get the correct angle with the axle. Is this spacer required?

Is the spacer only used if you use TJ axle yokes (housing ends)?....or can the spacer be eliminated if you use the stock WJ yokes? My assumption here is that the misalignment is stemming from the TJ yokes being different than the WJ yokes. However, it's just what I'm guessing and it's most likely a bunch of bull so I'd like to hear from the people that know what I'm talking about

The spacer is needed to index the axle at the WJ knuckle and the hub kit {if I remember correctly when blaine was splaining it to me } I think it had something to do with the hub kit adding 3/4 of an inch or so to each end of the front axle. Maybe Blaine can chime in here? Last thing I want to do is give mis information.

[SantaCruzer]

btt.

[SantaCruzer]

I did some more reading and it sounds like CJ-7 rotors are the way to go with this set-up.

Do you have to machine the rotors at all?
Can you use normal WJ brake pads?

....and I'd still love to hear Blaine explain the front spacer thingy.

Thanks!

[Paradiddle]

I remember Blaine telling me recently that he is in fact using the CJ rotors - 11.5" I think.

Jeff

[mrblaine]

The WJ knuckle conversion is easy to do. A lot depends on whether or not you are going to run a hub conversion.

If not, you have to get pretty creative with some things.

First, the reason for the spacer is because the centerline of the balljoints is different between the two knuckles in relation to the centerline of the axle joints. U-joints on one and a CV joint on the other.

Ideally the spacer should be 1/4" thick. That will bring the u-joints into the same axial line as the ball joints. That thickness will not work if you intend to register the unit bearing correctly and have the load carried by the registration and not the three knuckle bolts. There is no room for anything to go back into the knuckle.

The unit bearing has a machined surface or registration ring just behind the three bolt flange. It goes into the knuckle about .300. If the spacer has to be .250 that only leaves .050 to carry the load on the front axle. Not enough to make me feel comfortable. You can see the unit bearing and the machined surface below.



You can do one of two things to alleviate the problem. Space the bearing out further, or turn down the unit bearing to fit into the spacer. That is what I plan on doing for the vehicles that want to run bigger brakes and unit bearings. I am still solving the problem of the bolt pattern and thing it may be possible to just re-drill the full size '86 CJ-7 rotors to 5 on 4.5.

I am currently doing the R&D on this set-up to run Cobra brakes on the front of TJs. We will see if we have to bump up the rim size to accomodate.

Here is a pic of the spacer I had machined.

You can see that it goes into the knuckle and registers just like the unit bearing did.



Here is a pic of it in the knuckle-



I have tried to be pretty general here and will answer as many questions as I can.

[SantaCruzer]

Thanks for the info. Yes, I will be running manual hubs (warn 5x5.5 conversion kit).

Sorry for swarming you with questions, but I have a few more

1. Will CJ-7 rotors require any machining with this set-up?
2. Do you (or someone else / other than Burnsville) sell the spacer that you made?

One thing I'm curious about is how risky it would be to just run a 1/4" spacer and not have it register (i.e. the burnsville spacer)? I agree that having the 3 knuckle bolts carry all the weight of the front end does not sound safe/ideal....however, it sounds like Dan has done a few of these without any problems (yet). Any thoughts? Am I missing something obvious with Dan's set-up?

[SantaCruzer]

Almost forgot...

What is the approximate track width increase you should expect from doing the knuckle/brake upgrade with hubs & a spacer?

I've heard you get ~3/4" from the hub conversion. Does the spacer add additional width? How about the knuckles themselves?

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by SantaCruzer
Thanks for the info. Yes, I will be running manual hubs (warn 5x5.5 conversion kit).

Sorry for swarming you with questions, but I have a few more

No problem.



1. Will CJ-7 rotors require any machining with this set-up?

No, not for the 5 on 5.5 bolt circle. The diameter is correct and the offset of the hat is really close. The hat could be .125 less offset and would center the caliper nicely in the slider grooves. As it is you can accomplish the same thing by taking the spacer that comes in the hub conversion and putting it over the wheel studs as a wheel spacer of just eliminating it all together.

2. Do you (or someone else / other than Burnsville) sell the spacer that you made?

I wasn't aware that Burnsville made a spacer. Mine is more of an adapter than a spacer. I am in the process of getting some quotes on them from a few machine shops. If that pans out, I will have some available. My big snag right now is the few I have had done are too expensive in my opinion. I paid 60.00 apeice for 6 of them and they are all used.

One thing I'm curious about is how risky it would be to just run a 1/4" spacer and not have it register (i.e. the burnsville spacer)? I agree that having the 3 knuckle bolts carry all the weight of the front end does not sound safe/ideal....however, it sounds like Dan has done a few of these without any problems (yet). Any thoughts? Am I missing something obvious with Dan's set-up?

I am fairly conscientious about not changing the function of something and it would really bother me to add any more load to the knuckle bolts. The only thing you are missing with Dan's set-up is luck. If he is still getting away with it, I would be surprised. He pretty sharp when it comes to this stuff, and I would not expect him to continue to do it. As far as your comfort level, do you really want to risk being the first failure? When that set-up fails, it has the potential to be highly catastrophic. We are talking the potential to lose both front wheels at or nearly at the same time and not only will you have no steering, but your braking will be impaired also.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by SantaCruzer
Almost forgot...

