Rant...trash on the trail

[bob91yj]

I was out at Gordon's Well (Imperial Sand Dunes) this weekend.

Watched a guy reach into a bitchin $50kplus sand car, open a pack of smokes, and throw the wrapper on the ground. Irked me to no end. I interrupted him telling someone how cool his car was, to ask where he was going to run it when the dunes were closed due to PIGS like him.

It was sad to see how trashed the dunes were.

Other than that, it was a great weekend. Ran a couple of great sets Friday afternoon. Almost rolled it down a bowl making a transition Saturday morning, never got "it" back. My driving sucked in the dunes after that. Paddles on the Jeep sure are fun though.

[TObject]

Are you talking about the cigarette pack shrink-wrapping? Come on, it's not really trash.

What's the next thing going to be, you will be upset with people who ash their cigarettes on the ground?

There got to be a limit of what is considered trash and what's not.

Don't get me wrong; trash is bad. But I think I would wait going off on somebody until the guy throws out something a bit larger, maybe an empty cigarette pack, or a beer bottle.

Bob, you need anger management.

[bob91yj]

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

So, in your opinion, what size does the litter have to be before it counts? ever seen the results of a beach clean up...tons...yes TONS of cigarette butts.

I have to assume it wouldn't be a problem for peeps to throw any trash that "doesn't count" in the back of your rig, right, I mean, come on, it's just a cigarette wrapper/butt.

If everyone at the sand drags, and at Test Hill that night had picked up a little of the trash that didn't count, rather than throwing it on the ground, there wouldn't be a problem.

It's a constant battle to keep the Imperial Sand Dunes open. I would hate to see them closed, but this "it doesn't REALLY matter" attitude is going to get them closed for us.

I'm not perfect, but I do make an effort to pack out more trash than I packed in.

[TObject]

There are all sorts of things people leave outdoors. They spit on the ground, for example. I would be very upset if somebody spit inside my jeep. I wouldn't be upset much, if it all, if somebody put a cigarette pack wrapper in the back of my jeep.

Therefore I don't think if something would make me upset put in the back of the jeep is a good method of determining what can be thrown on the ground, and what not.

What's a good method? I'd say, if this is something that decomposes quickly in the soil, then it's ok to leave it. Tin cans ? burn the protective layer off them and burry them. Paper ? burry it. Plastics, this one I am not sure, some plastics decompose quickly, but if it's a bigger piece, take it with you. I'd say plastic bottles should be carried out. Glass ? definitely carry it out.

What's is ok and not ok just throw on the ground and leave? Fags ? ok. Burned matches ? ok. Candy wrappers, not ok for anything larger than Hershey Kisses. Cans or bottles ? not ok., Sunflower seed peels ? ok.

I haven't given much thought to the subject, I am sure this list can be improved.

Also I do not make any allowances for the local laws or regulations. If there is a "pack it in, pack it out" policy, you are obviously supposed to pee in your coffee thermos, and pack a whole bunch of plastic bags to collect the air you exhale.

[Sephiroth]

Originally posted by bob91yj
ever seen the results of a beach clean up...tons...yes TONS of cigarette butts.

No cups?? No Beer cans?? No dirty diapers?? It is always the smoker who pays, its like when they want to raise taxes, its always the cigarette smoker who should be taxed. What about the drinker why not raise tax on booze.

How about all the kids whose parents tell them to just use the ocean when they need to go to the bathroom, and all the dirty diapers left on the beach.

[TObject]

Originally posted by Sephiroth
No dirty diapers??

And why is it always little kids who get blamed for dirty diapers? It's elderly too!

Oh boy, am I looking forward to getting old or what....

[bob91yj]

Annually on the San Diego beaches more cigarette butts are collected than anything else.

This didn't start out as a gig against smokers, but if you guys want to take the brunt, go ahead. By the way, I used to smoke 3 packs a day. Wasn't that much trouble for me to use an ashtray, or trash can to get rid of the butt.

Really surprised to see a BB that's members think it's OK to trash the trails...and we wonder why the eco nazi's are winning. <shaking head, walking away>

[TObject]

Where do the smoking Eco Nazi's ash their cigarettes on the beech?

