Manual trannys are useless......

[mrblaine]

What do you consider a prepared auto?

[Paradiddle]

Originally posted by ghall
I would guess the next logical step for Paul and those types would be buggy springs, wooden spoke wheels and a bucket of oats.
Garry

Paul - are you going to put up with that?

I agree with Robert - this has been a funny week so far.

What is the crawl ratio of a Clydsdale????

Jeff

[Paul Sinclair]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bushwhacker
[B]Blaine, etc...How do the guys with 100:1+ ratios do on the hammers compared to the autos??

They both do equally well. You rarely need to gas it on the Hammers, so at 100:1 you could just put it in 1st, relax & have fun.

I just watched a bunch of EROCC vids that I got for xmas. I also noticed that alot of the guys had autos with big motors. Seemed like they did more throttling through things than crawling.

This is my point exactly. What these guys have to do to win just doesn't translate to a fun day on the trail. A friend of mine has a 5 speed, 4 Cyl. TJ with a Klune V 4.0, I think that would make a fun & very capable trail rig. It's light weight, dependable, & sloooow.
Paul

[sethmark]

Originally posted by mrblaine
What do you consider a prepared auto?

I meant a trail prepped vehicle.

[Paul Sinclair]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paradiddle
[B]Paul - are you going to put up with that?

Garry (along with Mark & most others) has been picking on my eating habits for years, & while I don't actually eat oats that often, I don't mind.
Paul

[Art Welch]

Originally posted by Paradiddle
What is the crawl ratio of a Clydsdale????

[Robert J. Yates]

The fun thing about this discussion has been the lively reparte'. Lets face it, we all have alot invested inour rigs and use them hard which says alot about the caliber of the group here. All I can say is that given all of our collective experience, it has been quite entertaining to read the responses from the various factions

Now all that being said, anybody have any idea on what it cost to build that 700r4 auto box that is featured in the current issue of 4 Wheeler?

[John]

What 700R4? What'd they build?

John (might swap an auto one day..... maybe)

[Jeeper]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates

Now all that being said, anybody have any idea on what it cost to build that 700r4 auto box that is featured in the current issue of 4 Wheeler?

Wayyy to much! Intersting article though.

Jeeper

[Jeff Weston]

I haven't read the article but I can tell anybody who is considering the 700R4 behind their Jeep engine should strongly consider the AW4 instead! My dad recently swapped his AX-15 in his '93 YJ and it was a bloody fortune. He would've gone with a Jeep tranny in the first place but they wouldn't fit with his Atlas I (not II) transfercase.

In addition to the tranny, you need two adaptors, a CPS relocation kit, flexible dipstick (about $75), custom hoses, custom crossmember, etc., etc.

It is a nice tranny and has the ability to manually lock it up in all gears. That said, it was very expensive and required alot of tinkering to get it to work right.

[Jim M]

Originally posted by mrblaine
What do you consider a prepared auto?

I consider it one that WON'T overheat, and WON'T stall out on steep hills from fluid starvation, and WON'T allow for too much speed while descending hills. These three things are the main objections to an auto that I have. Please tell me that there is a fix for this that doesn't cost as much as a low geared transfer case. Then tell me it's available to go behind my little 2.5 liter motor.

The 700R4 tranny in 4 Wheeler is the closest thing to a stick without a clutch that I've seen. Nice ideas, but too spendy. I like the torque converters forgiveness and the manuals ability to help in steep descents. They even added in a fluid accumulator.

Gotta go feed the Clydesdales now...

[Robert J. Yates]

While I appreciate your valuable insight Jeff, I wasn't asking about that tranny with regard to a specific Jeep application but more along the general lines of what it is costing us to get the gearing combination or drivablity that we are looking for out of a transmission - which I think is the underlying theme of this discussion.

I am sure it was quite spendy given all the stuff they slapped on it which is why I asked - the article would have more helpful to the average Joe (and this discussion) if they would at least put down the retail price of the stuff they used I did kind of like the fluid accumulator myself though and the piece on the lock up switch was interesting.

