Where is the Islamic Outrage?

[cbassett]

ok.

[mrblaine]

The problem as I see it and the reason I refuse to get worked up about all of this crap is that no one, not our government, not the terrorists, the agendized media, the military, the Iraqis, not one in the bunch will tell the truth without some slant on it to further their own cause.

We are then left with fragments to draw our conclusions from and they will never be anything close to correct or appropriate without the information necessary to make a good informed opinion.

That said, last I checked we were and are at war. PC be damned, find anyone remotely connected to those responsible for the beheading and start dropping the biggest bombs we have.

I'm a little tired of pussyfooting around and getting our perceived asses handed to us in the media. Draw the line in the sand, those of you that can manage to crawl, stumble or jump to the side we are on, welcome, the rest better find a good place to hide.

[cbassett]

Phew, I thought someone was passing the co2 bottle around here, glad to see some clarity.

[Robert J. Yates]

folks looking for either outrage or leadership from the muslim community in the middle east might as well be waiting for hell to freeze over.

in the world of islam, its leaders for centurys have been nothing but despots, they hord wealth, they publish nothing, they teach nothing but hate, treat their women as chattle and then take this uneducated mess as nothing more than cannon fodder, ie suicide bombers for use in a cultures last dying grasp at legimacy in world that has passed them by.

shalom has it right in pointing out the situation with israel and the palestenians - they had 97% of what they wanted for land yet they rejected peace.

peace, prosperity and harmony with their world neighbors is clearly not the goal.

that should have been a lesson to us and frankly, our 9/11 response in afghanistan suffered because we did not grasp it. we should have dropped the bomb on those bastards when we had them pinned down in the mountains. that is all they understand as that's all they know. if we try to fight this war conventionally, we will be bogged down in an ideological mess and not on our terms.

folks need to come to grips that to win, we must defeat islam as it currently exists. it has been co-opted by the radicals who have no real belief and the common muslim man is powerless to stop them - so we must do it.

those promoting hate and terrorism against average citizens of the world are no different than hitler and his brown shirts and we would gave nuked them too had they not caved on themselves first.

[Bermudacat]

Very well put, Bob.



On a side note, I think a white chick holding a naked Arab man on a leash is pretty effin' funny!!!!

[Jays89YJ]

Originally posted by cbassett
Yeah, thoroughly embarassing and denigrating THE ENEMY is the equivilant of beheading, burning to death, and parading the body parts of INNOCENT CIVILIANS AND POWS. You have got to be f*cking kidding me!

I cannot agree with you more cbassett. Everyone on here comparing what some foolish, childish, US soldiers did by putting Iraqi prisoners in embarrassing positions to beheading a US Civillian is a complete MORON. The soldiers who did that are obviously immature and SHOULD NOT have been looking after Iraqi prisoners. I've been to Iraqi prisoner camps and have yet to see anyone like that watching after them.

The US soldiers who did that were Wrong. Look at them though! They're young kids just being asses because they're in charge! Dishonorable Discharge them all, send them to court and to jail. Show it on TV to quiet the Middle East.

But for those of you saying we've done equally horrible things as shown on the News compared to that Video, STFU. Like anybody on here is naive enough to think sh*t like that doesn't go on in POW camps.:rolleyes: If you are quit drooling and wake up. Of course it's going on. You don't even want to know what those Iraqis do to each other without little immature soldiers messing with them!

Think about other nations and their POW camps! Do you think that the Russians didn't toture the living FAWK out of the Afghanis when they captured them? Did some drooling Russian soldier send pics of it to the news? HELL NO. How about the Serbs fighting the Kosovars?! Do you know what happened in their POW camps? NO! Because they butchered everyone they caught and mass burried them ALL. Who knows what they did to them though? I work with Kosovars, Bosnians, Croatians. I know a BEAUTIFUL Kosovar who was captured by the Serbs, she got up to use the bathroom and the Serbian guard didn't approve of her moving, so he took a full swing with a pipe and hit her right in the head. She went down unconscious and didn't move. Later on the Serbs slaughtered the rest of the group and didn't bother putting a cpouple of rounds into her because they assumed she was dead. Other countrys' soldiers, during a time of war, are loyal to their country and KEEP THEIR MOUTHS SHUT.

[gp'n Jake]

Originally posted by mrblaine
The problem as I see it and the reason I refuse to get worked up about all of this crap is that no one, not our government, not the terrorists, the agendized media, the military, the Iraqis, not one in the bunch will tell the truth without some slant on it to further their own cause.

