Do you trust welds?

[mrblaine]

I see a fair bit of concern from people over whether or not to trust welds in critical situations.

My question is whether or not you would risk injury or death in situations where it is only a weld making the difference?

On nearly every rig that wheels or travels down the highway and especially those with aftermarket axle housings, there are a pair of welds that will most certainly cause some sort of catastrophe in the event of their failure. Not only that, but they are operating in the worst of conditions as far as welds go.

The stresses are highly dynamic, the loads vary from torsional, to shear, to straight pull all at the same time and the leverage against the weld is tremendous.

One of these welds has to resist the force of 200 plus pounds smacking into stuff at 60 mph and leveraged against it.

Would you trust your family to this weld?

btw-very often it is just a butt weld with not much special about it. Personally, I have never heard of one failing and there are hundreds of thousands of them out there. Generally, there are four of them on a rig, all with the same potential for catastrophe.

[William]

Motor mount welds?

[mrblaine]

Not motor mount welds. The welds that hold the inner knuckle "C" to the end of the axle tube.

On Ford 9's the housing ends are butt welded on as are most aftermarket inner knuckles.

If you are fearful of welds, maybe you should ride a horse as most cars, trains, big boats, trucks, and most other ground transportation is welded together at critical locations with nary a bolt in sight. That would also include motorcycles, bicycles, and golf carts.

[John]

Who's not trusting welds? Now, if I had to trust my own welding

[Robert J. Yates]

http://jeepsunlimited.com/forums/sho...hreadid=285890

enjoy

[TObject]

I don't know much about welding.

I know a lot about soldering, so I'll use that as an example: If it is done the right way I trust it. But sloppy soldering is no good. Bad soldering job often causes problems in electronic equipment.

[Art Welch]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
http://jeepsunlimited.com/forums/sho...hreadid=285890

enjoy

Geez. I have seen some crappy welds, but given:

1. Good equipment (Stick, MIG, TIG - don't care).
2. Competent welder.
3. Proper procedures in prep, welding, and cooling.

I trust a weld as much if not more than the original material.

[PK99TJ]

I'd say that I'm far more concened about welds and bolts that go unexamined before/after wheeling and/or yanking on them.

[William]

Here's a funny side note: and I have people to verify this.

I've seen some people weld nerf bars to thier frame. These are supposed to be strong enough to take a hit, etc.

My tomken rock rails (essentially a nerf bar, I guess) were bolted to the frame. For those that don't know, the tomkens bolt through, into and around the frame. (6 bolts total.)

Now the same person (to remain nameless) with those welded nerf bars had the nerf bars cut off the frame when he upgraded to rocker mounted rocker protection.

Here's a point.

He made no mention of his frame bieng bent, nor the welds giving way. ( And he claims to wheel very hard, a fact to which I attribute no doubt, as he's a widely accepted person on several boards. )

On my jeep, there are two visible spots where the frame had been pulled out and away from it's normal spot.

So, is bolting something to the frame the onlyanswer? I don't think so. In this case, it would show that perhaps welding was a preferable way of being set up... But it' boils down to the quality of the posistion selected, the work done, and the quality of the materials used.

Edit: I haven't been to JU in a while: its funny how things look now. There's a lot of a lack of a clue going on over there. Makes you wonder sometimes.

[Dan-H]

Blaine,

do the axle tubes slide into the knuckle before it is welded?

But, to answer the question, yes I trust welds until they fail. Then they get welded up again and I trust them again

what other choice is there? gum and crazy glue ?

- Dan

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Dan-H
Blaine,

do the axle tubes slide into the knuckle before it is welded?

But, to answer the question, yes I trust welds until they fail. Then they get welded up again and I trust them again

what other choice is there? gum and crazy glue ?

- Dan

There are several versions of front and rear axles where the tube is just butt welded to the inner knuckle or housing end.

There are some sprint car rear spindles that are machined at an angle to let the rear tires have built in camber for circle track racing.

I do know that if I have screwed up Garry's front axle, the yokes will be cut off, the sleeves removed and the yokes butt welded on like they do all front 9" housings.

[Jerry Bransford]

Originally posted by William
Here's a funny side note: and I have people to verify this.

I've seen some people weld nerf bars to thier frame. These are supposed to be strong enough to take a hit, etc.

