<sigh>What would you do?

[LeadFoot]

I'm new to the board, and need all of your guys' opinions ALREADY!

TO start off, this is not a TJ-YJ thing, so please, no flames on that. Second, it might be quite long. Cliffnotes at the bottom

Right now I have a '94 YJ 4 banger with the works. Great running engine, NO oil leaks, great compression,etc. No body rust, very well matained. Soft top, hard top, half doors, and full metal doors. 113,000 miles.

Parents went looking for a TJ, which had me thinking. Since I plan on doing the I6 swap, axle swap,etc-I might be about to sell the YJ with everything mentioned, and with a couple extra thousand, go out and get a TJ with the D44 and I6.

The newer tops are like GOLD! We had the dealership (Just to see if he had any brains) and even HE got the top completely down in under 2 mins. I was astonised(sp). That included getting the sides unzipped. My YJ- fight zippers, unbutton top, cuss, kick yell and scream, and repeat for the other side.

I'm not going to lie to you, but I really hate working on things. Maybe I'm alittle too lazy, I don't know. Working on things is just a hassle. Bolts spin, then there rusted together, tools get greasy and you can't grip them, etc. Getting the zippers back on for the top is a feat of Hudini(sp). Granted, going in a certain order makes it go easier, but geez, on a TJ, I laugh. I have never been doorless yet due to the fact that I don't want to fight the Torx bits on the windshield frame. I've read too many horror stories. No thanks, I have enough projects going on at the time. For what extra $$$ I would spend on a TJ, I'm sure it couldn't add up to the labor of a engine/tranny swap (I do not possess the skills or the tools to do the tranny and tc, nor the time), and the same for a real axle. The side benifit is the easier top, and the ride I could care less about.

"Jeeps are built, not bought." I know, I know. I would still lift/lock the Jeep as before, but just different types (TJ instead of a YJ)

Another thing is that the shifting forks are starting to show (Well, not really show, but "feel") wear and tear on them. For a AX-5, it's done quite well. I know the engine can't be running this great forever.
Sorry to type so long.

Cliffnotes: I can sell my YJ, add a couple grand, and get a TJ with the axle and engine and soft top design I like. Keep the YJ, or get a TJ?

Thanks if you read all of this BS and tell me what YOU think.
-John

[Dan-H]

Originally posted by LeadFoot
I'm not going to lie to you, but I really hate working on things.

This alone makes option C, "niether" one to consider.

Don't get me wrong, but if you don't enjoy working on your rig, be it new, old, stock or built then 1/2 of the fun is lost.

Even new TJs need work. Even a stock TJ if you wheel it, will need work, and then the mods will be work, and dialing in the mods will be work, and picking the upgrades will be work, and scrounging the junkyards or searching the internet or pouring through catalogs to find the right part will be work.

Again, if this isn't fun...

There is always the option of having a shop do all the work, but that will cost an arm, a leg and one or two offspring

Then there is the breakdown on the trail aspect. If you hate working in the confines of a garage or shop with all your tools, and creature comforts there, working on your rig on the trail will likely be really miserable.

So, perhaps I misunderstood that or perhaps you should look beyond the TJ vs YJ and ask yourself if you really want a rig for the trail.

Personally, I'd build a TJ over a YJ any day, but that's me.

- Dan ( who hasn't voted in this poll).

[TJRON]

Let me get this straight. You are choosing a Jeep by how hard the top is to put on and off. In the same breath you mention engine and axle swaps and how you hate wrenching?
I really don't feel you've got the spirit of this board. I think your question would do well on JU though.
Good Luck with your decisions......
Ron

[LeadFoot]

Guess I came across you guys wrong, lemme try to explain it.

It's not that I don't like wrenching, it's just that in the past other projects, everything always fights you. You bust your head on the edge of the bumper, and bleed like a leaking siv. (I was trying to get the oil filter I had laying in front of the Jeep while on my creeper) Then you just get mad, lose concentration, and it takes even longer. I would much rather wheel than do repairs. I don't feel like a sissy at all if I don't take the hardest route everytime. Sure, people cheer you on, but it's not their rig they are fixing.

I couldn't care less if I get boo'ed on for taking the easy way out. Not everyone has $$$ for a trail rig and a DD rig, mine has to do both.

I go trail riding with my best friends all the time on dirtbikes. Yeah, I didn't go through that Hero section of 3 1/2 ft of mud, but then again, I didn't have to walk my bike home. See what I mean?