We are then left with fragments to draw our conclusions from and they will never be anything close to correct or appropriate without the information necessary to make a good informed opinion.

That said, last I checked we were and are at war. PC be damned, find anyone remotely connected to those responsible for the beheading and start dropping the biggest bombs we have.

I'm a little tired of pussyfooting around and getting our perceived asses handed to us in the media. Draw the line in the sand, those of you that can manage to crawl, stumble or jump to the side we are on, welcome, the rest better find a good place to hide.

i don't know if i could have said that better myself.

we won't know the real truth anytime soon...if ever. for now, the media and the goverment spin the PR machine to make us see things the way they want us to.

and blaine is right....we are at war.
too many people forget that fact. even more forget what those miserable SOBs did to us on 9/11. they forever stole the veil of freedom from every american. our lives and future will never be the same and let me tell you, i will NEVER forget the way i felt that day...ever. it was a little removed for you folks in cali, but i could see the towers burning from my town, and that terrible plume of smoke...

i'll end this here before i say some very non-PC things.

jake

[BlueJeeper]

Boy, am I glad the mid east experts finally showed up.

We sure could have used your outrage, calls for outrage, nuke throwing, line drawing, and war escalation when Iraqi insurgents were threatening to burn Japanese civilians alive.

Instead, we all had to negotiate their release on acceptable terms for both sides involved, part of which included replacing US forces with Iraqi forces.

Next time, I'll remember to tell my Senator to come get you. I don't think they knew there was a better option. I think they already knew very damn well negotiation doesn't work with Al Queda, but maybe some blanket statements will set their heads straight about the rest of Islam.

The inability to disassociate Iraqi insurgency with Al Queda terrorism, the inability to disassociate Islam with Al Queda terrorism, is deafening and frankly quite frightening to me.

[Paradiddle]

Iraqis Shocked by Beheading, Despair Over Violence

By Ghaith Abdul-Ahad

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Most Baghdad residents on Wednesday condemned al Qaeda's beheading of a U.S. civilian in Iraq (news - web sites), but many said his death was just the latest atrocity in a cycle of violence that is driving them to despair.



A Web site video showed a masked man cutting off the head of Nick Berg, a 26-year-old civilian, and said al Qaeda's leader in Iraq had personally carried out the killing in revenge for abuses against Iraqi prisoners.


Berg went missing last month when dozens of foreigners were seized by guerrillas after Marines launched a crackdown in the city of Falluja. The Marine operation followed the killing and grisly mutilation of four U.S. security guards in the city.


"The Americans killed hundreds in Falluja in retaliation for the mutilation of the four Americans and now those people are killing an American in retaliation for the torture of prisoners," said Arkan Mohammad, a cleric at Baghdad University.


"Someone has to do something to stop the cycle of violence from going on and on."


Even in the Baghdad Sunni Muslim stronghold of Adhamiya, where there is fierce opposition to the occupation, many residents were appalled by the decapitation of Berg.


"We denounce this act. No-one can accept the killing of another human being in this horrible way," said Yassir Saleh, a 30-year-old barber. But he too pointed to a tide of violence that has swept the country since the fall of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites).


"Sometimes I really can't understand the logic of what is happening, all the violence that I could have never imagined would take place in my country," he said.


Many Iraqis say they oppose the U.S.-led occupation but also despise insurgents whose suicide attacks, mortar strikes and bomb blasts have killed far more Iraqis than Americans.


Issa al-Khalidi, a 65-year-old pensioner sitting in one of the oldest coffeehouses in Adhamiya, also condemned the killing but looked around nervously as he did.


"It's a brutal, inhuman act. As Muslims our religion prohibits us from committing such acts," he said.


"People with their own interpretations of Islam are coming to this country and killing left and right, and the Americans are just providing them with the pretext to do so."


But some of the city's poorer residents said they supported the killing, arguing it was acceptable retribution for the abuses the U.S. military had committed in Iraq.


"This is the price they have to pay for what they have done," said 33-year-old Omar Khateb, a labourer.


"It was done according to Islamic Sharia, and the Americans should know that there is a price they will pay for the atrocities they commit."