My tomken rock rails (essentially a nerf bar, I guess) were bolted to the frame. For those that don't know, the tomkens bolt through, into and around the frame. (6 bolts total.)

Now the same person (to remain nameless) with those welded nerf bars had the nerf bars cut off the frame when he upgraded to rocker mounted rocker protection.

Here's a point.

He made no mention of his frame bieng bent, nor the welds giving way. ( And he claims to wheel very hard, a fact to which I attribute no doubt, as he's a widely accepted person on several boards. )

On my jeep, there are two visible spots where the frame had been pulled out and away from it's normal spot.

So, is bolting something to the frame the onlyanswer? I don't think so. In this case, it would show that perhaps welding was a preferable way of being set up... But it' boils down to the quality of the posistion selected, the work done, and the quality of the materials used.

Edit: I haven't been to JU in a while: its funny how things look now. There's a lot of a lack of a clue going on over there. Makes you wonder sometimes.

There's a big difference in butt-welding a D-ring bracket to the front of a bumper and welding a nerf-bar to a frame William. I'm obviously the nameless guy you're attempting to ridicule here. I'd ask why you are but that's unimportant to me. I'm just one that feels strongly it's not a good idea to weld a D-ring to the front of a bumper. And what does the fact I recommended welding nerfbars to the frame have to do with the fact I'm recommending against welding D-rings to the front of a bumper? Not a fawking thing.... And is anyone actually daring to say there's no difference between using a self-tapping bolt to hold a nerf-bar to a frame and using Grade 5 or Grade 8 bolts to hold a tow-hook or D-ring to a frame?

Robert mentioned the fact that the bolts that hold tow-hooks aren't through-bolted, they're threaded down into sleeves that are welded. Yes of course they're welded in place. Duh. But they're also welded into the interior of the frame channel so they're stronger, and not external to it like was done that guy who welded his D-ring to his front bumper. Also, the two threaded sleeves are holding the two tow-hook bolts in shear so a nut and washer at the bottom wouldn't make a hill of beans difference.

So ridicule and say what you guys want, but there are some applications where welding makes sense and some applications where it doesn't. I don't see any of you welding your tow-hooks to your bumpers... is anyone??? I seem to recall at least a few of you making pointed remarks about how welding tow-hooks is a bad idea... but welding D-rings to a bumper is not?

Blaine, I don't think saying a wire-rope could break before the weld would helps either (or you did say something like that, maybe you editted that remark out while I was writing this?). Who's to say that would or wouldn't happen? Who's going to say a welded on D-ring doesn't have a welding flaw like the weld penetration was too deep or not deep enough. And we're not talking about an axle that is going to fly back through a windshield if a weld breaks either, are we? Or maybe attaching a 20,000 lb rated snatch-snap to a welded D-ring and doing the old running start to snatch-jerk someone out of a really bad situation? At least with rated bolts, you have a certain measure of known strength you know is there when you're yanking against them in a dangerous situation.

To lump all welding applcations together and poke fun at (ridicule is more the word !!) those who recommend against welding in SOME applications is not right. This place may be "friendlier" than most boards but there's also some real biting remarks said that are against statements often either taken out of context or meant to ridicule a personal opinion that isn't a totally unreasonable one to have.

I would have thought that as astute as several of you are about fastening items together in high-stress applications, that you would understand that you can't lump all fastening jobs together... some are best bolted, some are best welded... and not all jobs are best done any particular method.

I notice this place gets prone to ridicule once in a while. It doesn't suit you guys, that is for sure. And thinly disguised biting references to people is beneath one or two of you... or at least usually beneath you. I remember a new offroader who was grateful for a warm welcome at one time... now I note a lot of bitterness and too many biting remarks. I don't understand why, either.

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by William
So, is bolting something to the frame the onlyanswer? I don't think so. In this case, it would show that perhaps welding was a preferable way of being set up... But it' boils down to the quality of the posistion selected, the work done, and the quality of the materials used.

Wanna see something really interesting sometime? Check out the Bullettproof rock rails. They through bolt their rails using 12 bolts per side. Thats 24 holes you have just drilled into your frame

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by Jerry Bransford


Robert mentioned the fact that the bolts that hold tow-hooks aren't through-bolted, they're threaded down into sleeves that are welded. Yes of course they're welded in place. Duh. But they're also welded into the interior of the frame channel so they're stronger, and not external to it like was done that guy who welded his D-ring to his front bumper. Also, the two threaded sleeves are holding the two tow-hook bolts in shear so a nut and washer at the bottom wouldn't make a hill of beans difference.