What is the approximate track width increase you should expect from doing the knuckle/brake upgrade with hubs & a spacer?

I've heard you get ~3/4" from the hub conversion. Does the spacer add additional width? How about the knuckles themselves?

The track increase is from the small conversion. The big conversion does not change track that much or any at all.

The knuckles are shorter from the WJ in the area that affects track.

Because of my large backspacing on my rims, I am actually narrower in the front, and am the same width front and rear. I am building wheel spacers to fix that.

[SantaCruzer]

Thanks for the thorough feedback. I'm in for the adaptor if you decide to do another run, and I'd gladly compensate you for your efforts.

[SantaCruzer]

Blaine,

What rotors did you end up using? I think I remember seeing some drilled/slotted CJ rotors and I'm curious as to what brand they are.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by SantaCruzer
Blaine,

What rotors did you end up using? I think I remember seeing some drilled/slotted CJ rotors and I'm curious as to what brand they are.

I used stock CJ-7 rotors because that is what is specified by Warn for the big hub conversion. I just left them full size without turning down the OD to fit inside the TJ knuckle sliders for the calipers.

[SantaCruzer]

FYI-

Here's an email I got from Dan @ Burnsville:

"The spacer supports the hub and bearing assembly.They are 50 dollars for the
pair. I will have more available at the end of this week."

Looks like he has something other than washers, but I'm unclear if it's going to be the correct solution. For $50 bucks I guess I'll try it out and see how it works.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by SantaCruzer
FYI-

Here's an email I got from Dan @ Burnsville:

"The spacer supports the hub and bearing assembly.They are 50 dollars for the
pair. I will have more available at the end of this week."

Looks like he has something other than washers, but I'm unclear if it's going to be the correct solution. For $50 bucks I guess I'll try it out and see how it works.

Can you please post pics on here for me? I am very interested in how they look.

[SantaCruzer]

No problem. As soon as they arrive I'll post some pics.

[SantaCruzer]

Blaine,

The burnsville spacer arrived last week. I'm not sure what Dan meant in his email, but the spacer is just a spacer and it does not register the spindle correctly. The spacer is 1/4" thick.

After having all the parts in front of me (5x5.5 hub kit, knuckles, spacer, etc) I was able to finally understand the problem. I think I have found a solution....

If I read your description right, then your method pulls the spindle out an additional 1/4" (if I'm reading it right) and then you're not lined up with the ball joints again?

After looking at the spindle and spacer and knuckle on my bed late at night () I thought of something that might work....Why not make an additional 1/4" ring/spacer that is press fitted to the spindle behind where it orginally registers in the knuckle? I wish I had a pic of the spindle, but I don't. This way allows me to utilize the burnesvill piece (it's actually a very nice spacer) and the spindle will still register .30" in the knuckle. I dropped my spindles off at a machine shop in Phoenix yesterday and they're doing the work and I should have them back in a day or two. I'll defintely post pics when I get them back.

Any thoughts?

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by SantaCruzer
Blaine,

The burnsville spacer arrived last week. I'm not sure what Dan meant in his email, but the spacer is just a spacer and it does not register the spindle correctly. The spacer is 1/4" thick.

I was afraid of that. The price for the pair is less than what it costs to have one adapter machined. I had hoped that Dan would figure it out and advance beyond the washers he used on the first one. He's pretty darn good at what he does and this one escapes me. I hope is does not bite him if the form of someone's front wheel falling off.



After having all the parts in front of me (5x5.5 hub kit, knuckles, spacer, etc) I was able to finally understand the problem. I think I have found a solution....

If I read your description right, then your method pulls the spindle out an additional 1/4" (if I'm reading it right) and then you're not lined up with the ball joints again?

With the Warn kit, it actually works just fine and the side to side shift of the axleshaft when you rotate the knuckle is very minimal. That is the goal. You are trying to minimize or eliminate the side to side shift and hold the axle centered when you turn.


After looking at the spindle and spacer and knuckle on my bed late at night () I thought of something that might work....Why not make an additional 1/4" ring/spacer that is press fitted to the spindle behind where it orginally registers in the knuckle? I wish I had a pic of the spindle, but I don't. This way allows me to utilize the burnesvill piece (it's actually a very nice spacer) and the spindle will still register .30" in the knuckle. I dropped my spindles off at a machine shop in Phoenix yesterday and they're doing the work and I should have them back in a day or two. I'll defintely post pics when I get them back.

Any thoughts?

The Warn spindles have some fair radii at the base of the steps on the back side. Have the shop cut those fairly sharp for you to get a bit more spacer in without a gap.

I am going to do the same thing with some stock unit bearings to adapt the WJ knuckles and brakes onto TJ's.

About the only cool thing about all of this is that you don't have to hunt down new knuckle bolts. The stock ones have plenty of length to handle just about any spacer that you need.

[SantaCruzer]

Well....I thought I could put it all back together this weekend but I ran into a small snag....