[gp'n Jake]

rick, if you're referring to me...

terrorism is terrorism is terrorism. bottom line.

i'm not some child that can't tell the difference between the Iraqi insurgency and Al Queda terrorism or disassociate Islam with Al Queda terrorism. i can see them quite clearly and i recognize that they are not the same thing. forgive if my rage is above yours. forgive me if my HATERED for those that want to do harm to our county is above yours. you didn't see the towers burn. you didn't have your friends spared b/c they happened to be at meeting in jersey city, and out of manhattan. you didn't have you best friend, and best man, in the rubble hours later searching for bodies.

spare me your nonsense. really.

if you're not referring to me, than disregard the above statements.

[William]

Originally posted by cbassett
DO NOT compare the beheading of an INNOCENT CIVILIAN to the "mistreatment" of THE ENEMY!

The person(s) that leaked the prison photos to the press should be considered an enemy of the State, imprisoned, and tried for treason.

We are expected to stay on the high ground. There is a slippery slope from sodomy and rape of prisoners, and the absolute worst moral crime on them in a cultural sense and the beheding of people.

The person who leaked the photos brought attention to a problem that needed to be addressed, properly. I just wish that justice would have been served faster than it was, such that when the story broke, it would have been "we found out, we fixed" rather than a "WTF are we doing, o ****, we better hammer someone".

[NAILER341]

I cannot agree with you more cbassett. Everyone on here comparing what some foolish, childish, US soldiers did by putting Iraqi prisoners in embarrassing positions to beheading a US Civillian is a complete MORON. The soldiers who did that are obviously immature and SHOULD NOT have been looking after Iraqi prisoners. I've been to Iraqi prisoner camps and have yet to see anyone like that watching after them.

here is that forked tongue again...
oh its ok, we are at war... you gotta do what you gotta do, bla bla bla... then from the same tongue is how these immateur twits werent taking care of the prisoners properly.

as stated above, i realize we are at war,and i have no problem with killing our oposition in any way shape or form on the batlefield. HOWEVER, when one becomes a prisoner of war it is a different level of the battlefield.

on the battle field, we could drop the bomb on their asses, and that would be ok. we could have our guys running around with swords chopping all of their heads off and that would be ok too. now if we were to capture a bunch of them, and force them to shove m80's up each others ass and blow them up... not ok. there are rules as to how to treat prisoners. they broke those rules and made it appear as all american soldiers treat prisoners in this fassion. not good.

of course, what the masked assholes did by chopping off the head of a civilian is WORSE, but we are dealing with a lower class of people over there with a terrorist frame of mind. it does not make it ok for our guards to do weird things to their prisoners.
kill them on the battlefield, and be done with it.. dont bring them to the cage and demean them

[Daless2]

Let me see if I can state some facts, and then give some observations of my own.

I believe it is FACT that Nick Berg was Beheaded and put on the Web by an Al Queda Lt. in charge of Iraq. Yes?

How do we know this? The guy with the knife cutting off his head told us! He also heard shouting "Allahu Akbar!" ? or "God is great."


I believe it is FACT that Nick Berg was Beheaded and put on the Web in the Name of Islam. Yes?

How do we know this? The guy with the knife cutting off his head told the world in Arabic! and in print on the web site.


So please tell me again, why don't Muslim's rise up on World Wide Outrage at the hijacking of their religion?

Could it be for some of these reasons posted above?

"Issa al-Khalidi, a 65-year-old pensioner sitting in one of the oldest coffeehouses in Adhamiya, also condemned the killing but looked around nervously as he did."

Hmmmm....... I think I see some fight or flight here, mostly flight!


or maybe

"It's a brutal, inhuman act. As Muslims our religion prohibits us from committing such acts,"

To which I say, as long as you rely on your religion to prevent this it will never be prevented. Fix it. Take your religion back!

Unreasonable?


Or perhaps;

"People with their own interpretations of Islam are coming to this country and killing left and right, and the Americans are just providing them with the pretext to do so."

I have the same unreasonable request that Muslin's take back their peaceful religion from those who have hi-jacked it.


Again, is it really unreasonable to Expect? to Demand? I don;t think so.


Then there is;

"It was done according to Islamic Sharia, and the Americans should know that there is a price they will pay for the atrocities they commit."

This sounds to me like someone is saying that Islam says this is ok to do. But I could be wrong.


I have a hard time hearing "Kill the Infidels" in one breath and not hearing a chorus of Outrage from the peoples of that faith.

Can you imagine the Chorus of Outrage that would be heard if someone said "Kill the Muslims"?

We all know what would happen, and we all know we are Not Hearing the Outrage from the World's Muslim Community over this.