I notice this place gets prone to ridicule once in a while. It doesn't suit you guys, that is for sure. And thinly disguised biting references to people is beneath a few of you... or at least usually beneath you. I remember a new offroader who was grateful for a warm welcome at one time... now I note a lot of bitterness and too many biting remarks. I don't understand why, either.

Jerry, I think you need to re-read my last paragraph wherein I was essentially agreeing with you but using a differnet rational.

People using Jeep bumpers to yank stuff with is crazy - the crossmembers are not designed for it. I used the example of the tow hooks to get some of those morons to actually think about what they were saying. Welding in of itself is not bad. It is as you say, dependent upon conditions. The tow hooks and the way that they are setup are the right way to do it. That is also why I pointed out the welds on the control arm brackets. Yes the brackets are thin stamped stuff, but they were engineered for that particular job.

Hanging a Bulletproof or Warn bumper off your Jeep and then using it as a yank point with either bolted or welded d-rings is plain stupid. The manner of attachment is not really the point - I guess I could have been more clear about that.

As to what goes on over here - I am staying out of that one. If you have abeef with somebody, Pm them and deal with it.

[Jerry Bransford]

Oops, my apologies to Blaine who did not present the idea that our steel winch cables would "most likely snap before the welds will break"... that was Robert who said that in the JU thread he found "hilarious".

[mrblaine]

Okay Jerry, get your panties unbunched for a second and look at a few things.

First off, the situations where you will be pulling on a welded or bolted attachment point are miniscule percentage wise to the number of times and hours you will be placing your life on the line in regards to the integrity of welds.

My point in this whole matter is that sometimes we focus on one aspect of something and forget to take into account the absurdity of discounting something when there are fifty other identical instances just as bad or worse that we don't discount.

Case in point is BP's d-ring attachment system. They make a big deal about it going through the tubing and being welded at the backside. Unfortunately they do not make the same provision for the butt welded brackets that mount the entire bumper to the frame.

If their attachment system is so superior for one instance, why then is it not used for both instances?

Now, go back and re-read what I said and quote me the reference I made to steel winch line breaking. Wasn't I.

Another instance of this disparity I see in people being worried about stuff without taking everything into account is wheel studs. How many realize that behind those 5 studs is only three bolts holding in the unit bearing?

If I told most people to run three studs on their rims, they would look at me a little funny.

I grow weary of people blasting one thing, and then appear perfectly content to hop into a rig that has many major components welded together and not that well at that.

A good example of that is the front coil and shock bucket. Take a look at it sometime. There is around a thousand lbs. of static load and that multiplies tremendously when you figure in the load exerted when you bottom out the bumpstops.

All that and that bucket is only welded across the bottom of that formed sheetmetal. The weld is several inches long and about 1/8" wide. How does it feel to trust your life to that?

We do agree on one thing. I wouldn't let just anyone weld my d-rings on.

Just for curiosity's sake, on a commercial aluminum car hauler, what would you guess is the minimum wire size used on the d-rings themselves?

edit-apology accepted Jerry

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by mrblaine
only three bolts holding in the unit bearing?

And only 13mm at that

Jerry, Blaines' point elegantly reflects why that thread over there was described by me as hilarious, as is most of what qualifies as tech over there these days. Just today they have a guy over there asking if wipers are a warranty item Some of these people shouldn't own Jeeps because they don't want to go through the fundementals of learning what it takes to repair them and operate them in an extreme situation. They have no justification behind their opinions other than what they heard from somebody else.

That aside, how about if we switch the the discussion from the front end to the rear crossmember. How many of those JU yo yo's arguing over at JU are running around with that cute little Warn d-ring hanging off a non-rated bumper hitch which is attached to what could be described as cheesy at best - rear crossmember? I am not dissing the crossmember as it is elegantly designed but not for that job. I have seen more than a few "tweaked" rear bumpers and crossmembers which really makes me wonder.

[Jerry Bransford]

Originally posted by mrblaine
I grow weary of people blasting one thing, and then appear perfectly content to hop into a rig that has many major components welded together and not that well at that.