And then, why is it not ok, to throw butt on the ground, but it is perfectly acceptable to throw it in the trashcan? Just because the butt goes in the trashcan does it automatically make it disappear off the face of the earth and not poison the environment?

[ScottyY2K]

Sergey - I figured you were being facetious (sp?) in your first response. I guess not. I think it is in ALL of our best interest to pack it all out.

IMHO it is pretty gross to go to places that get a lot of use and see the tinfoil tops, cellophane wrappers and butts from cigarettes. Smokers get such a ration of crap because so many just throw their butts and wrappers on the ground. ...

There are some other criteria that I would consider if it were being buried but simply throwing rubbish on the ground (OK ... perhaps sunflower seeds are alright...) is just wrong. To not want to see other peoples trash is not eco-naziism.

Perhaps I have picked up a few too many cigarette butts, beer and soda cans to be objective...

Are you serious when you ask if it is better to put a cigarette butt in the trash versus throwing it on the ground? Surely you jest.

[TObject]

I haven't made my mind yet. I just thought that Bob overreacted about being upset by the wrapper thrower. Maybe I was wrong, I don't know.

I think we all agree that sunflower seed peels are ok to just throw on the ground.

So how do we define the action of trashing?

I think we all agree that trashing trails is not ok. But what trashing is?

Is digging big holes with giant tires considered trashing?

[bob91yj]

Originally posted by TObject
Where do the smoking Eco Nazi's ash their cigarettes on the beech?

Watch the news bro, pretty soon, in SD County, you won't be smoking on the beach anymore, several cities have already instituted a ban.

Then you'll be the one crying about how the F'in politicians screwed you over and violated your rights.

Who's REALLY to blame? The pigs that can't figure it out!

[TObject]

They don't let me drive my jeep on the beech, I am personally more upset about that, than the ban on smoking.

Trahit sua quemque voluptas

[Paradiddle]

My personal opinion is that you should be responsible for your actions. This means pack your trash out - all of it.

I recall a report that said cigarette butts take 25 years to decompose. I'm sure diapers take a long time as well - but the contents don't. Leaving either one on the ground is reprehensible IMO.

Throwing garbage on the ground anywhere is just rude in my opinion. Why do people think it's okay to do this? Stuff it in your pocket and throw it in a can later, it's not that hard. Frankly, I've about had it with rude people. I'm not sure what to do about them as killing them is apparently illegal, but I'll think of something .

Jeff

[Paradiddle]

Originally posted by TObject
They don't let me drive my jeep on the beech, I am personally more upset about that, than the ban on smoking.

Trahit sua quemque voluptas

Pismo.

[Jeff McRae]

Originally posted by TObject
I haven't made my mind yet. I just thought that Bob overreacted about being upset by the wrapper thrower. Maybe I was wrong, I don't know.

I think we all agree that sunflower seed peels are ok to just throw on the ground.

So how do we define the action of trashing?

I think we all agree that trashing trails is not ok. But what trashing is?

Is digging big holes with giant tires considered trashing?

Actually, I think Bob did us all a disservice by UNDER reacting. What he should have done is beat the asshat with a tire iron, and left the bloody mess with the tire iron driven through his heart as an example to others about behavior that is CLOSING recreational areas for future generations. It's the "it's only a (insert minor trash item here) slack attitude by _some_ that is facilitating this.

I expected better than this from a member of this board, evidentally my expectations are set too high.

Bob, you want to react appropriately next time, I'll buy you a new tire iron.

[TObject]

Originally posted by Paradiddle
Pismo.

French Equatorial Guinea.

[TObject]

Originally posted by Jeff McRae
...and left the bloody mess with the tire iron driven through his heart...

But leaving a tire iron on the ground would be considerer littering, wouldn't it?

[Jeff McRae]

Nope, I'll volunteer to pick it up.

[John]

Originally posted by TObject
But leaving a tire iron on the ground would be considerer littering, wouldn't it?

That's comparable to leaving a cigarette pack shrink-wrapping on the ground.

[TObject]

Ummm, I think a tire iron is the item of more substantial stature. But, let's say leaving a tire iron behind is an equivalent of throwing a cigarette pack shrink on the ground. Does it make it ok?

And if Jeff picks up and hauls out garbage off the trail, does it make it ok for somebody else to litter in the first place?