I do not hear Al-jazzera condemning this in the Name of Islam. And I do not see a world wide Uprising of those of the Muslin Faith to stop it.

Do you?


Instead I see fear and paralysis, I see the choice of "flight" rather then "fight" for doing what is right, not only in this situation but for their own religion.

"Islam is a Peaceful Religion" is indeed incongruent with NO action to stop those who preach "kill the infidels".

It is indeed worse then a soldier standing by and simply watching prisoner abuse and doing nothing to stop it.

(Read that "I am a good soldier, I didn't do anything wrong to those prisoners. I just stood there and watched! It wasn't my job to fight with other soldiers. I wasn't trained to do that!")

Mark my words, this one, this act, this beheading will indeed be the straw that breaks the camels back.

The Islamic Community, World Wide has now been forced into a corner. Forced to choose. How they Choose will indeed be decisive, even though the choice they must make is very very clear.

Police yourself.
Remove those who do not represent you from representing you;
Else you will bare the consequences of their actions as your own.
Simply by doing NOTHING you will be inditeted by the world , just like a soldier, and rightfully so.

It is simply that time. Time to choose and time to make clear what the right choice is.

Does anyone believe there is more then one right choice here?

Here are the choices for review:
1. Islam is a Religion which practices "Kill the Infidels"
or
2. Islam is my religion and peaceful to all peoples, even non believers.


There is no need to hate people becuase they are different, nor is there need to turn desserts into glass becuase we have the ability.

But there is a need for people, all people to get on the same page.

I want to hear, and hold their feet to the fire till I do hear, a comdemnation, world wide by those who's religion this is being praticed under.


This is more then my right to expect civilized behavior, to expect of the people of the world how legitimately practice a "peaceful religion" to rise up and take their religion back from the murderers

Yes more then a right. It is the "right" thing to do and the right thing to Demand, and each and every one of us should be demanding the same thing.

Time to choose, no more "I didn't do anything. All I did was watch!"


Frank

[NAILER341]

very well said.

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by Rick Bernotas
The inability to disassociate Iraqi insurgency with Al Queda terrorism, the inability to disassociate Islam with Al Queda terrorism, is deafening and frankly quite frightening to me.

it should be - that started with their own people and thjey have done nothing within their own ranks to curb it either.

[Paradiddle]

Arab Media Play Down, Ignore Beheading

By ZEINA KARAM, Associated Press Writer

BEIRUT, Lebanon - Arab media reacted cautiously Wednesday to the videotaped beheading of an American civilian by Islamic militants in Iraq (news - web sites), with some newspapers conspicuously playing it down or even ignoring it.


The biggest pan-Arab satellite television channels broadcast an edited version of the gruesome video, not showing the actual killing of Nick Berg, 26, of West Chester, Pa., a Philadelphia suburb. The businessman was abducted in April.


In one of the most explicit displays, Kuwait's Al-Siyassah daily ran a photo of a masked militant holding up Berg's severed head.


The video of the execution was released on the Internet too late for some Middle East newspaper columnists to react to it. The killing, attributed to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's group, appalled many Arabs.


Some opinion-makers condemned the killing.


"This shows how base and vile those who wear the robe of Islam have become," said Abdullah Sahar, a Kuwait University political scientist.


Some said it surpassed the American military's abuse of Iraqi prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison, which has been the top story for the past 10 days in the Middle East.


"We were winning international sympathy because of what happened at Abu Ghraib, but they come and waste it all," said Abdullah Sahar, a Kuwait University political scientist, said of the Islamic militants responsible.


In the video, the masked militants said they were taking revenge on Berg because of the abuses at the Baghdad prison.


Mustafa Bakri, editor of Al-Osboa weekly newspaper in Egypt, said Berg's death will only hurt efforts to expose American offenses against Iraqis.


"Such revenge is rejected," Bakri said of the execution. "The American administration will make use of such crimes just to cover their real crimes against Iraqis."


Bakri spoke as he took part in a Cairo demonstration by about 50 Egyptian journalists and lawyers against American human rights abuses in Iraq.


Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabiya, the big two satellite networks, aired carefully edited versions of the video. In Al-Arabiya's edit, a militant is seen drawing a knife and jerking Berg's body to one side. The rest is not shown.


"The news story itself is strong enough," said Jihad Ballout, spokesman for Qatar-based Al-Jazeera. "To show the actual beheading is out of the realm of decency."


Lebanon's private Al Hayat-LBC station led its bulletins Wednesday with the video. Its news presenter said: "We apologize to our viewers for not showing the entire tape because of the ugliness of the scene."