[Art Welch]

Regarding relative costs it's hard to argue against the fact that dollar for dollar an automatic will give you better performance. I love the way my rig works now (well, broken steering box aside) and have no plans to switch to an automatic, but it took a significant amount of time and a significant amount of money to get it to where it is today.

[TJRON]

I would like to thank all the guys with manuals for joining in this discussion. It's been fun!

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by TJRON
You don't have to smoke crack to enjoy a manual transmission, but it sure helps!

Sorry Ron, I just couldn't resist

Originally posted by Jim M
I consider it one that WON'T overheat, and WON'T stall out on steep hills from fluid starvation, and WON'T allow for too much speed while descending hills. These three things are the main objections to an auto that I have. Please tell me that there is a fix for this that doesn't cost as much as a low geared transfer case. Gotta go feed the Clydesdales now...

Uhhhh maybe a Jeep 999 auto which comes with most properly equipped TJ's. It does however have one shortcoming that can be fixed with a deep pan from a 727 torqeflite for about 50.00. No that wasn't a typo the whole damn upgrade is fifty bucks. End product won't overheat, no need for brakes above 3mph. on down hills and up hills aren?t even a problem.
Garry

[Jim M]

Gary,

Did you miss the part about the 2.5 liter motor? The TF909 comes from the factory for my engine, but the 999 won't fit. There is a deep pan available for the 909 fro Mopar, but I've seen too many 999's with deep pans slip on the steep stuff and be forced to be winched back. Since the similarities between the two trannies are so great, I feel it's fair to judge the performance of one as an indicator of the other. Granted, fluid starvation takes a few minutes, but I've seen it happen often. Most of the time this is on a YJ. Is the TJ tranny somehow different?

[slander]

I prefer the down hill controlability of a manual rather than an auto. My buddies zj scares me on long steep decents, even with 4.56s in the pumpkins and 33's, it still decends hills way faster than my yj with 3.07s and 33's. I do see where i would prefer an auto tho, id imagine in the steep rocky moonsapes you guys wheel in an auto will be preferd. But in the muddy trail of the midwest the manual is king IMO. It gives ya better contol of wheelspin, and is much better decending steep muddy hills, and if ya gear them low enough ya never even have to touch the clutch. Okay thats my 2 cents.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Jim M
Gary,

Did you miss the part about the 2.5 liter motor? The TF909 comes from the factory for my engine, but the 999 won't fit. There is a deep pan available for the 909 fro Mopar, but I've seen too many 999's with deep pans slip on the steep stuff and be forced to be winched back. Since the similarities between the two trannies are so great, I feel it's fair to judge the performance of one as an indicator of the other. Granted, fluid starvation takes a few minutes, but I've seen it happen often. Most of the time this is on a YJ. Is the TJ tranny somehow different?

Jim, I am going to guess that the reason you have not been deluged with responses from the auto owners is that most don't want to feel they are stooping to coventional garbage and want a more enlightened discussion.

That said, I have little experience with the YJ auto. I have a ton of experience with the one behind the TJ 4.0.

Mine slipped once, slapped on the deep pan and never looked back.

Garry-Ditto
Robert-Ditto
Sergey has no problem with his slipping
Kat- same as Sergey
Steve-Stock pan and same as us, but his is slightly overfilled
Brad-Same as Steve but with the deep pan
William- No issues
Jeff-No issues when I have wheeled with him
There are more that I can't recall at the moment, but it truly is never an issue out here.

Garry and I both run tranny temp gauges. Mine is from B&M and while I don't recall the exact temp range, the needle never moves out of the yellow zone. Garry has reported the same to me about his.

I run a small cooler in a big hot desert.

Don't know if this helps, but you can rest assured that we wheel with most of the manual guys on here and if they had any ammunition to use against us in these areas, they would be firing away already.

[Daddy Longlegs]

I have ran Axle Alley twice in the past year. Once with the auto and once with a manual. (in the same Jeep)

Here is the two setups:

AX15, Teralow 4:1, 4.56 gears, locked front and rear. 70:1 ratio

AW4, Stock 2.72:1, 4.56 gears, locked front and rear.

