VAN >> Continued Woes with TJ Braking & Steering System >> Need Help

[DC]

Van,

It looks like I am going to have to give up on the Howe TC 1500 PSI steering pump. Even with the high capacity PSC SR112 reservoir in conjunction with the high flow version Hydroboost unit, along with the elimination of three of four 90 degree Fragola fittings ... the Howe TC-1500 pump continues to whine excessively above 2000 RPM (and this has happened with two different Howe TC-1500 pumps). And I know that entrapped air is not the issue, as I have become an ace at bleeding the system (after having gone through two Howe TC-1300 pumps, two Howe TC-1500 pumps, a Howe reservoir, two PSC reservoirs, and two Hydroboost units).

The good news is that the steering performance of the Lee 808 steering box and braking performance of the high-flow Hydroboost unit are both great at this point, but the bad news is that the pump whining issue has got to go, based on the fact that from inside the cab of my TJ, it sounds like I have a old style police siren under the hood once I exceed 2000 RPM.

Here is my question for you. Will the new steering pump that you have been working with Tom on at PSC, be able to handle both the flow and pressure needs for my system (and without whining)? Here again is what I have in my 2000 TJ:

- Vanco high flow Hydroboost unit
- Lee 808 steering box
- Currie power steering fluid cooler
- PSC SR112 reservoir (with hydroboost port)

I am about at my wits end, as well as the bottom of my pocketbook on all of this (which has been going on since March), so I would appreciate it if you can please comment on the new PSC steering pump for my application.

Thanks,
Don

[Robert J. Yates]

My Tommy Lee pump whines pretty good and is quite noticable on the freeway @ 70mph. I just turn up the stereo

Seriously Don - I don't think you can get performance without a little sacrifice.

[DC]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
My Tommy Lee pump whines pretty good and is quite noticable on the freeway @ 70mph. I just turn up the stereo

Seriously Don - I don't think you can get performance without a little sacrifice.

Robert,

While I certainly don't pass myself off as an automotive expert, I have nevertheless been dealing with modifying or otherwise improving the performance of a number of different vehicles for 40 years, which have included "muscle cars", sports cars, and offroad vehicles. I am quite well aware that going down the road of gaining extra performance can often lead to louder engine and exhaust noise, stiffer suspension/ride effects, and the like. Based on this, I do not believe that I am reacting to this latest issue from a novice or pristine perspective.

Other than your input, I have been told by others that their similar higher-performance power steering pumps do not whine or add any appreciable noise over a stock pump. Moreover, in talking with some of the manufacturers of such pumps, they indicate that whining is generally not a desirable condition, and that entrapped air or restrictive fluid flow back to the pump are typically the culprits behind excessive whining, and as such, need to be addressed.

In my case, I have not spared any expense or amount of effort over the last 4+ months in trying to gain the desired level of performance from both improved steering and braking in my TJ (which was mostly driven by my going from 33" to 35" tires). After initially going with two underpressured Howe TC 1300 PSI pumps, a Howe reservoir that had no hydroboost port, and a "standard flow" (versus high flow) hydroboost unit, I was unable to gain the full performance potential for either the Lee steering or Vanco hydroboost braking systems. After moving up to the Howe TC 1500 PSI pumps and a larger capacity PSC reservoir, I was able to finally obtain the advertised performance out of the aftermarket steering and braking systems, which was of course a desired end point from a performance perspective. However, whining at 2000 RPM, increasing to a VERY loud level at 3000 RPM and above, continued to plague the new set-up.

Other than your experience with your Lee power steering pump, at no point, has anyone else indicated to me that excessive aftermarket pump whining should be expected, or in fact tolerated without getting to the bottom of what is causing the whining. This is why I was asking Van what experience he and Tom Allen have had with the PSC pump that Van is apparently now recomending for a combination hydroboost/steering system in a TJ.

