Modified rear shock location for a TJ

[Robert J. Yates]

If folks are worried about a rear impact, I guess then they should also be revisiting what they have done to vehicle integrity by installing improved rear bumpers and gas tank skids.

Between the 3/16ths Currie rear bumper and the 3/16ths Kilby skid, I have much more metal tied into the rear of my rig than what came from the factory. These modifications are then compounded by issues related to lift. If we are going to talk about getting rear ended, then lift most certainly is an issue as I am fairly certain that Jeep doesn't crash test TJ's with any suspension lift on them, much less with 4" of suspension lift in my caser along with an additional 75lbs or so of metal hanging off the rear end. To me, these points would by themselves, obviate any crash or impact absorbing data/results that are/were produced by the factory for my TJ - making any of our discussion on frame viablity, energy absorbtion and crash test data simply that, opinionated discussion.

My unscientific self says that whomever decides they want to rear end me will be hating it as they will most likely, go under my rig and hit my rear diff with the lowest part of their vehicle, ie the bumper and then leaving exposed, the soft innards of the hood and fender tops to run into my gas tank skid and rear bumper with hitch and clevis. In that instance, as long as the ramming vehicle in question is not some lifted pimp daddy F250, then I believe my frame will be just fine. It appears to have held up just fine so far with a trip over the Rubicon, and several out at JV.

As an aside, if anybody wants a lesson in non boxed frames and vehicle flex, I will be more than happy to take them for a ride in my Suburban. C channel frame with lots of flex are an everyday fact of life for me

[TJRON]

Looking from the rear, are the shocks mounted vertical or are they mounted to the outside a bit on the axle?

As far as the strength thing goes in a rear ender I figure my drive train and some soft steel is about all I have between me and the guy that hits me no matter what mods I do to my bumper, shocks, lift, etc.

What? Me Worry? No way

[Ace!]

Stu, I?m not a mechanical engineer, and have never played one on TV . I am an auto/motorcycle insurance adjuster that has experience with frame damage/repair. Take that for what it?s worth. My hope is that my post is relevant and helpful in answering your original question. If nothing more, I feel all warm inside from having addressed it

[TObject]

Before my shocks were done this way, I could literally roll my jeep on a flat spot just by turning wheels to the left, and hitting gas. Now, my jeep drives so much nicer on the road, it handles the road and side wind much better.

Stock rear TJ shock setup effectiveness deteriorates dramatically when the suspension geometry changes due to lift. It just flat doesn?t work well back there, and the factor is multiplied by cheap shocks that usually come as part of suspension lifts.

This above is just my opinion. If I had another lifted TJ that I had to drive on the steet, I'd be first in line bugging mrblaine do do the shocks on it.

[TJRON]

Originally posted by TJRON
Looking from the rear, are the shocks mounted vertical or are they mounted to the outside a bit on the axle?

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by TJRON

When viewed directly from the rear, the mount and the shock both slant outwards from the top. That gives about the right clearance for the can to clear the bottom part of the frame.

[TJRON]

Thank You!

[Stu Olson]

Many thanks to Blaine for the help in making this happen on my TJ.

Here is my write-up for the shock conversion:

http://www.stu-offroad.com/rearshock/rearshock-1.htm

[Chris L]

Great right up stu!

[karstman]

Sweet!
Thanks for sharing the write-up.

[Tim]

Originally posted by Stu Olson
Many thanks to Blaine for the help in making this happen on my TJ.

Here is my write-up for the shock conversion:

http://www.stu-offroad.com/rearshock/rearshock-1.htm

excellent!
i remember seeing this when blaine did it at a earlier time and wanted see a good w/u.

that looks like a great mod. my compliments to blaine's fab skills and stu's website.