Both performed great for the most part. On the really big winch only waterfalls I did not stall the motor while driving and winching up the falls with the auto. (I did notice the manual guys stalling though) With the manual I would either stall it or sometimes overrun the winch. In winching situations the auto hands down feels better.

On these big waterfalls I never had any problems with starvation of the AW4 auto. Everyone in the group did however lose engine oil pressure while sitting on the waterfall waiting for the winch line to be hooked up. How often have any of you seen almost zero engine oil pressure yet the auto tranny was still pulling fine?

I did drive up 1 more waterfall with the auto than I was able to do with the Ax15. Of course in between I had dramatically changed the weight distribution of my Jeep and attribute that success more to that than the auto. I also spotted a 4 banger TJ with a manual up the same line I did on the same waterfall. He too had similar weight distribution to me so I don't attribute this new success to the auto.

The auto has a very slight edge IMO and I'm really happy with it. If anything it gives me more time to think about my line instead of thinking about how much I need to feather the clutch to avoid stalling.

Scott

[sethmark]

Scott,
I never lost oil pressure and neither did Stu. In fact, I think that only Troy had reported a zero pressure reading from the gauge.

Having had access to a Snap On OBDII Mobile Diagnostic Computer for the last week, I can tell you for certain that the gauges are WAY freakin' off. Temps and pressure varies so much more than I could've ever imagined. My guess is that Troys gauge is crappy.

[StealthTJ]

To add a little more to what Blaine said.
I recently swapped in a TF999 and deep pan (the beginning of July). I've been on a lot of runs since the swap.
I've been on some steep climbs. Some were steep, but short waterfalls. Some were steep long gnarly hills. I've experienced no slipping at all.
I run a temperature guage also (B & M). Normally the tranny fluid temp runs around 165 ~ 170.. On some very steep climbs that were long, I've had it creep up to 200 or so. Certainly not a problem at all.
I can't see myself ever going back to a manual now. There simply is no comparsion, for the type of wheeling that I do around here (Tucson and southern AZ).
Some seem to think that the autos have braking issues, but really, I believe, what the auto does, is expose any existing braking weaknesses that a manual may mask, until it's a bad time.
It's sort of like some of the trails. Some will exposes various weaknesses very quickly.
The people that are running manuals with larger tires (35's ~ 37's and larger) and haven't done something with their brakes are simply fooling themselves. I just hope that they never break a rear drive shaft on a steep climb, or have to really get on the brakes to avoid something while traveling down the highway at 65 or so ...
I remember someone, with a manual at the time (Scott was it you), mentioning something about how it was harder to stop around town, after they brought some 37 MT/R's..


Best,
Fred

[Jim M]

Originally posted by mrblaine
Jim, I am going to guess that the reason you have not been deluged with responses from the auto owners is that most don't want to feel they are stooping to coventional garbage and want a more enlightened discussion. ...

Really? The implication is that by asking the questions I've asked I've somehow offended auto owners, who are "enlightened". Can this be true? Does wheeling without a clutch lead to some higher plain of thinking? Tell me straight, I can take it; are my questions really that silly?

I was truly seeking to understand. I've asked about auto's on this board before. Since that time I have paid specific attention to the performance of autos in the east coast wheeling areas I frequent. I described what I found.

I can't account for our different experiences. I've been playing this off road game for about 14 years; all of in the middle Atlantic area. I have witnessed first hand all of the problems described by me above. Had I not witnessed them, I wouldn't be writing about them. That you folks out west have had good success with them is great, and I'm envious. I wish my experiences were different.

The bottom line is that I'm still willing to take the plunge. I need a tranny for a 4 banger. Finding one for a reasonable price is proving difficult. Perhaps I need to research further the options other than those offered from Jeep.

[Scott]

Well, I have to add to this discussion, but let me precede my comments by saying this:
I don't give a crap what you like, and I don't give a crap what you drive as long as you have fun.