After the excessive amount of money I have thrown at this situation, as well as the installation and vehicle downtime that have been involved in this effort, I would personally like to get to the point of gaining the performance AND not having my power steering pump sound like a runaway turbine. Perhaps I have been overly influenced by those end users and manufacturers that claim that aftermarket power steering pump whining is not normal ... such that my experience (and yours) is in fact more the norm.

In the meantime, if I can get some input from Van as to his vantage on the recommended pump from PSC (as a function of less whining than I am currently experiencing), I am willing to give that a try as a final attempt to reduce the excessive whining while still maintaining the braking and steering performance gains. If this turns out to be an impossible combination or expectation on my part, then at least I know that I gave it my best shot.

Don

[mrblaine]

Don, it's not impossible, nor impractical to expect a noise free pump at any RPM. Mine is silent and has been after about the first two trips out with it.

The only differences that I can think of at this point is that my return line out of the steering gear may be -8 and I'm 99 percent certain that my feed line to the pump from the reservoir is -10.

I'll double check tomorrow and see what gives. At this point I'm as frustrated as you have to be.

This is one of those times where I really need to be able to see what you have under the hood with my own eyes.

Taking any trips to SoCal soon?

[DC]

Originally posted by mrblaine
Don, it's not impossible, nor impractical to expect a noise free pump at any RPM. Mine is silent and has been after about the first two trips out with it.

The only differences that I can think of at this point is that my return line out of the steering gear may be -8 and I'm 99 percent certain that my feed line to the pump from the reservoir is -10.

I'll double check tomorrow and see what gives. At this point I'm as frustrated as you have to be.

This is one of those times where I really need to be able to see what you have under the hood with my own eyes.

Taking any trips to SoCal soon?

Blaine,

In terms of the low pressure lines and fitting sizes for my steering & brake systems, I have a short -10 line feeding the Howe TC-1500 pump from the high-capacity PSC SR112 reservoir, a -6 line going from the high-flow hydroboost return to the -6 hydroboost fitting on the side of the reservoir, a -6 line going from the Lee 808 steering box up to the input of the Currie cooler, and a -8 line going from the output of the Currie cooler to the -8 return fitting on the bottom of the PSC reservoir. These are all high-quality Weatherhead lines with no sharp turns or kinks. The fittings are high-quality Fragola (Aeroquip type), thin-walled aluminum flare and push-lock hose barb fittings equipped with SS hose clamps. The new PSC reservoir holds almost two quarts of BG synthethic power steering fluid and it is elevated to the max in the engine compartment, thereby providing the best hydrostatic pressure head/gravity flow to the TC pump that can be achieved IMO. I have also looked straight into the top of the reservoir with the cap off during operation (even at 3500 RPM), and return flow to the reservoir is spot on (with no overall level decrease) ... so fluid starvation to the pump cannot be the souce of the excessive whining. Finally, I corrected the previous input and output leaks in the Currie cooler by installing new fittings (so no air is potentially getting into the system from that route).

I have honestly thought about a trip to SoCal, but I've got a bunch of business travel coming up to the midwest and east, so I don't know when that could realistically happen. In the meantime, I could take some additional digital pics and send those to you, but I don't believe they will be all that different looking from the prior ones I previously sent you.

Anyway, if you come up with any further ideas or suggestions, please let me know. Beyond that, I would still like to hear from Van as to what he and Tom Allen have come up with in terms of the PSC pump.

Thanks,
Don

[VancoPBS]

Damn I was hoping for different news Don. You've been through hell and back with that system. Wish you would have called, seems I missed this post.

I am not going to answer you at this time though. True I've had 0 problems with PSC pumps. Also true Howe is really good and I can't see why his pumps aren't working. So I am going to research this more and give you a more personalized/looked into answer.

[VancoPBS]

Don,
My name is Kelvin with PSC Motorsports. Using Vans login to possibly help you out. How long is the line that goes from the remote reservoir to the pump? It needs to be 16 inches or less.
The longer the line the harder it is for the pump to pull fluid through it. Which works the pump harder and causes a groaning noise. That is if the pump is not damaged already If you need the pump repaired you can send it in and for 80 dollars we will fix it.