Kuwait state television broadcast the news of the execution late Tuesday but not the video.


Iraqi newspapers reported nothing about the killing, although it may have broken to late for them.





Egypt's leading daily, Al-Ahram, ignored the beheading Wednesday. Two other major pro-government newspapers ran news agency reports on their inside pages, without photos.

An Al-Ahram editor, Ahmed Reda, said the news came too late Tuesday night for the paper to confirm the video's authenticity with the U.S. government.

Newspapers in Syria, where the government controls the press tightly, did not report it at all.

A professor of journalism at the American University in Cairo, Hussein Amin, said the handling of the story by Egypt's pro-government papers was political and appropriate.

"I think that the government does not want to show this on the front page as a main item because it shows a very poor ? poor is not the proper word; disgusting maybe is the better word ? example of revenge," Amin said. "There is also the threat that it could be happening to other Americans. If they put it on the front page, (it could be seen as) they are favoring this kind of action."

Jordanian newspapers, state television and radio reported Berg's killing, but without commentary.

Most Lebanese newspapers, such as the left-wing As-Safir, published the report and a photograph of Berg sitting in front of the militants. As-Safir ran the headline: "Al-Zarqawi slaughters an American to avenge Iraqi prisoners."

In many Arab newspapers, the beheading received less display than the news of America's imposing sanctions on Syria and the killing of six Israeli soldiers in Gaza City.

[BlueJeeper]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
it should be - that started with their own people and thjey have done nothing within their own ranks to curb it either.

Because why Robert? Because why?

Because we loaded their ass with arms in the name of Islam fighting the Soviet Communists, that's why.

I'd be f***ing confused as hell too. The foreign policy of this country is as hypocritical as it gets over the past 30 years.

This is total horsesh**. We are asking millions of people to clean out their own closet before we clean out our own, which is an order of magnitude dirtier.

I know exactly where to start, but I'll keep that to myself.

[Paradiddle]

Frank,

Your comments are logical as usual and very poingent. Remember though that every religion has it's fringe. There are Christian Fundamentalists that murder doctors, there are Catholic Priests that sodomize little boys, etc. etc. There is outrage from those groups as well - but it took a lot of public scorn to get the Catholic religion off it's butt and into action to "police themselves". The average Christian has disdain for the radicals that bomb abortion clinics, but I don't seem them shouting from the rooftops.

This war has one very strong similarity to Korea and Vietnam - we are fighting non-caucasions. Both sides have deep veins of racism and neither side thinks their opponent is an "equal" human. I think this really factors into how we perceive and treat the enemy and how they treat us.

One major factor is this war, and it's one that we haven't had to deal with for a long long time in conflict, and that is the religious factor. These people that we are fighting truely believe we are an enemy of God. That is some strong stuff, they are an enemy of our Freedom, but we are an enemy of their FAITH. Couple that with the fact that this region has been warring over God for thousands of years and it's a dicey situation at best.

In the reality of war this beheading doesn't even compare to the Nazi's torture and slaughter of the Jews and the Japanise treatment of American POWs in the Pacific - the Bataan Death March, etc. Please don't assume I condone this - this act sickens me and I'd like nothing more then to see us level their entire country and turn it into a parking lot for Disneyland Paris.

There is a reason the Geneva Convention exists - and it's for just this reason. We can't violate it on one hand then expect a religiously crazed opponent not to do the same.

Note that the Terrorists violated article 3 of the Geneva Convention when they executed a civilian without due process.

PART II

GENERAL PROTECTION OF PRISONERS OF WAR

Article 12

Prisoners of war are in the hands of the enemy Power, but not of the individuals or military units who have captured them. Irrespective of the individual responsibilities that may exist, the Detaining Power is responsible for the treatment given them.

Prisoners of war may only be transferred by the Detaining Power to a Power which is a party to the Convention and after the Detaining Power has satisfied itself of the willingness and ability of such transferee Power to apply the Convention. When prisoners of war are transferred under such circumstances, responsibility for the application of the Convention rests on the Power accepting them while they are in its custody.

Nevertheless if that Power fails to carry out the provisions of the Convention in any important respect, the Power by whom the prisoners of war were transferred shall, upon being notified by the Protecting Power, take effective measures to correct the situation or shall request the return of the prisoners of war. Such requests must be complied with.

Article 13

Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.

Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited.