Now, on to my comments

Most of you know, my yj used to have a 5 spd, with a stock 231 t case. I have to say it was a bear to keep running on steep hills, with the carbed motor, and only having two feet, where a third would be really nice. I do attribute a lot of the problems to be the carbs fault. That being said, I swapped in a 3 spd auto, and as much as I hate the screaming engine RPM's Ive now got with 4.56's and 35" MTR's, I have to say, I have not ONCE regretted going to a TF999 auto. Ive also got the mopar deep pan for it, and its helped a bunch in cooling. I also run both the factory radiator cooler, and an auxilary cooler for it. And I will say this. Now that I have the auto, it has made steep inclines a lot easier, but in my case, I think its just because the auto is making up for my lack of wheeling experience, and those of you that really know me here, know that I speak the truth... Right John Anyway, just my thoughts, but I enjoy my auto, now both offroad and on road. That's also not to say that I will never own a manual vehicle again, because I very well may. But these are just my opinions.
Scott

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Jim M
Really? The implication is that by asking the questions I've asked I've somehow offended auto owners, who are "enlightened". Can this be true? Does wheeling without a clutch lead to some higher plain of thinking? Tell me straight, I can take it; are my questions really that silly?

What I meant was that we have not stooped to the traditional BS in the discussion and are accepting some things as givens. I am not the slightest bit offended, but I could not figure out why no one was addressing the non issues we have with heat and slippage. You know better than to even suggest that I would think that not having a clutch pedal would imply anything other than that.

I was truly seeking to understand. I've asked about auto's on this board before. Since that time I have paid specific attention to the performance of autos in the east coast wheeling areas I frequent. I described what I found.

I can't account for our different experiences. I've been playing this off road game for about 14 years; all of in the middle Atlantic area. I have witnessed first hand all of the problems described by me above. Had I not witnessed them, I wouldn't be writing about them. That you folks out west have had good success with them is great, and I'm envious. I wish my experiences were different.

The bottom line is that I'm still willing to take the plunge. I need a tranny for a 4 banger. Finding one for a reasonable price is proving difficult. Perhaps I need to research further the options other than those offered from Jeep.

I guess this is where I am baffled. I know you asked before, I don't think my answers are any different now than they were then. I also don't know how to account for the different experiences. BTW- I am still looking for a trans for you. They are just not common and the only one I have ever found was attached to a motor and went very quickly.

[Jim M]

I would like to accept those things as givens, but my experience is different. It should speak volumes that I'm willing to accept the experience and observations of others over my own.

My comment about enlightenment was perhaps off base. I know you better than that and I apoligize.

I have found several trannies at local yards, but they have been well over $1200 without the linkages etc. It seems the local yards are quite proud of them...or I need to adjust my thinking and expect to pay more.

So, riddle me this: Why do all of you auto guys feel the need to go out evangelizing the merits of your trannies? It seems you guys are into this argument like a religion. Do you get points for each "convert"?

[Stu Olson]

Originally posted by sethmark

The issue is performance. I've seen the auto guys insult low geared rigs by calling them tractors, insinuating that the technology is equivalent to horse and carriages, among others, and what I want to know is how many of those people have actually DRIVEN both in equivalent trail situations. In many normal trail situations, I am contending that a prepared auto and a prepared manual driver can both get thru a trail with equal grace.

Seth (the caveat again-- I know the difference and may swap someday VERY soon -- just having entertaining conversation)

I've not gotten into this discussion yet but thought I would toss in my two cents.

I've been driving my TJ, as currently configured, for about two years now. That would be a manual tranny and a 74:1 1st gear crawl.

Having just completed my first visit to JV in November, I can say that I was NOT overly impressed with my crawl ratio on the two trails I ran. Those that wheel with me probably think I go a little too slow....I know I get those comments when I lead a run here in Arizona (but screw them, my run, my choice of speed). That being said, I wished for a 6:1 1st gear in my tranny at JV so I didn't have to go as fast as I was (and I won't feather the clutch all day long). Yes, I use the brake to slow things down but that too has limits. While many of the trails I run here in AZ allow me, for the most part, to put it in 1st gear and chug up and over the obstacles, I found that not to be the norm at JV.

