Oooops - the fear mongers are wrong

[Paradiddle]

Our current reign of terror could be wrong....what!!!

I'm sure Homeland Security will censor the news on this one. And yes with Robert no longer talking to us I'm now the paranoid one!

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Tue Feb 26, 2:39 AM ET



SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Immigrants are far less likely than the average U.S.-born citizen to commit crime in California, the most populous state in the United States, according to a report issued late on Monday.

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People born outside the United States make up about 35 percent of California's adult population but account for about 17 percent of the adult prison population, the report by the Public Policy Institute of California showed.

According to the report's authors the findings suggest that long-standing fears of immigration as a threat to public safety are unjustified. The report also noted that U.S.-born adult men are incarcerated at a rate more than 2 1/2 times greater than that of foreign-born men.

"Our research indicates that limiting immigration, requiring higher educational levels to obtain visas, or spending more money to increase penalties against criminal immigrants will have little impact on public safety," said Kristin Butcher, co-author of the report and associate professor of economics at Wellesley College.

The study did not differentiate between documented immigrants and illegal immigrants.

The question of what to do about the millions of undocumented workers living in the United States has been one of the major issues in the U.S. presidential election. Mexico, which accounts for a high proportion of illegal immigrants in California, was deeply disappointed at the U.S. Congress' failure to pass President George W. Bush's overhaul of immigration laws last year.

When Butcher and her co-author, Anne Morrison Piehl, associate professor of economics at Rutgers University, considered all those committed to institutions including prison, jails, halfway houses and the like, they found an even greater disparity.

Among men 18 to 40, the population most likely to be in institutions because of criminal activity, the report found that in California, U.S.-born men were institutionalized 10 times more often than foreign-born men (4.2 percent vs. 0.42 percent).

Among other findings in the report, non-citizen men from Mexico 18 to 40 -- a group disproportionately likely to have entered the United States illegally -- are more than eight times less likely than U.S.-born men in the same age group to be in a correctional institution (0.48 percent vs. 4.2 percent).

"From a public safety standpoint, there would be little reason to further limit immigration, to favor entry by high-skilled immigrants, or to increase penalties against criminal immigrants," the report said.

(Reporting by Duncan Martell; Editing by Adam Tanner and Bill Trott)

[Matt Pascoe]

One of the many tragic realities for illegal immigrants. They risk their lives to get here, work their asses off once their here and their US born second generation children wind up on drugs, in gangs, and in prison.

Does that make it NOT an immigration problem?

[Gunnys TJ]

Originally Posted by Matt Pascoe

One of the many tragic realities for illegal immigrants. They risk their lives to get here, work their asses off once their here and their US born second generation children wind up on drugs, in gangs, and in prison.

Does that make it NOT an immigration problem?

x2. It's the second generation that takes advantage from what I've seen in my life as a Californian.

[mrblaine]

Originally Posted by Paradiddle

Our current reign of terror could be wrong....what!!!

I'm sure Homeland Security will censor the news on this one. And yes with Robert no longer talking to us I'm now the paranoid one!

------------------

Tue Feb 26, 2:39 AM ET



SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Immigrants are far less likely than the average U.S.-born citizen to commit crime in California, the most populous state in the United States, according to a report issued late on Monday.

ADVERTISEMENT

People born outside the United States make up about 35 percent of California's adult population but account for about 17 percent of the adult prison population, the report by the Public Policy Institute of California showed.

According to the report's authors the findings suggest that long-standing fears of immigration as a threat to public safety are unjustified. The report also noted that U.S.-born adult men are incarcerated at a rate more than 2 1/2 times greater than that of foreign-born men.

"Our research indicates that limiting immigration, requiring higher educational levels to obtain visas, or spending more money to increase penalties against criminal immigrants will have little impact on public safety," said Kristin Butcher, co-author of the report and associate professor of economics at Wellesley College.

The study did not differentiate between documented immigrants and illegal immigrants.

The question of what to do about the millions of undocumented workers living in the United States has been one of the major issues in the U.S. presidential election. Mexico, which accounts for a high proportion of illegal immigrants in California, was deeply disappointed at the U.S. Congress' failure to pass President George W. Bush's overhaul of immigration laws last year.

When Butcher and her co-author, Anne Morrison Piehl, associate professor of economics at Rutgers University, considered all those committed to institutions including prison, jails, halfway houses and the like, they found an even greater disparity.

Among men 18 to 40, the population most likely to be in institutions because of criminal activity, the report found that in California, U.S.-born men were institutionalized 10 times more often than foreign-born men (4.2 percent vs. 0.42 percent).