Article 14

Prisoners of war are entitled in all circumstances to respect for their persons and their honour. Women shall be treated with all the regard due to their sex and shall in all cases benefit by treatment as favourable as that granted to men. Prisoners of war shall retain the full civil capacity which they enjoyed at the time of their capture. The Detaining Power may not restrict the exercise, either within or without its own territory, of the rights such capacity confers except in so far as the captivity requires.

Article 15

The Power detaining prisoners of war shall be bound to provide free of charge for their maintenance and for the medical attention required by their state of health.

Article 16

Taking into consideration the provisions of the present Convention relating to rank and sex, and subject to any privileged treatment which may be accorded to them by reason of their state of health, age or professional qualifications, all prisoners of war shall be treated alike by the Detaining Power, without any adverse distinction based on race, nationality, religious belief or political opinions, or any other distinction founded on similar criteria.

...

Article 27

Clothing, underwear and footwear shall be supplied to prisoners of war in sufficient quantities by the Detaining Power, which shall make allowance for the climate of the region where the prisoners are detained. Uniforms of enemy armed forces captured by the Detaining Power should, if suitable for the climate, be made available to clothe prisoners of war.

The regular replacement and repair of the above articles shall be assured by the Detaining Power. In addition, prisoners of war who work shall receive appropriate clothing, wherever the nature of the work demands.

I'm amazed at all the rules in the Geneva Convention - for example the GC states that prisoners must be afforded the same type/size/etc. of "lodging" as the soldiers in the area. Amazing stuff that really surprises me.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

Interesting reading.

All in all Blaine said it best - this is a messy situation in which none of us has the entire truth and the best we can do it use our experiences in life to make our own conclusions.

Jeff

[Daless2]

Hi Jeff,

Yes I am very aware of the Articles of War and what they mean, but this isn't a discussion on that topic.


It is a discussion on some very simple facts that we do know, and an opportunity to act on those facts with one voice.

In the Name of Islam, Nick Berg was beheaded. (Not my words, the words of the man with the knife.)


I want to know who's Islam that is? Who stands behind it, and who rejects it loudly!


Is it everyone of the Muslim faith? (Certainly not!)


So then I want to hear it is not, and I believe it is not, I do not think it is unreasonable to be condemning and stopping those who do wrong in your name. I Expect it.

It really is that simple.


For the Christian's of the world, it is the classic "Come to Jesus Time",

For those of Islamic faith perhaps it is "Come to Allah Time." (meaning no disrespect.)


Either way, this is the opportunity to force the choice. No standing on the sidelines anymore.

What is it "Murder the Infidels" or "A Peaceful Religion"

I believe it is a peaceful religion, but the longer it goes, with people of this religion standing on the sideline doing nothing to reclaim the perversion of their religion, the longer this inhumanity will exist.


Time to choose. Time to Force a Choice!, not cower from it.


The world is at a crossroad here.

A choice will be made.

Not becuase I say so, but becuase the strategy and tactic that got us here, purely by accident, is impossible to be ignored.

The end has already been defined, and we already know the answer ANY Reasonable person would choose. All that is left is to hear the answer, and swell out the venom.


Frank

[Jays89YJ]

Originally posted by NAILER341
here is that forked tongue again...
oh its ok, we are at war... you gotta do what you gotta do, bla bla bla... then from the same tongue is how these immateur twits werent taking care of the prisoners properly.

as stated above, i realize we are at war,and i have no problem with killing our oposition in any way shape or form on the batlefield. HOWEVER, when one becomes a prisoner of war it is a different level of the battlefield.

on the battle field, we could drop the bomb on their asses, and that would be ok. we could have our guys running around with swords chopping all of their heads off and that would be ok too. now if we were to capture a bunch of them, and force them to shove m80's up each others ass and blow them up... not ok. there are rules as to how to treat prisoners. they broke those rules and made it appear as all american soldiers treat prisoners in this fassion. not good.

of course, what the masked assholes did by chopping off the head of a civilian is WORSE, but we are dealing with a lower class of people over there with a terrorist frame of mind. it does not make it ok for our guards to do weird things to their prisoners.
kill them on the battlefield, and be done with it.. dont bring them to the cage and demean them

Did I SAY IT WAS RIGHT TO DO?! What are you talking about? I said it was WRONG. But you know as well as I do and everyone else does, this stuff happens in POW camps! Other countries which do things similar to what those soldiers did ,do it too! BUT their soldiers are too proud and too LOYAL to their country to let that crap leak out into the media to ruin their reputation to the rest of the world. Our military isn't as strict as it used to be. The govt. needs to take swift action. They will be dealt with I'm sure.