[Sephiroth]

Originally posted by bob91yj
Watch the news bro, pretty soon, in SD County, you won't be smoking on the beach anymore, several cities have already instituted a ban.

Yes they got rid of Howard and now smoking, whats next BOOKS

[BlueJeeper]

Originally posted by TObject

So how do we define the action of trashing?

I think we all agree that trashing trails is not ok. But what trashing is?

Personally, I draw the line around conservation, and not self-elimination (environmentalism). Also economics.

If you can't repair the trail (from the tire spinning and digging) or help clean it up it's trashing.

If you can't throw something on the ground without a wider impact which you can not fix or repair, that's trashing.

Tossing the butt on the ground, to me is trashing. The solid waste can be picked up by conservationist volunteers, but there are toxins left behind in the soil. So, it will probably be too expensive to clean up the soil and the water, so economics tells me that's trashing.

Ok, so the Jeep emits toxic exhaust. My "Trahit sua quemque voluptas" tells me that's okay as long as I consistently support alternative energy policies. My brain says that's a cop out, because then the guy who throws the butt on the ground should be able to keep doing it until someone invents a non-toxic cigarette butt. So that's probably a good idea to support that kind of invention too.

I don't know. Catch-22. If I stop driving my car so I'm not a hypocrite I will probably care less about alternative energy sources and nothing will get done. Maybe it will just get too expensive to drive that gas powered Jeep and economics will decide for me.

Does that do it for ya?



[EDIT] I don't mean to imply that it is okay to throw stuff on the ground just because someone else will come along and pick it up. Just thinking out loud. Throwing stuff on the ground expecting others to pick it up is just rude, which should be reason enough not to toss it there.[/EDIT]

[ScottyY2K]

Originally posted by TObject
I haven't made my mind yet. I just thought that Bob overreacted about being upset by the wrapper thrower. Maybe I was wrong, I don't know.

I think we all agree that sunflower seed peels are ok to just throw on the ground.

So how do we define the action of trashing?

I think we all agree that trashing trails is not ok. But what trashing is?

Is digging big holes with giant tires considered trashing?

Sergey - I have never been to the rec area that bob91yj is talking about. When he says "trashed" I am assuming he is seeing general garbage/refuse littered about like we see in other areas.....usually butts, cans, and bottles are the primary culprits.....but then again I did not ask him so I am assuming.

What I see a lot on the Rubicon, and another reason the smokers get so much blame, is that clean-up crews (and just groups in General) run through and get cans, bottles, big plastic, and bags, but leave the long lasting cigarette butts on the ground. ... Around the little sluice it is at times real bad. This is an area that a lot of people hang-out and drink beer......the are sees way too much trash.

Human waste is another huge issue in a crowded area such as the 'con...several groups I run with have adopted the pick it out policy. I hope this trend catches on...


:::EDIT::: As I read through, on second or third thought, I think that Sergey is just trying to spark some reaction......and I think he succeeded.

[Jeff Weston]

I think Sergey mismanaged his medication levels today. At first, I too though he was being facetious, but I'm not so sure. I don't know about all these tangents this thread has gone on, but I agree that throwing plastic wrappers which will blow around and make a mess was not cool and applaud that Bob had the moxie to try and do something about it. As for tire irons, I try not to litter those either.

[mrblaine]

I'm glad someone brought this up. My post about the sad state of public restrooms and the portables at the last event has altered my personal philosophy on babysitting.

When did it become my responsibility to clean up after those who trash my areas of need or recreation?

Who made it my job to educate the morons who know that they are wrong. We know they are wrong because they don't act like that everywhere. They also know they are wrong.

When and where did I sign up for the job of Litter Police?

I will bet goodly amounts of money that those very same folks will not and do not trash their personal living areas in the same manner as they trash the restrooms I share with them. I will also bet the same can be said for the trails I frequent.

I believe that it has to do with why people go to those areas. You rarely hear anyone say they are running out to the desert to behave perfectly, but you do frequently hear comments to the effect of going there to party, kill stuff, drink while driving, act the fool while driving, discharge weapons and explosive devices, and in general discard the societally accepted restraints on behavior in populated areas.

I ask then, is it location, mindset, people, or what, that allows these behaviors to be prevalent outside of where we normally live our lives?