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by Ace!
my post is relevant and helpful in answering your original question. If nothing more, I feel all warm inside from having addressed it

You forget that alot of the folks on this board wheel together as well as communicate by other means, and not simply rely on this board for the totality of technical discussion. The fact that you may not see what you believe to be a "proper" response here doesn't mean the question was blown off and in fact should tell you that the original poster probably received a phone call so that the question could be responded to personally.

BTW, how long have you been adjusting out of curiosity - you weren't doing that down here last I recall.

[William]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
BTW, how long have you been adjusting out of curiosity - you weren't doing that down here last I recall.

Long enough to be an authority eh?

[Ace!]

I didn?t forget Robert. Doesn?t make any difference... public question on a public board. I don?t think Stu?s the only one interested in the answer.

I don?t remember my hire date, but I posted when I got my job, so you may find the exact date by searching. I?ve been doing it long enough to provide knowledgable feedback.

Now I?m curious, not that my TJ is a daily driver. What do you think will happen in a rear-end collision with that mod? Ever take an I-Car course or ASE certification test? What did you learn about frame design and damage?

[Stu Olson]

I guess we will have to find out once one of us with the modification gets rear ended.

Here is a question I've kicked around once in a while....I grew up in the upper midwest....."salt city" on the roads in the winter. Many family cars had rust through the sheet metal before you made the last payment. If I had bought a CJ-7 back in the 80's and was still driving that on the roads in Minnesota today.....what do you think would happen to it in a rear-end collision?

Now, given the fact that Arizona CJ-7s that have never seen salt or snow suffer from cracks in the frame (as me, I can introduce you to my buddy who has had his patched two different times), how would a rusted out CJ in Minnesota handle a rear end crunch? (salt corroded and frame stressed before it ever was hit)

I realize this all revolves arround the issue of the last couple feet of the TJ frame being compromised or not compromised.....but do we get so fixiated on one thing that we lose sight of the big picture?

Just kind of wondering.....

[mrblaine]

Just out of curiosity, how many on here check their trackbar on a weekly basis? I have seen a total of 5 so far that were in danger of, or did remove themselves from the frame. I am talking the whole frame side mount being ripped right off the frame.

Of all the things that I know of that I would worry about, something as important as the ability to steer effectively is right up there near the top of the list. Brakes would be a close second. Somewhere near the bottom of the worry list is how my frame will react in a rear impact.

I suggest that most spend their time worrying about the easily fixed important stuff.

I don't know how the rear frame modification will affect anything in a rear end collision. I also know that no one else does either.

You can speculate until your ears fall off and until someone actually gets rearended, all you are doing is speculating. Even in the event of a collision, the factors and forces vary so greatly that I doubt that no two rear collisions will produce the exact same result.

So before anyone continues with the speculation, I only ask of them to prove something, anything, but don't speculate. I ain't even buying educated guesses.

[Jeff Weston]

Originally posted by Ace!
Now I?m curious, not that my TJ is a daily driver. What do you think will happen in a rear-end collision with that mod? Ever take an I-Car course or ASE certification test? What did you learn about frame design and damage?

I know exactly what will happen to my TJ in a rearend collision here in CA. Since everybody is required by law to carry liability insurance (and this is not a no-fault state), their insurance will pay for the repairs to my Jeep. If by some chance they are uninsured (imagine that ), my uninsured motorist coverage will take care of it.

Maybe things are different in small town Oregon, but here in L.A., it has been my experience the insurance company's primary interest is in any injuries. File a claim and that'll be the first thing they ask about. "Was anybody injured? No, good. Just drop your vehicle off at the repair shop and everything else will be taken care of. Is there anything else I can help you with?"

Tell me Ace, as an adjuster, are you going to dare try to deny a claim on somebody your client hit because you see he did a frame modification which may or may not have contributed to the damage? Hell no, you'll just be glad that noone is hurt and that they won't sue you in exhange for you fixing their vehicle and paying for a rental car. Am I wrong? Wouldn't you settle and authorize the repairs before somebody's neck starts hurting? Or, would you risk litigation by denying the claim?