Hope this helps
Kelvin Jackson

[DC]

Originally posted by VancoPBS
Damn I was hoping for different news Don. You've been through hell and back with that system. Wish you would have called, seems I missed this post.

I am not going to answer you at this time though. True I've had 0 problems with PSC pumps. Also true Howe is really good and I can't see why his pumps aren't working. So I am going to research this more and give you a more personalized/looked into answer.

Thanks for the interim response Van. At least half of the equation has been solved with good working brakes and steering. It's now just a case of trying to get to the bottom of the Howe TC-1500 pump whining.

I am leaving on a 3-day business trip and will be back Friday evening, so maybe we can talk sometime next week.

Don

[DC]

Originally posted by VancoPBS
Don,
My name is Kelvin with PSC Motorsports. Using Vans login to possibly help you out. How long is the line that goes from the remote reservoir to the pump? It needs to be 16 inches or less.
The longer the line the harder it is for the pump to pull fluid through it. Which works the pump harder and causes a groaning noise. That is if the pump is not damaged already If you need the pump repaired you can send it in and for 80 dollars we will fix it.

Hope this helps
Kelvin Jackson

Kevin,

Thanks for your message. I have been dealing quite a bit with Tom, and have two of your reservoirs. The -10 line from the lower side of the PSC SR112 reservoir supplying the power steering pump is approximately 6" long. Additionally, the reservoir is mounted as high as it possibly can be in the engine compartment. Despite the whining, I do not believe either of my Howe TC 1500 PSI pumps are damaged, as one was a new unit, and the other one was just inspected and rebuilt by Howe. Both of these pumps have been installed, and both whine identically (loud at 2000 RPM and screaming loud at 3000 RPM and higher). Also, this is not a growl or groaning sound ... it is a high-pitched whine, almost like an old style police siren sound. And I go through a kamikaze bleeding procedure, so I know there is no air in the system.

The only thing I am left with at this point is to consider going with a different power steering pump, because essentially every other element in my combined steering and hydroboost braking system has been changed or swapped out.

Don

[blkTJ]

Originally posted by mrblaine


This is one of those times where I really need to be able to see what you have under the hood with my own eyes.

this is so true. When I was having issues awhile back a simple once over by Blaine eliminated possible problems and identified the true culprit. I would highly suggest a trip to SoCal, or Texas, or to someone else you trust.

good luck.

Brian.

[Jeff Weston]

Originally posted by blkTJ
this is so true. When I was having issues awhile back a simple once over by Blaine eliminated possible problems and identified the true culprit. I would highly suggest a trip to SoCal, or Texas, or to someone else you trust.

What was the culprit? I should be installing my Lee box and Howe pump shortly and would like to avoid any mistakes that others have encountered. My install is simplified that I am not adding a ram or hydroboost at this time.

Brian, I can't remember, but did you have to bleed the ram ports when you installed your box? Looking at the schematic on Howe's site, it appears to be a straightforward install.

[VancoPBS]

Don, Call me 800-256-6295.

[blkTJ]

Originally posted by Jeff Weston
What was the culprit? I should be installing my Lee box and Howe pump shortly and would like to avoid any mistakes that others have encountered. My install is simplified that I am not adding a ram or hydroboost at this time.

Brian, I can't remember, but did you have to bleed the ram ports when you installed your box? Looking at the schematic on Howe's site, it appears to be a straightforward install.

mine was a faulty box(not Lee). got it replaced and all is fine.

[Paradiddle]

Originally posted by Jeff Weston
What was the culprit? I

Non-stock T-Case
Black
Too much wax
Manual transmission
ABS removed
etc.
etc.

[blkTJ]

Originally posted by Paradiddle
Non-stock T-Case
Black
Too much wax
Manual transmission
ABS removed
etc.
etc.

hey now...

[Paradiddle]

Originally posted by blkTJ
hey now...

Just funnin you!