Again Blaine, it's all about the specific application, not welding in general. I have no fear or qualms about the welds holding my control arms, axles, bumpers, etc. Hell, I want to learn how to weld myself... at least far better than the few splatter-jobs I have done. I have a lot of welding I'd love to do if I were able to do them well enough.

Would you not feel a bit queasy if you were asked to winch someone out from a deep-steep ravine and noticed he only had a welded-on D-ring to connect your hook to? No matter what it was welded to? If you don't think you'd think twice about connecting your winch hook to his welded on D-ring, I'd be very surprised. You can't just look at a weld and know if it's going to hang on under a severe load. I at least have a good idea a couple of Grade 5 or Grade 8 bolts will.

[William]

Originally posted by Jerry Bransford
[B]There's a big difference in butt-welding a D-ring bracket to the front of a bumper and welding a nerf-bar to a frame William. I'm obviously the nameless guy you're attempting to ridicule here.

Uh, yes I was refering to you, but not attempting to ridicule you Jerry.


[QUOTE]And what does the fact I recommended welding nerfbars to the frame have to do with the fact I'm recommending against welding D-rings to the front of a bumper?

Nothing, and I never said it did if you read my post. What I was saying is that welding to the frame and bolting to the frame for the same application can have seriously different results. Your frame came away scott free, and mine came away bent. Just something to note as info for people when they think of this.

No one here, or at least not many hear know that you had nerf bars welded to your frame. I was using you as an example, but, trying to keep you out of it.

And is anyone actually daring to say there's no difference between using a self-tapping bolt to hold a nerf-bar to a frame and using Grade 5 or Grade 8 bolts to hold a tow-hook or D-ring to a frame?

No one was.

So ridicule and say what you guys want, but there are some applications where welding makes sense and some applications where it doesn't.

Which is exactly what my point was Jerry. Where welding isn't preferable in the case you pointed out, in the case of the rock rails, welding was. You have some welds left over, I've got a bent frame. If your upset about that...

I remember a new offroader who was grateful for a warm welcome at one time... now I note a lot of bitterness and too many biting remarks. I don't understand why, either

Where are the biting remarks Jerry? I think you misread what I pointed out to a big extent. Read it again.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Jerry Bransford


Again Blaine, it's all about the specific application, not welding in general. I have no fear or qualms about the welds holding my control arms, axles, bumpers, etc. Hell, I want to learn how to weld myself... at least far better than the few splatter-jobs I have done. I have a lot of welding I'd love to do if I were able to do them well enough.

Would you not feel a bit queasy if you were asked to winch someone out from a deep-steep ravine and noticed he only had a welded-on D-ring to connect your hook to? No matter what it was welded to? If you don't think you'd think twice about connecting your winch hook to his welded on D-ring, I'd be very surprised. You can't just look at a weld and know if it's going to hang on under a severe load. I at least have a good idea a couple of Grade 5 or Grade 8 bolts will.

I would guess that the difference is that I have welded about a truckload of stuff and never had any of it break. I have welded frames back together, cut them, moved them up, moved them down and it's just never been an issue. I would have no problem hooking onto that set of d-rings on that rig on JU. I use the same d-rings to hold my jeep onto my trailer.

Given that my rope doesn't stretch and produce any launched chunks of metal, I would be even less concerned about it. My concern is so minimal that I even had weld recovery points on a few of the bumpers I have built and I will guarantee that the bumper will rip off of the vehicle before the recovery points failed.

The biggest concern that I saw few address is the inability of the d-ring to pivot to follow the direction of pull. IIRC from my sling statistics, you have to reduce the load to 30 percent of rated WLL if the angle is greater than 45 degrees.

Get yourself a front rectangular tube bumper if you don't have one and I will put a set of welded recovery points on them for you. After you see them, you won't have any qualms about my welded attachment points either. They also pivot to follow the direction of pull.

[mudpup]

back to the question if I trust welds or not...if I know who did it then yes. For instance I did all the welding on my SOA conversion (basically welding spring perches and axle wrap bar) and this was my first big job welding so I wasn't too sure about how it would hold up. So after some street driving I took it to a local trail and hit the first 2' ledge in 2nd gear about 4krpms, then hit it in 3rd gear. I had several people I trust tell me my welds were good but I still wanted to test them out and they held up. So now I know I can trust my welds.