Don't get me wrong, I love all Jeeps,except those with 20" rims. They have much to be diseired(sp).

The tops is just a side benifit. I guess the original really needs replacing. I bet if I just got a new replacement, it'd be 100 times easier.

<deep breath> I just need to sleep on it. Right now after 3 days of jackhammering, my brain is shaken up and I feel a dual-sport bike bug getting to me. I go crazy sometimes, just add me to the ignore list, then all will be well. :P This Jeep sport sure is burning a hole in my wallet, AND my brain!

[mrblaine]

Don't mind Ron, he's just a little cranky because he hasn't had his nap yet today.

I understand TJ's and how to make them work fairly well. It takes money, perseverance, dirty hands, a fair bit of mechanical ability, and the desire to modify things.

The same thing does apply to the YJ, it's just that most things, as you noted, are a tad harder due to age, neglect, and rust.

Did I not want to work on something, I would buy a TJ, slap a budget boost, the correct shocks, a set of disconnects on it and go wheeling.

[TJRON]

No Blaine, I was cranky 'cause I just woke up from my nap!

[LeadFoot]

Originally posted by mrblaine
Don't mind Ron, he's just a little cranky because he hasn't had his nap yet today.

I understand TJ's and how to make them work fairly well. It takes money, perseverance, dirty hands, a fair bit of mechanical ability, and the desire to modify things.

The same thing does apply to the YJ, it's just that most things, as you noted, are a tad harder due to age, neglect, and rust.

Did I not want to work on something, I would buy a TJ, slap a budget boost, the correct shocks, a set of disconnects on it and go wheeling.

That's pretty much what I was thinking. I hate it when people always "need" to have the biggest meats, just to look down on everyone else on the way to the mall. I think Jeeps and Jeepin' are about meeting new people and having fun off-road. Right? With the D44, I can rest alittle easier about locking the rear. Our YJ top is getting easier every time, but only my Dad and I can do it without looking like a idiot. Won't even start to talk about my mom and sister. It needs a new top really bad. Hmm, $500 for a new top or a 3"lift?

Hate to sound like a cheapsake, but if I was to have a TJ, it would have a 2 1/2" lift, 1"(If they make them, I can't recall) or 3/4" spacers, a 1.25" BL, Quick-discos, and 33's. This would avoid things like SYEs, CV D-S, etc. Having only one paycheck, I gotta take things on step at a time.

[John]

If you can't do the engine swap yourself (axles are too easy to worry about) then you're better off selling your YJ and getting the TJ.
I called up 4XDoc one time to ask about a motor swap for a guy in my club. The turn key cost was going to be like $10,000 with them buying all the parts and installing them.
I doubt you're going to be getting enough out of your YJ to be able to just add a couple thousand and to buy a TJ though. Unless your market is different then every other one I've ever seen.

[Robert J. Yates]

I am not sure I understand the motor swap - the 6 is not necessarily needed to go wheeling with. The 4 actually offers alot of creative ways to mod the Jeep for hardcore trail use. If I can find the financial where with all in the next year, I have an idea for a 4 banger auto YJ that I want to turn into a trail toy. I think they make excellent candidates for that.


Now, if this is your daily driver and not going to be a trail toy or weekend toy, then maybe you best get the TJ with a warranty, slap on a BB, disocs and as Blaine said, go wheelin. We have a little discussion around the trail campfire that occurs every once in a while on how to build a budget boost TJ on 31's that will spank the snot out of these guys who run around thinking they are Jeep gods in their TJ's on 33's

[Instaurare]

I always felt that this issue of build a jeep vs. buy a jeep was way overblown in importance. In how many other sports is the player expected to also be a mechanic? Is a tennis player expected to string his racquet, or a Nascar racer expected to do the wrench work on his racecar? Airline pilots don't generally tinker with the turbines, but do we doubt their committment to flying on account of that? Let us just say that some of us with limited periods of time available would rather spend them on wheeling than on getting the rig ready to wheel. And consider also that a job that may take some of you only a few minutes to do may take a good deal longer for someone lacking your same degree of training and experience.
Leadfoot, if I were you, I would go for a new one. I think I would also make it a Rubicon.

[Jeeper]

Instaurare, when you break on the trail, who fixes it?

Jeeper

[TObject]

I think that fixing a broken jeep is one thing. Building one is another.