Among other findings in the report, non-citizen men from Mexico 18 to 40 -- a group disproportionately likely to have entered the United States illegally -- are more than eight times less likely than U.S.-born men in the same age group to be in a correctional institution (0.48 percent vs. 4.2 percent).

"From a public safety standpoint, there would be little reason to further limit immigration, to favor entry by high-skilled immigrants, or to increase penalties against criminal immigrants," the report said.

(Reporting by Duncan Martell; Editing by Adam Tanner and Bill Trott)

If you went to prison for entering the country illegally, which is a crime, there would be no room in the prisons for US born citizens.

[Paradiddle]

Originally Posted by Gunnys TJ

x2. It's the second generation that takes advantage from what I've seen in my life as a Californian.

Matt - does your thoughts and Gunnys thoughts apply to us "white boys" who are second generation as well?

So Sergey's kids will be worse then him (which is hard to believe)

[speaceman]

I don't know how it was for the other large immigrations in american history, such as the irish, or the italians, but I can compare my experience and those of the kids I went to school with that were 1st or 2nd generation Americans with parents from various parts of the world (israel, thailand, korea, japan, taiwan, Middle East, etc) and I have to say there was a distinct cultural difference with regards to expectations and education.

My parents and the parents of my friends wanted all of us to get an education so we could start with a good job so we wouldn't have to work our way up like they did when they first came to this country. We were expected to take advantage of any and all opportunities with regards to education offered to us.

My wife taught 3rd grade in LAUSD and she was teaching the kids of the new immigrants and I have to say, very, very few parents in her classes in any one year were at all interested in what their kids were doing in school. They just didn't care much. It was not important to them. It was a very take it or leave it attitude.

Perhaps 2 parents, out of a full class were actually interested and actively involved with what their kids were doing in class.

It was pretty sad. It wasn't the kids, because for the most part they were there and they were trying. It was the parents who were the problems with absolutely no goals or expectations of their kids.

A common complaint of the parents was, "my kid never does his homework".

My wife would ask, "so what does he do at home."

They would respond, "all he does is watch TV."

To which my wife would say, "turn of the TV, make him do his homework." At the next teacher parent conference, it would be the same thing.

The parents just couldn't be bothered.

[TObject]

Originally Posted by Paradiddle

So Sergey's kids will be worse then him

That is unless I purchase my children from outside of the US, of course.

[Joe Dillard]

I could go on & on about this for eons. I could easily write a book.

[Paradiddle]

Originally Posted by speaceman

I don't know how it was for the other large immigrations in american history, such as the irish, or the italians, but I can compare my experience and those of the kids I went to school with that were 1st or 2nd generation Americans with parents from various parts of the world (israel, thailand, korea, japan, taiwan, Middle East, etc) and I have to say there was a distinct cultural difference with regards to expectations and education.

My parents and the parents of my friends wanted all of us to get an education so we could start with a good job so we wouldn't have to work our way up like they did when they first came to this country. We were expected to take advantage of any and all opportunities with regards to education offered to us.

My wife taught 3rd grade in LAUSD and she was teaching the kids of the new immigrants and I have to say, very, very few parents in her classes in any one year were at all interested in what their kids were doing in school. They just didn't care much. It was not important to them. It was a very take it or leave it attitude.

Perhaps 2 parents, out of a full class were actually interested and actively involved with what their kids were doing in class.

It was pretty sad. It wasn't the kids, because for the most part they were there and they were trying. It was the parents who were the problems with absolutely no goals or expectations of their kids.

A common complaint of the parents was, "my kid never does his homework".

My wife would ask, "so what does he do at home."

They would respond, "all he does is watch TV."

To which my wife would say, "turn of the TV, make him do his homework." At the next teacher parent conference, it would be the same thing.

The parents just couldn't be bothered.

Interesting viewpoint. I find it odd that a group (the fresh immigrants) that are regarded as hard workers are also regarded as bad parents.

I have no experience in these kids other then the few I've coached (I've had 4 kids 1st generation US - 3 whos parents were very involved, one whos wasn't) so don't take this as an argument. I have no dog in this hunt other then to say that we need to solve our immigration issues in a way that works for us and the immigrants.

Our current media and governments tact of fear is not working.

[Matt Pascoe]

Originally Posted by Paradiddle

Matt - does your thoughts and Gunnys thoughts apply to us "white boys" who are second generation as well?

So Sergey's kids will be worse then him (which is hard to believe)

I think there is a distinct difference between 2nd generation of legal, vs illegal immigrants. Probably because legal immigrants must have some wealth/education prior to immigrating.

My experience comes from working closely with VERY poor illegal immigrants from Mexico and Central America. It seems they place an unreasonable value on the dollar - if they work hard enough and save diligently the American dream will come to them. It typically doesn?t.