As for frame damage, I know nothing is beyond bending, be it stock or modified.

You asked questions and people responded. Please anwer honestly if you would try this claim. I'm curious what you would do.

Thanks!

[TJRON]

Originally posted by mrblaine
Just out of curiosity, how many on here check their trackbar on a weekly basis? I have seen a total of 5 so far that were in danger of, or did remove themselves from the frame. I am talking the whole frame side mount being ripped right off the frame.

I do! I do!
Seeing as how I ripped mine out along with a chunk of the frame last summer. I also check the rear track bar and all axle welds at least once a week.
I check my rear end for collisions too. So far it's OK.

[William]

Originally posted by mrblaine
Just out of curiosity, how many on here check their trackbar on a weekly basis

Since mine broke off the axle backing into the drive way, I check it at least twice a month, and before and after wheeling trips.

I'm glad it happened there, and not on the street.

I shudder to think what would have happened on the front end.

[Jeff Weston]

Originally posted by Jeff Weston
You asked questions and people responded. Please anwer honestly if you would try this claim. I'm curious what you would do.

I'm still waiting for the answers Ace! You do visit this forum to promote discussion and the exchange of information, no? You didn't just do a hit and run to stir things up, now did you?

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by Ace!
Ever take an I-Car course or ASE certification test? What did you learn about frame design and damage?

No and not claiming I have - and thanx for blowing off my discussion about having lift and after market accessories (such as heavy bumpers and gas tank skids on your rig) and their influence on crash testing. What does your precious little I-Car course have to say about that?

[Cement_guy]

I trust I don't need to add a link in the stupid posts section to see how the rocket scientists on JU are reacting to someone cutting their frame, do I?

[Jeff Weston]

Blaine,

Do you view the shock relocator kit mentioned on JU as a better solution or merely a viable solution for those who don't wish to cut their frame? Like Ron said in that post, it doesn't seem to help the shock length. I'm not overly concerned with ramp travel, per se, I just want to choose the better of the two. Obviously, by going with that kit it would be less demanding on your time as the fab guru. I was going to buy the 9005's for the other conversion but now I'm not sure what to do.

Thanks!

[Ace!]

*****
Jeff, I didn?t respond for two reasons. I?m not on line often, and your post has nothing to do with the original post. I didn?t see the relevance of your post, and I?m not sure I fully understand it. If you have genuine questions about how ?I? would handle a claim you should e-mail me (I check my e-mail a couple times a week, but not this forum).

To answer your question, I?m not going to ?dare try? to deny any claim, if I can find coverage. If a vehicle has this modification the frame will likely be replaced if involved in a rear end collision, if the frame is damaged. It?s approx $3100 to replace a stock frame (on my 1998 TJ), plus a bunch of incidentals. If anything else is damaged, well the price goes up.

If someone is hurt the price of vehicle repair doesn?t change. If someone is hurt, it does not affect the point where a vehicle becomes a total loss (structural or economic). IMHO, it?s unethical to change the value of a loss based on whether there is a probability of litigation. As a matter of fact, many insurance companies will not let the same adjuster handle the injury portion, liability portion, and the property damage in order to keep people from paying more or less than appropriate based on customer ?scare tactics?. To make a long story longer, I would handle a claim the same way regardless of whether the frame was modified.

****

Robert, my ?heavy bumpers and gas tank skids? are made from 3/16? steel. They would likely have the same or similar effect yours would. The best looking ?light? bumper I?ve seen is Ron?s, but I don?t know anyone running it, except Ron (yeah Ron, I know you made it, I think it's pretty nice BTW).

I didn?t touch your ?discussion? because it wasn?t relevant to what I took from Stu?s question, or what I was providing in my answer. My post was made, limited by the question that was posed as I understood it. I didn?t read into it to think Stu was asking how his lift, tires, gas tank skid, or how anything else would handle a rear end collision. I was only replying based on the frame modification. We could come up with endless scenarios of what will affect the integrity of a vehicle, but I won?t respond because it would be tedious.