[BlueJeeper]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/12/opinion/12KRIS.html

Overdosing on Islam
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

Published: May 12, 2004


QOM, Iran ? In the offices of an ayatollah here, I was jokingly introduced as coming from the Great Satan.

"Humph," a young man responded immediately. "America is only Baby Satan. We have Big Satan right here at home."

Turbans to the left, turbans to the right ? Qom is the religious center of Iran, but even here, there is anger and disquiet. One of the central questions for the Middle East is whether Iran's hard-line Islamic regime will survive. I'm betting it won't.

"Either officials change their methods and give freedom to the people, and stop interfering in elections, or the people will rise up with another revolution," Grand Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri told me.

"There is no freedom," added Ayatollah Montazeri, who is among the senior figures in the Shiite world but is excluded from power in Iran because of his reformist ideas. "Repression is carried out in the name of Islam, and that turns people off. . . . All these court summonses, newspaper closings and prosecutions of dissidents are wrong. These are the same things that were done under the shah and are now being repeated. And now they are done in the name of Islam and therefore alienate people."

Whoa! Ayatollah Montazeri was a leader of the Islamic Revolution, and was initially designated by his close friend Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini to be his successor as supreme leader of Iran. Everything he says carries immense credibility, for he is a more senior religious figure than any of Iran's present leaders. (I've posted comments by Ayatollah Montazeri, along with a video of the interview, at www.nytimes.com/kristofresponds, Posting 389.)

Another Shiite leader outside the club of power, Ayatollah Jalaledin Taheri, has denounced the regime as "society's dregs and fascists who consist of a concoction of ignorance and madness. . . . [and] those who are convinced that yogurt is black."

So the Islamic Republic is increasingly vulnerable to the most devastating accusation of all: that it is un-Islamic and is alienating its youth from Islam. The mullahs have even made beards unpopular.

"I'm sorry ? I've been too busy to shave recently," said Ashkan Almasi, a musician, mortified at having a faint beard and not wanting me to get the wrong idea about his politics. "In contrast to what [leading Islamic philosophers] say, this regime is the very opposite of Islamic government," Mr. Almasi said. "It has made Islam unpopular."

On the 1,100-mile round trip between Tehran and Shiraz in the south, I did meet some staunch supporters of the regime. But my experience at a teahouse in a small town was more typical. With a small crowd around me, I asked people what they thought of the government.

"How can you have hope for life any more?" said Abdullah Erfani, a plumber, adding, "If there were a free vote, 99 percent would oppose this system, and only the 1 percent within the system would support it."

A 20-year-old, Hadi Zareai, working hard to look cool in his leather jacket, said: "There will be a Judgment Day, and all of us will meet up. Then I'm going to find those who launched the Islamic Revolution and go after them."

In much of the world, young Muslims are increasingly religious, but compulsive Islam has soured some Iranians on religion. Fewer people go to Friday prayers, and Western-style clothes are the hottest fashion.

One young woman I met, Elaheh Falakmasir, is religious and inclined to support the regime. But smoke was almost pouring from her ears because she and a couple of friends had been kicked out of an exhibition a few hours earlier for being floozies: one wore a red vest over her black overcoat, and Ms. Falakmasir herself wore a silver nose stud.

"I like it," she said hotly. "It's beautiful. God likes it. But they complained." And so the regime alienated three more constituents who want to be good Muslims ? but also want to live in a modern world.

There's a useful lesson here for George Bush's America as well as for the ayatollahs' Iran: when a religion is imposed on people, when a government tries too ostentatiously to put itself "under God," the effect is often not to prop up religious faith but to undermine it. Nothing is more lethal to religious faith than having self-righteous, intolerant politicians (who wince at nose studs) drag God into politics.

[William]

Originally posted by Daless2
Time to choose. Time to Force a Choice!, not cower from it.

The world is at a crossroad here.

A choice will be made.

Not becuase I say so, but becuase the strategy and tactic that got us here, purely by accident, is impossible to be ignored.

The end has already been defined, and we already know the answer ANY Reasonable person would choose. All that is left is to hear the answer, and swell out the venom.

Frank

Leadership. We need some leadership. Someone who the world, like them or not, trust.

Today on NPR (yes I listen to NPR) I heard an intersting quote.