As for the welded d-ring I would have no problem winching by one.

[Tumbleweed]

I trust mine!
Over 25 years ago, I had to weld 2 tow hooks(3/8 chain hook) to a 3/8 chain. I did not see how it could hold up to the loads we put on it. My welding mentor helped me test it to prove it to myself. Controlled environment, done remotely.
The hooks were rated at 20K, the chain was rated at 19K. We hooked one end to a huge overhead crane hoist and the other to our dynamoter(scale) and then to a known weighted block of concrete. The chain links started to reform into long-oval shaped links at around 23K, and we quit at that point-proved it to me!
BTW, this was arc welded with 6011 rod.

Proper welding and fabrication can be extremely strong. Done half-assed, it can be a dangerous nightmare.

[Blue Rat]

Do I trust welds? Yes!
Implicitly? Of course not!

My 16,000HP, 368,250lb US Navy Hovercraft has padeyes welded on it for towing. In the engineering for this particular application I would guarantee that through bolting was not ever discussed. Another small example of weld integrity might be the hulls of our nuclear submarine force. Not a bolt one is holding those plates of HY-80 together.

Now with that said does it mean that just because a particular item is welded that it is better fabricated? Not a chance. There are a lot more factors to consider; thickness of the base materials, compatability of base materials, joint design, filler material, weld process, operating environment, shear and tensile forces, and of course... welder qualification.

I'm sure that there are a lot of welders out there that could weld together the crack of dawn with a hearing aid battery and a nickel. But unless all those other factors are considered...

Will a properly designed and welded d-ring be suitable for pulling a Jeep up Mount Everest? You bet. How about a properly engineered and bolted d-ring? You bet again.

[Scott Hill]

Well last time I checked we put our lives in trust of welds every day.

the last high rise I saw being built was bolted and welded.

on failures of structures and vehicles the steel fails before a proper weld.


Scott

[ZUK]

geeeez Mrblaine...a professional race shop here in Chandler did something that would scare some....they widened my existing front dana44 axle housing by basically cutting the knuckles at the weld .....cleaned/removed the piece that was pressed inside the knuckle...pressed in another piece of short tubing that was effectively 2.3" longer than the original and run 2 welds per side (instead of replacing the entire tubes). Hope they did a good job.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by ZUK
geeeez Mrblaine...a professional race shop here in Chandler did something that would scare some....they widened my existing front dana44 axle housing by basically cutting the knuckles at the weld .....cleaned/removed the piece that was pressed inside the knuckle...pressed in another piece of short tubing that was effectively 2.3" longer than the original and run 2 welds per side (instead of replacing the entire tubes). Hope they did a good job.

I hope they did a good job too.

[Steve Graff]

Do I trust wellds?
I have been welding for about 2 years. when I baught my jeep one of the first things I baught was a miller matic 135. I taught my self how to weld then I started welding on my jeep. One of the first things I welded was my roll cage , I ended up testing it two weeks later. I ended up rolling it backwards end over end. the roll cage held up good. Among the other things I welded are a shackle revese kit , spring over, side rock bars , all of my front end steering , motor mounts , cross member ,and too many to list including all of jay mess and some of robert yates jeep. I've never had a problem with welding and I would rather weld than drill holes and install bolts any day . As long as you have some one who knows how to weld then every thing will be ok. I had some one teld me that one inch of weld should hold one thousand pounds. So good luck on what you weld and hopefully every thing go's good.

[Brad Kilby]

I'm just curious if Jerry would let me tow him out of that deep-steep ravine with my front bumper.

http://www.kilbyenterprises.com/misc...s/P9051120.jpg

[William]

Originally posted by Brad Kilby
I'm just curious if Jerry would let me tow him out of that deep-steep ravine with my front bumper.

http://www.kilbyenterprises.com/misc...s/P9051120.jpg

I dunno Brad,

I would hesitate for one reason..

Putting my head anywhere near those airhorns you have sticking out of the fender!!!!

It must be impossible to resist the urge to lay on that horn once and a while!!!

[Brad Kilby]

Truth be known, they aren't hooked up yet and they've only been there over a year. I've got them plumed into the air system, just don't have the switched hooked up. However, I have the same horns on my Dodge and let me tell ya, they're loud!