My TJ is not a daily driver, and I don?t make mods to it based on it being a daily driver. I make them based on ?performance? for what I?m going to do off road. If you want me to participate in a specific discussion of mods and ?viability?, post a question about what you want. I didn?t read your previous post as a question for which you were hoping I would provide feedback. Also, I hope knowing my TJ isn?t a daily driver will help you understand that the heavy stuff I?ve added has very little to do with crash viability in decision making process.

****

I?m not going to continue to ?debate? because people don?t like my opinion, or don?t think I should have the opportunity to express my opinion. That?s what I?m getting from you Robert, and Jeff, so don?t expect me to continue to reply to your posts.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Ace!
**

I?m not going to continue to ?debate? because people don?t like my opinion, or don?t think I should have the opportunity to express my opinion. That?s what I?m getting from you Robert, and Jeff, so don?t expect me to continue to reply to your posts.

If you would like some help with that, I can fix it for you.

[TJRON]

Originally posted by Jeff Weston


Do you view the shock relocator kit mentioned on JU as a better solution or merely a viable solution for those who don't wish to cut their frame? Like Ron said in that post, it doesn't seem to help the shock length.
Thanks!

Marley28 has one of those kits. He took some measurements for me. We both have similar lifts. I have RE axle brackets that mount the shock behind the control arm a bit and move it up a ways. I also rigged my bar pin eliminator to ride on top of the nuts welded to the frame (BTW, a real PIA).
It appears his measurements are about the same as mine, so I would say they are about the same as using the stock mounting points. I would like to run a shock that compresses more but I think I'll go for that kit. $75, what can you lose?
I'm hoping they aren't showing their kit with that cheasy POS shock for some sneaky reason.

[Jeff Weston]

Originally posted by Ace!
[BI?m not going to continue to ?debate? because people don?t like my opinion, or don?t think I should have the opportunity to express my opinion. That?s what I?m getting from you Robert, and Jeff, so don?t expect me to continue to reply to your posts. [/B]

Ace,

From my perspective, it was not a "debate". We're all gonna' do what were comfortable with and just because somebody speculates what will happen in a crash isn't going to change a lot of minds. You stated your opinion based on your experience as an adjuster and your professed knowledge on frame design (at least you implied taking an I-car course and ASE test).

Simply, I wanted to know if you'd deny the claim due to this mod. I don't know any other adjusters to ask this question to. If you didn't use your profession to support your argument against this mod I would have had nothing to ask you. I merely asked your opinion on insurance claims. You've made your view of this mod clear. Thank you for answering on the claim issue.

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by Ace!
[BMy TJ is not a daily driver, and I don?t make mods to it based on it being a daily driver. I make them based on ?performance? for what I?m going to do off road. [/B]

You make absolutely no sense then - there are many of us here whos Jeeps are no longer daily drivers, yet you saw fit to voice a concern on the viability of this mod that would be of more importance to a daily driver. Hit and run is right. Whatever.

[TJRON]

Originally posted by TJRON
Marley28 has one of those kits. He took some measurements for me. We both have similar lifts. I have RE axle brackets that mount the shock behind the control arm a bit and move it up a ways. I also rigged my bar pin eliminator to ride on top of the nuts welded to the frame (BTW, a real PIA).
It appears his measurements are about the same as mine, so I would say they are about the same as using the stock mounting points. I would like to run a shock that compresses more but I think I'll go for that kit. $75, what can you lose?
I'm hoping they aren't showing their kit with that cheasy POS shock for some sneaky reason.

Could some one with the Blaine mod and a close to 5 inch suspension lift take a measurment of the shock length with the Jeep just sitting and approx spring perch to perch length?
Thanks a bunch,
Ron

BTW, this petty bickering reminds of JU, except it's no fun here.

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by TJRON
it's no fun here.

Why not? We hold all the cards