"The enviroment is important, but not as important as the hate in the world today. We should stop talking green house gasses and trade issue and start talking about who is against who, and how to resolve it."

Or about that.

Anyway, it's time to define things. What I'd like to know is where is the outrage from the Spanish, the French, the UN?

Where is the @#$@#$ UN?

Sitting back at the mess THEY started when Kuwait was invaded. They did nothing afterwords except sit, talk, sit, talk. 10 years of sanctions and "well, let's pass a resolution". They let the wound fester, and now, here we are.

Sadly, Nick was not "important enough" to stir the outrage needed to spark further action. I think he was. But I'm not in the driver seat.

[TObject]

I have one question to ask.

After watching the video, do we still have anybody who thinks that war isn't hell?

I couldn't sleep well last night, and let me tell you, I didn't like what I saw one bit.

[TObject]

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=5119272

[Daless2]

Imagine that,

Husbullah (Spelling) just came out forcefully and condemed the beheading as Un-Islamic and Horriffic!

See things can change. I beleive that with all that I am!

More, the world needs more!!!

There is only one choice, and they choose it correctly.


Frank

[Sephiroth]

Vary disturbing video, the poor kid had no clue as to what was about to happen to him. One could only wonder what will be done now to the GI they captured. Who the hell released the pictures of the prison?? Could they not have had any idea of the danger they put our captives in??

[Paradiddle]

Originally posted by Sephiroth
Vary disturbing video, the poor kid had no clue as to what was about to happen to him. One could only wonder what will be done now to the GI they captured. Who the hell released the pictures of the prison?? Could they not have had any idea of the danger they put our captives in??

Unfortunately most people only think about themselves and not the consequences of their actions.

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by Rick Bernotas
Because why Robert? Because why?

Because we loaded their ass with arms in the name of Islam fighting the Soviet Communists, that's why.

I'd be f***ing confused as hell too. The foreign policy of this country is as hypocritical as it gets over the past 30 years.

This is total horsesh**. We are asking millions of people to clean out their own closet before we clean out our own, which is an order of magnitude dirtier.

I know exactly where to start, but I'll keep that to myself.

that is along the same lines hitler used after ww1 to incite the hatred of jews amongst the german population and I flat out reject it.

sure our hands are dirty but then they have plenty of dirt ontheir own hands. the saudi's are a perfect example with their philosophy of wahabbism.

I believe I understand your point but it is now beyond that. witness al sudr - saddam hussien killed his father and brother and due directly to our taking him out, al sudr is free to preach so what does he do? that's right, he incited his followers against us. logically that makes no sense unlee you determine that the leaders of islam want us all dead. that says to me its us or them and I will pick us everytime if that's the choice. the situation in israel is no different - the arabs rejected peace there too.

[BlueJeeper]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
that is along the same lines hitler used after ww1 to incite the hatred of jews amongst the german population and I flat out reject it.

You lost me there. Perhaps I was not clear. In no manner are anyones' hands clean in all of this, and some are much dirtier than others, Islamic fundamentalists included. However, to suggest that there is nothing being done from within the Islamic community, simply because all we hear about are a few bad apples, is a complete falsification of the truth. In fact, the logic is the same as the left-wing agenda that portends that since the majority of the news coming out of Iraq is bad, the whole effort is a sham. Just not true.

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by Rick Bernotas
You lost me there. Perhaps I was not clear. In no manner are anyones' hands clean in all of this, and some are much dirtier than others, Islamic fundamentalists included. However, to suggest that there is nothing being done from within the Islamic community, simply because all we hear about are a few bad apples, is a complete falsification of the truth. In fact, the logic is the same as the left-wing agenda that portends that since the majority of the news coming out of Iraq is bad, the whole effort is a sham. Just not true.

a few bad apples????? you're kidding right? you have entire states sanctioning radical islam being taught in madrasa's with very little else being taught to their people and you seriously want to believe its a few bad apples? I don' teven know where to begin with that but let's start with palestinian suicide bombers to which there seems to be an un-ending supply except the reality is that most are coerced into committing their act either for money, ignorance and in arafats dirty little world, fear for their familys well being if they don't commit the act.

bin ladan and his followers are the tip of the iceberge but even if they weren't, you would have to admit that with islamic terrorist acts being committed virtually all over the globe, its more than a few bd apples. read up on the saudis sometime - and those fawks are supposed to be our friends. those leading the religion want us and our way of life dead but you won't believe that the same way I won't believe its just a few bad guys causing all this ruckus. i'm out.