Why should I confront someone for tossing trash and or cleaning up after them? Are not the rest of the behaviors as out of context in the city as they are accepted out there? If those behaviors are accepted out there and are as abhorrent to me as tossing trash, how then does one define which behavior is worth the confrontation?

I'm confused!!!

[TObject]

Knowing that the Texas Utilities Electric Company Monticello in the Titus County emitted more than 88 thousand tons of sulfur dioxide in the year 2000. Whose heart do you drive the tire iron through first? The cigarette wrapper guy's, or the president's of the aforementioned company?

[BlueJeeper]

Originally posted by mrblaine
They also know they are wrong.

I don't know Blaine. I had a conversation at length with someone about a more general, but similar topic to this, and came to the conclusion that when the machine works too well, people just aren't aware of the wrong.

Kid throws crap on the floor at school. Custodian cleans it up every night. Cleans the bathroom too. Ma does the same at home.

Ma and the custodian put the crap in the can where it "belongs". WM trucks come and pick it up every Tuesday morning, on the dot, without fail.

City needs to do something about the trash, so they pay the WM trucks to take it out of state, to the landfill far away. Works every time. Out of sight, out of mind. Works great.

And on and on with every example you can think of in modern society. Americans have made a big dollar business over the years on masking the layers of complexity with more and more layers. It is so ingrained in our society, I took classes in masking complexity at college. My profession, computer software, depends on it to constantly grow profits.

If you grew up on the farm, you know that the food does not come from the supermarket--it has to go through many layers to get to the supermarket. The kid that grew up in the city doesn't have a damn clue in hell. The layers work so well these days that we don't even want that kid to see the layers beneath him because it is going to cost him time, which is money.

Seems to me that the monopoly on masking complexity has gotten too good for its own good. In some areas we are at the point of diminishing returns, where hiding the layers is actually encouraging behaviour at the top-most level that puts the whole thing to shame.

What do you do about it, I don't know. Strikes me as the only way to solve the problem is to educate, but the information has to be rock solid in logic to communicate all the layers--exactly *why* throwing crap on the ground is bad, not just communicating that it *is* bad. If you can explain exactly *why*, I think it is probably enough to have faith that people will just get it. If they still do it, there is probably not a good enough reason communicated to them *why* not to do it.

That of course is a burden on those who hold the information about all the layers to communicate it effectively to those who do not, but that is leadership for ya. Hopefully there is a buck or two or a smidgen of self-respect along the way.

[cbassett]

Never before my trip to Japan last year had I seen people using pocket ash trays. They are fabric on the outside, and some unburnable aluminized somethingorother (looks like that fire blanket material) on the inside. Is about 2" square.

This was the most common style of pocket ashtray. I can't find it online, but I also saw these:

http://therestlessmouse.zoovy.com/product/803

and these:

http://ws.weddingsolutionssuperstore...3_prod3315.php

Here's a cool one:
http://www.buttsout.net/home

[Darrell C]

Good topic.

I, along with others apparently, thought Sergey's initial comments were facetious. But some good points have been made, and decent questions asked.

Who do you strike with the tire iron first, Sergey? My answer is: both. While it's obvious the impact on the environment between the two extremes you mentioned is not comparable, you cannot IMHO disregard little actions under the context that they are less important.

I'm a firm believer in Pack-it-in, Pack-it-out. My wife and I went camping last weekend in our newly acquired motorhome. While hiking along the river, we came across discarded bottles, paper, etc. We picked up what we could, and tried to leave the area better than we found it.

But Blaine's point is well taken: people should behave on the trail (in the backcountry, etc.) as they would in their own livingroom. The lack of proper behavior is an issue of mindset. Chances are, if you could remove the cigarette wrapper tossing individual from the environment he was in, sit him down in a professional setting, and ask him if tossing that wrapper was correct, odds are he'd say: no. No doubt you'd have some who just wouldn't care, and the conditions of their living environment would be proof of their apathy.

How to correct the masses and instill in them a sense of responsibility? That's a good question. Once it?s figured out, let me know because we can apply it to a variety of areas.

[TObject]

Originally posted by Darrell C

Who do you strike with the tire iron first, Sergey?

Figuratively speaking, I'd strike those who want to close the trails.

Literally, I prefer not to strike anyone, violence is never good.