I haven?t seen too many jeeps that were built from scratch, and even then ?builders? often use readily available components. Therefore, I don?t think that the whole point of built vs. bought is valid. There are no jeeps that I am aware of that were built without purchasing at least something.

I believe a TJ would be easier to work on just because it is newer than YJ: less rust, seized up parts, more resource left in the components...

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by Instaurare
or a Nascar racer expected to do the wrench work on his racecar

While he might not be wrenching on it, he is very involved with what is getting wrenched on to set it up. Bad analogy.

If you are going to play hard, you have to be plugged into every facet of your rig. MO is that you will not be able to come even close to extracting the last bit of performance out of your rig unless you know how it works. The only way to really understand how it works is to be wrenching on it.

Every noob goes through this. I avoided it as much as I could when I first got into the sport but then I trashed my stock output shaft. That led to a new t-case with a Teralow and a belly-up and about 9 months of solid breaking **** and fixing it. I got real tired of it after awhile but i worked my way through it. Once I got through all those headaches, not only did I learn how to wrench on my junk, I ended up with a fair collection of new tools in my garage and a new set of friends who were also going through the same thing. There are now about 5-6 of us who solidly work on our junk together. If we aren't wheeling we are wrenching and frankly, wrenching together is a close second to wheeling together as far as we are concerned.

[Joe Dillard]

Originally posted by LeadFoot
Right now I have a '94 YJ 4 banger with the works.

-John

John, sounds like you may have the "itch" for a new TJ, but the budget that limits you to keep your YJ (at least for now). Since the "'94 YJ 4 banger with the works", is going well for you now (with exception of the softop), perhaps you should hold on to it for a while longer.

If the top needs to be replaced & the hardware is OK, the Bestop Replace A Top (RAT), is a good option you may want to consider. My wife got me a new one locally for ~$220 for Fathers Day a few yrs ago.

Good Luck.

[speaceman]

Well, I may not be the best person to respond to this thread since I drive a short bus, but when you are the only one in a group of wranglers, you tend to notice differences in lines taken and sucess in clearing obsticals.

From my personal observations comparing a TJ vs. a YJ that needs to be a daily driver as well as a trail-rig, I'd go with the TJ.

The TJ's suspension works better offroad, stock. Stock YJs have a much harder time on the same obsticals. With very little money, you can get a budget boost and fit 31s or 32s with little effort. We have several people in our group who have run this way for awhile and they made it over everything we did on trails up to the level of difficulty at big bear.

Plus, with a TJ, you get the nicer interior, the nicer ride and for you specifically the better top, axle upgrade, and the i-6.

In the end though, it really depends on if you think you can afford the Jeep swap, which is a chunk of change all at once vs. the YJ build up which can be saved up for a bit at a time.

[Paradiddle]

John,

From what I've learned from Blaine and Robert - and Williams woes - is that if you are thinking 33's go to 35's.

In my book you either do exactly what Blaine said - a budget boost, correct shocks, 31's and discos and have a blast - maybe a rear locker or you go 4" lift with body lift and 35s.

William was regretful of going to the 33s because the costs are the same to go to 35s.

If you are not going to run hardcore type trails then the 31s will get you over anything.

Just my .02 from listening to the guys on this board for a while now.

Jeff

[TJRON]

Originally posted by Paradiddle
John,

From what I've learned from Blaine and Robert - and Williams woes - is that if you are thinking 33's go to 35's.

In my book you either do exactly what Blaine said - a budget boost, correct shocks, 31's and discos and have a blast - maybe a rear locker or you go 4" lift with body lift and 35s.

William was regretful of going to the 33s because the costs are the same to go to 35s.

If you are not going to run hardcore type trails then the 31s will get you over anything.

Just my .02 from listening to the guys on this board for a while now.

Jeff

Your listening to the Southern California boys that do mostly Southern California trails or trails familiar to them. They reason this because the trails they mostly do can be put in two categories. 31" trails and 35" trails. True, the cost to go to 35s is the same as 33s but:
On many trails accross the country 33s will clear rocks 31s won't and will give you a lower center of gravity than 35s. 33" tires need less gearing and give the Jeep less wind resistance on the highway for over all better performance.
Don't get me wrong, I will never go back to 33s but I know folks who will never go to 35s and can argue a pretty good case.
33s can also give you an excuse to not do trails that are too difficult or are likely to cause carnage.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Instaurare
I always felt that this issue of build a jeep vs. buy a jeep was way overblown in importance. In how many other sports is the player expected to also be a mechanic?