I used the burnsville spacer in conjunction with my new ring. The spindle fits nice and snug in the knuckle.

As recommended, I am using stock CJ-7 rotors. I made the mistake (I think it was a mistake) of using the spacer in the kit that goes between the hub and the rotor. When I mounted the rotor/hub assemblies the rotors contacted the knuckles. After reading your above post again it seems that the spacer should be left out? I think this may pull the rotor out enough to clear the knuckle. I took the studs out last night.....However I noticed that the studs that came with the kit may not work as they are too long. Did you use the studs from the kit or did you pick up some new ones? Any part numbers?

Thanks again,

Mike

P.S. Pics are on the way...

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by SantaCruzer
Well....I thought I could put it all back together this weekend but I ran into a small snag....

I used the burnsville spacer in conjunction with my new ring. The spindle fits nice and snug in the knuckle.

As recommended, I am using stock CJ-7 rotors. I made the mistake (I think it was a mistake) of using the spacer in the kit that goes between the hub and the rotor. When I mounted the rotor/hub assemblies the rotors contacted the knuckles. After reading your above post again it seems that the spacer should be left out? I think this may pull the rotor out enough to clear the knuckle. I took the studs out last night.....However I noticed that the studs that came with the kit may not work as they are too long. Did you use the studs from the kit or did you pick up some new ones? Any part numbers?

Thanks again,

Mike

P.S. Pics are on the way...

Yes, I left the 3/16" spacer out and opened the hole up in the center of it to use it as a wheel spacer. If your rims are hub centric, you are probably better off using that feature rather than defeating it by converting the spacer. If you rims don't register on the small lip on the rotor hub, then it doesn't matter and the ring takes up the difference in the stud length.

[SantaCruzer]

Blaine,

FYI - Here is the spindle ready to go in. I put everything back together last night (finally) and everything seems to be OK. I'm going to fill the diff up tonight and take it for a test run.

Note the burnville spacer is in black. Again, this was only a spacer and did not register properly into the knuckle. The custom spacer/ring was made so it's a snug fit in the knuckle and it was press fitted onto the spindle. Hopefully everything works out OK. Thanks again for your help and advice.

Mike

[ChrisK]

MrBlaine,
I now have the Down East Offroad hi-steer kit and it uses modified WJ knuckles. They have a bracket to adapt 1990 Chevy S-10 calipers (they have a pretty big piston) to the knuckles, but I'm thinking of using the WJ brake setup instead eventually.
Anyways, could you post a pic of your WJ knuckles so I could see if DEO machined anything off that would be required for using WJ brakes? I'd love to go with bigger brakes.
I do have the Warn 5 on 4.5 hub conversion so I guess I'd just have the CJ rotors redrilled for those. Any problems with that?

Thanks,

Chris

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by ChrisK
MrBlaine,
I now have the Down East Offroad hi-steer kit and it uses modified WJ knuckles. They have a bracket to adapt 1990 Chevy S-10 calipers (they have a pretty big piston) to the knuckles, but I'm thinking of using the WJ brake setup instead eventually.
Anyways, could you post a pic of your WJ knuckles so I could see if DEO machined anything off that would be required for using WJ brakes? I'd love to go with bigger brakes.
I do have the Warn 5 on 4.5 hub conversion so I guess I'd just have the CJ rotors redrilled for those. Any problems with that?

Thanks,

Chris

I'll show you mine if you show me yours.


Seriously, I would love to see some pics of that set up. I can pretty much tell what is modified from a pic and I will see if I can dig up some of mine.

I also may have a set of brakes from a WJ if you are interested. 2 or three if I play my cards right.

[ChrisK]

Originally posted by mrblaine


I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

Seriously, I would love to see some pics of that set up. I can pretty much tell what is modified from a pic and I will see if I can dig up some of mine.

I also may have a set of brakes from a WJ if you are interested. 2 or three if I play my cards right.

Here:



Modified WJ on the left. Stock XJ on the right. The lower arm on the WJ knuckle does not get used at all. I'll be installing the hi-steer in a HPD30 I picked up.

This is all I have of the setup right now. I'm in Detroit visiting my brother or else I'd take a few more pics for you.

Chris

[mrblaine]

Chris, without a pic that compares the two holes at the rear of the knuckle that hold the caliper bracket on, it appears that the only modification to the knuckle may be the attachment point of the draglink to the upper arm.

What mechanism are they using there? Is the taper going in from the top or the bottom, or is it just through drilled for a bolt?

Here is a close-up of the backside showing the caliper bracket and the two bolts that go through the knuckle to hold it on.

[ChrisK]

The taper is from the tp sp the tierod attaches to the to. The draglink then attaches to the tierod.

i don't think the modded the caliper holes at all. I wonder why they used the S-10 brakes them. Probably because the calipers are less expensive ($11 plus core) and that they can be used with stock rotors would be my guess. Since my rotors are brand new, I'll install the s-10 ones and see how they do. If they are OK, I'll install the WJ brakes a little down the road.

Once I get back to Arizona, I'll take more pics of the knuckle and other parts of the kit and the S-10 caliper.

Chris