Now their kids have grown with minimal parent involvement (too busy) and have watched their parents kill themselves for a buck with no long term rewards. The kids become totally disenchanted with the idea of working for the dollar, there must be an easier way for them, right? Gangs become the family, crime becomes the career.

Screwed up situation

[speaceman]

Originally Posted by Paradiddle

Interesting viewpoint. I find it odd that a group (the fresh immigrants) that are regarded as hard workers are also regarded as bad parents.

I wouldn't say they were bad parents, necessarily. They work hard but for the most part don't have any real expectations for their kids.

From what I saw growing up, the immigrant parents I knew worked hard as well, but expected their kids to work equally as hard in school to get ahead.

That drive really is almost completely missing from the kids I've seen in my wife's classes.

School is a baby sitter instead of an opportunity. The test scores coming out of LAUSD every year reflect this.

These kids don't have much of a chance when they hit the real world after school.

[Paradiddle]

Originally Posted by Matt Pascoe

I think there is a distinct difference between 2nd generation of legal, vs illegal immigrants. Probably because legal immigrants must have some wealth/education prior to immigrating.

My experience comes from working closely with VERY poor illegal immigrants from Mexico and Central America. It seems they place an unreasonable value on the dollar - if they work hard enough and save diligently the American dream will come to them. It typically doesn?t.

Now their kids have grown with minimal parent involvement (too busy) and have watched their parents kill themselves for a buck with no long term rewards. The kids become totally disenchanted with the idea of working for the dollar, there must be an easier way for them, right? Gangs become the family, crime becomes the career.

Screwed up situation

I was thinking along the same lines on the drive in. The illegals I know work VERY hard - most have 2 jobs. I don't know how they have time to properly parent.

Thanks.

[Paradiddle]

Originally Posted by speaceman

I wouldn't say they were bad parents, necessarily. They work hard but for the most part don't have any real expectations for their kids.

From what I saw growing up, the immigrant parents I knew worked hard as well, but expected their kids to work equally as hard in school to get ahead.

That drive really is almost completely missing from the kids I've seen in my wife's classes.

School is a baby sitter instead of an opportunity. The test scores coming out of LAUSD every year reflect this.

These kids don't have much of a chance when they hit the real world after school.

This speaks to a much larger issue that we face in what I call the generation of "entitlement" - part of the HUGE problem the US is facing is this lazy ass generation who feel they are "owed" something and do not take responsibility for their actions because "it's not their fault". This is the route cause of so many social and economic issues it's staggering.

Only strong moral parenting will break the cycle and with dual working parents I'm not sure there will be a chance to break it.

[ken white]

Originally Posted by Paradiddle

This speaks to a much larger issue that we face in what I call the generation of "entitlement" - part of the HUGE problem the US is facing is this lazy ass generation who feel they are "owed" something and do not take responsibility for their actions because "it's not their fault". This is the route cause of so many social and economic issues it's staggering.

I agree...

[Jeff Weston]

Originally Posted by Paradiddle

This speaks to a much larger issue that we face in what I call the generation of "entitlement" - part of the HUGE problem the US is facing is this lazy ass generation who feel they are "owed" something and do not take responsibility for their actions because "it's not their fault". This is the route cause of so many social and economic issues it's staggering.

Only strong moral parenting will break the cycle and with dual working parents I'm not sure there will be a chance to break it.

I know that the young generation is often described as having a sense of entitlement and being lazy, much of it probably deserved, but I can tell you with absolute certainty that today's students have a much more difficult path towards higher education than previous generations due to the fact that the number of applicants is expanding much faster than the number of spaces at schools.

When I was in high school there were only a few honors (A.P.) classes available, and even then, they were for upper classmen. Looking at my nephew's transcript and reading the average GPA and SAT at all the major universities, California and nationwide, it is insane the amount of work these kids have to put in just to compete for the comparatively few available spots. As far as I can tell, all the core curriculum classes have been moved up by one grade level (high school classes are starting in 8th grade) and A.P. is not the exception, but practically a requirement for a college track. On top of that, summer school is pretty much a requirement as well as community service hours. Lazy or not, I sure wouldn't want to go through what these kids are. We went to school, did a little homework and partied on the weekends and still headed off to college to hone our partying skills ... living the teenage American dream.

As for the performance of students at LAUSD, it is NOT entirely the parents' fault (though that is a serious problem!!!!!). Confidentially agreements, along with this being a PG-13 forum, keep me from truly speaking freely, but I can assure you that it is a mess from the top down! It is so big and disorganized that it can't get out of its own way and needs to be blown up! ( edit: figuratively, not literally in case Homeland security has software monitoring this site).