Until you reach Nascar, IRL, SCORE, or any other professional level, nearly all of the drivers wrench on there own vehicles. Even then many of them continue to assist when wrenching is needed. Somehow I don't really see you on the trail with your own pit crew and therein lies the necessity to know your rig, have wonderful trail buddies or be a huge burden to the group. No group you say? Well, then it becomes imperative if you wheel alone to be self sufficient and not knowing how to put your hub conversion back together can really ruin your day.


Is a tennis player expected to string his racquet

No, I doubt that most string their own racquets. I will however bet that if they needed that racquet strung to get back home, they could figure it out from the times when they did string their own racquet.

or a Nascar racer expected to do the wrench work on his racecar? Airline pilots don't generally tinker with the turbines, but do we doubt their committment to flying on account of that?

If you come up with a jeep that costs as much as an airliner, I will bet that you can afford to have anyone you wish do the work for you.

Let us just say that some of us with limited periods of time available would rather spend them on wheeling than on getting the rig ready to wheel. And consider also that a job that may take some of you only a few minutes to do may take a good deal longer for someone lacking your same degree of training and experience.
Leadfoot, if I were you, I would go for a new one. I think I would also make it a Rubicon.

The built vs. bought arguement is invalid for this discussion. Let me give you an example. I could build Robert, Garry, William, Sergey, Paul, Stu, and many others a rig without any input from them, plop them down sight unseen in the middle of any trail we have ever been on and if they broke, they would be able to get home. The reason, they all have wrenched on rigs and learned how to do it. Not necessarily building their own, but helping others to do so.

I will also put my limited wrenching time up against anyone's. I struggle daily to find enough time to get just the basics done. I do have periods where my time is a little more freed up, but lately, I have been at it around 100 hrs a week.

I do know one thing. If you don't wrench on it, it is doubtful that you will ever learn how.

[Instaurare]

Originally posted by Jeeper
Instaurare, when you break on the trail, who fixes it?

Jeeper

I thought that's what the chauffeur is for.

[Jeeper]

Originally posted by Instaurare




I thought that's what the chauffeur is for.

Your winkiey smiley asside, I'm glad to see that others understood my brief comment.

Jeeper

[LeadFoot]

Originally posted by Joe Dillard


John, sounds like you may have the "itch" for a new TJ, but the budget that limits you to keep your YJ (at least for now). Since the "'94 YJ 4 banger with the works", is going well for you now (with exception of the softop), perhaps you should hold on to it for a while longer.

If the top needs to be replaced & the hardware is OK, the Bestop Replace A Top (RAT), is a good option you may want to consider. My wife got me a new one locally for ~$220 for Fathers Day a few yrs ago.

Good Luck.

Joe: You pretty much hit the nail on the head about affording it. The extra $1500 that I have can be spent towards the newer TJ. Just did the KBB on it, it's $5,300. $700, $800 for the hardtop, and about $900 for the full doors, as they are in near perfect condition(Besides dust)

That's around $7,000. Add another $1500, and you get $9500-Just about what '97's are going for. All I would need on the TJ is the 6, 5 sp or auto, and the D44.

I price this out in my head: Around $1500 for a I-6,tranny,tc,etc swap for my YJ. Around $1000 for a axle swap. Now, I know that the axle itself is only around $350. Chances are, it'll need to be regeared. Add $500 (General price for MY AREA.) Since it's all apart, it would be no big deal to add a lunchbox locker.

After all I would put into it, the YJ would STILL BE WORTH $5,300. When you add mods, you cannot get the full price back. I would go to a low mileage(haha) 70,000 TJ. Wouldn't have to worry about engine rebuilds, as I know Jeeps are built. See were I'm coming from? The TJ would have more re-sale value if I ever decided to sell.
-John

[Instaurare]

Originally posted by Jeeper


Your winkiey smiley asside, I'm glad to see that others understood my brief comment.

Jeeper

The severity of the trail and the remoteness and harshness of the location are really the factors that dictate the degree of preparation necessary for any offroad trek. And by this I mean preparation in materials as well as mechanical expertise. Of course, anyone who attempts something beyond his ability to control the situation has no one to blame but himself if and when things go sour.
In short, I understand your point, but for less arduous and dangerous trails, a lesser degree of preparation and ability is, in my opinion, acceptable. You just have to be careful to avoid getting into something over your head.
Now, the winkiey smiley asside, how about a grinney?