The only auto I've driven was my XJ for 11 years. It was stock but I took it where ever a LSD rear axle would allow me to go. I must admit that it never saw 5 % of the places my TJ as been.

All that being said, I look forward to trying a nicely setup TJ with an auto on a piece of challenging trail, someday. I have no doubt in my mind that I will like it. And if I got up tomorrow morning and my manual tranny blew as I backed out the driveway, I would be swapping in an AW-4 before sundown and I wouldn't think twice about doing it. (and if that was a mistake, I am confident I could sell it by noon the next day)

In many normal trail situations, I am contending that a prepared auto and a prepared manual driver can both get thru a trail with equal grace.

That is true....and in the many trails I have ran, that is often the case. However, on the extremely hard ones, I know I have to work harder to demonstrate equal grace.

Great discussion, guys!

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Jim M
I would like to accept those things as givens, but my experience is different. It should speak volumes that I'm willing to accept the experience and observations of others over my own.

Experience is a darn funny thing and sets up all kinds of biases that I find utterly amusing at times.

Garry for example. I tried about 50 times to get him to toss the Doetsch shocks on the rear of his TJ. Not happening, he would rather cut and reweld the mounts 20 different times than buy a Rancho that fit. Would have no part of Ranchos on the rear, had nothing good to say about them, ridiculed me for running them on my jeep. Why- because Rancho gave him crap one time over a fitment issue. What's funny about all this? He would beat you senseless if you tried to take the Ranchos off of the front.

William teased a squirrel with a piece of pasta whilst forgetting that squirrels like pasta sauce and have difficulty determining the difference between a pasta covered noodle and a finger. The only method of determination they use involves teeth.

Hates squirrels to this day and will even admit that perhaps teasing a squirrel with food is not the brightest thing to do. Still hates squirrels though.

We all know similar stories and yes it does speak volumes that you would trust the experiences of a few web buddies.

My comment about enlightenment was perhaps off base. I know you better than that and I apoligize.

Accepted. Enlightened may not have been the best choice in verbage, but I was looking for a word that expressed the fact that the conversation was a lot more mature and accepting in nature. What word would that be?

I have found several trannies at local yards, but they have been well over $1200 without the linkages etc. It seems the local yards are quite proud of them...or I need to adjust my thinking and expect to pay more.

Consider buying a wreck and parting out the remainder. May even break even that way on the swap.

So, riddle me this: Why do all of you auto guys feel the need to go out evangelizing the merits of your trannies? It seems you guys are into this argument like a religion. Do you get points for each "convert"?

I don't necessarily know that I feel the need. I do find it amusing that those that have made the switch are much more vocal about the merits than those of us who have always run them.

[TJRON]

I think there is a lot of truth to the auto guys acting like any one with a manual is some kind of idiot.
Statements like:
"I would not trade for a manual anything. Period!"
"The manual is worthless. At the least it needs a 4:1 kit which is in the neighborhood of $900 just for the parts."
WTF, not even a happy face!

C'mon, the baiting goes on and on by you auto guys and I don't think it's all good natured.
You guys act like you've discovered some big secret and we're too stupid to catch on. Yes, we spend money for low gearing. You think we're too stupid to realize we could throw a slush box in and make the whole thing easier and cheaper? You think the guys that spend thousands of dollars on an Atlas and 4500 do it because they're too stupid to know they can put in an auto cheaper? You insult us. Heck, I gave an auto away! It had a busted case but that's no big deal.
You guys break just as many axles, u-joints and ring gears as we do. You may think you're more smooth and gracefull than we are but you know what? We try harder and enjoy it that way. A lot of satisfaction comes from the feel of "direct drive".
I'll tell you something else. I was never more proud than the day Blaine told me there was no way he could get my Jeep through the two Hammer trails that I did with my stock transfer case. That's worth something to me!
I say maybe autos are better (easier) for doing the hard stuff but that doesn't make them more fun. A tank would be even easier, but who wants to drive a tank?

[TObject]

Originally posted by TJRON
...but who wants to drive a tank?

Me!