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Instaurare


The severity of the trail and the remoteness and harshness of the location are really the factors that dictate the degree of preparation necessary for any offroad trek. And by this I mean preparation in materials as well as mechanical expertise. Of course, anyone who attempts something beyond his ability to control the situation has no one to blame but himself if and when things go sour.
In short, I understand your point, but for less arduous and dangerous trails, a lesser degree of preparation and ability is, in my opinion, acceptable. You just have to be careful to avoid getting into something over your head.
Now, the winkiey smiley asside, how about a grinney?

You have illustrated a near perfect cyber scenario to validate your stance, and demonstrated the ability to construct sentences consisting of verbage other than monosyllabic building blocks. It is nice to view your highly verbose modification of the Boy Scout motto with the modifier to be that if one can forsee circumstance that you are not prepared for, that the better part of valor that day may well be mowing the lawn.

Let me put forth a counter scenario that I have been involved in personally that may shed a contradictory shade of view out of your rose colored lenses. Whilst traversing a highly difficult and hair raising portion of one of our more notorious recreational venues, one of my friends committed a driving blunder that resulted in a chance meeting with a rock outcropping and his left front wheel under power. For all intents and purposes, the damage was negligible and limited to a minor scuff to the tread area of the tire and an intense desire to have some upholstery removed from his nether regions. All is well. We then decide that since we have finished in such a timely manner it is only fitting that we reward ourselves with attempting another of these fine trails, only one considerably less strenuous and difficult to negotiate. During this excursion, my friend executes a fairly innocuous maneuver consisting of a slight grade and a slight turn to the left requiring minimal throttle to accomplish. In the midst of this, the left front univeral joint decided that it will no longer be abused and expressed this by exploding itself and in the process passing enough shock load along the componentry that the manual locking hub then achieves the same sympathetic state.

None of this has anything to do with the illustration of preparedness, but instead is designed to point out that no matter how easy the current task we ask of our vehicle, we still may have earned enough damage points along the way so that a really simple part can and will fail at the most inopportune moment. Usually one when you were least expecting it.

[Jeeper]

The Grinney smilie is fine. I understand where you are comming from but then again, I have no idea of who you really are, how you wheel or your mechanical ability. I will be the first to admit that my mechanical/fab skills were nothing to be desired by anyone when I first got into Jeeping and I still have so much more to learn that I cannot fathom ever stopping.

One thing that I can say is that I am the one that tightened every bolt, researched every part I bought, fabbed every item that was custom and learned from every experience. This of course was all with the help of some very good friends and not a manual. Some of those friends are members of this board.

The "built" vs. "Bought" argument is a matter of definition and semantics. I feel that I "Built" my rig to my liking and my needs even though some parts were purchased. Could I have bought a Sniper or other custom rockcrawling rig? Yep! Did I? NO....actually make that a Hell no! Part of the off-road Jeeping experience for me was in fact learning the ins and outs of the mechanics and operation of the structural and driveline components. In doing so, I also learned how to fix something should it break in an ackward situation.

Even though someone traverses the "easy" trails, sometimes the simple things break. Don't tell me you have never had a U-joint fail on you.

Jeeper

[mrblaine]

Jeeper, that's pretty good. We both replied at nearly the same time with near identical scenarios. How cool is that?

[LeadFoot]

Now now relax, I didn't intend to start any flame wars between you guys!

[Jeeper]

Originally posted by mrblaine
Jeeper, that's pretty good. We both replied at nearly the same time with near identical scenarios. How cool is that?

Yes but your response was much more eliquent...(did I spell that right )

Jeeper

[Jeeper]

Originally posted by LeadFoot
Now now relax, I didn't intend to start any flame wars between you guys!

This would be a discussion and not a "Flame war" although we have in fact intruded on your thread

Jeeper

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by LeadFoot
Now now relax, I didn't intend to start any flame wars between you guys!

It appears that you have finally hit upon the appeal of this place. What you are seeing is a discussion with opposing viewpoints that will not degrade into the name calling and outright rudeness that usually befits a "flame war".

We also have the ability to acknowledge that not everyone has the same requirements or desires when it comes to this sport.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Jeeper


Yes but your response was much more eliquent...(did I spell that right )

Jeeper

I just checked my dictionary and you did spell the word "that" correctly.