what is going on?

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Art Welch
Did you talk to them about why it's important to unstack the rocks when they're done?

Is that important?

[Art Welch]

Originally posted by mrblaine
Is that important?

It is to me. I don't like seeing trails paved with stacked rocks. It's my experience that most of the time the people doing it have no clue why the right thing to do is unstack when done. If nobody educates them they won't change.

If the off road community took 50% of the energy put into complaining about things and used it to actually do something to change the situation things might turn out differently for the sport.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Art Welch
It is to me. I don't like seeing trails paved with stacked rocks. It's my experience that most of the time the people doing it have no clue why the right thing to do is unstack when done. If nobody educates them they won't change.

If the off road community took 50% of the energy put into complaining about things and used it to actually do something to change the situation things might turn out differently for the sport.

I don't like seeing them paved, but one of my bigger pet peeves is a rig with bigger tires that just won't let you stack the one rock that it takes to give him that little extra to climb out of the holes he jus made deeper.

What's the difference between the rig kicking rocks down the trail or me tossing them up the trail?

Say I was to exert this 50 percent you speak of? Where would you have me start?

[Art Welch]

Originally posted by mrblaine
I don't like seeing them paved, but one of my bigger pet peeves is a rig with bigger tires that just won't let you stack the one rock that it takes to give him that little extra to climb out of the holes he jus made deeper.

You've really been in a situation where someone wouldn't let you stack a rock? Perhaps I'm not being clear, my issue is when people don't unstack the rocks they stack. Everyone needs to stack occasionally.

Originally posted by mrblaine
What's the difference between the rig kicking rocks down the trail or me tossing them up the trail?

Seems like the same thing to me.

Originally posted by mrblaine
Say I was to exert this 50 percent you speak of? Where would you have me start?

I guess that really depends on your personal priorities. Based on the contents of this thread alone it seems that there are plenty of areas that could benefit.

[DanB98TJ]

Originally posted by Art Welch
Did you talk to them about why it's important to unstack the rocks when they're done?

Nope - we normally see the trail after it was done, and then read on the BBS all the boasting about how "I did [insert trail name here] today."

I've lost count how many times we've unstacked rocks after finding obstacles "paved," only to come back the next time to find it passable for a #*&%ing Tracker.

Blaine brings up another good point: People being ashamed/embarrassed/too egotistical to use a few strategically-placed rocks instead of digging holes through obstacles, which then require additional rock stacking to make it through. The Firehole (or the exit, I should say) on Upper Woodpecker has been torn to $hit, leaving it impossible to get through without rock stacking. On the last run we did, all three vehicles that successfully made it through the Firehole required rock stacking to get out the other side - the Firehole itself wasn't a problem (except for me...ProComp tires suck).

[Robert J. Yates]

while i guess my rant qualifies as complaining, I would like to know why it is reasonable to expect folks to police the actions of others?

I didn't get in this sport to spend my day on the trail to pick up the trash.

....and while I have done my share of trail clean-ups and was glad to do it - I am no longer the least bit interested in doing that because it doesn't work. it seems in fact to be expected and that is what really irritates me.

[Jes Hinkley]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
while i guess my rant qualifies as complaining, I would like to know why it is reasonable to expect folks to police the actions of others?

I didn't get in this sport to spend my day on the trail to pick up the trash.

....and while I have done my share of trail clean-ups and was glad to do it - I am no longer the least bit interested in doing that because it doesn't work. it seems in fact to be expected and that is what really irritates me.

Seems to me, you're the exact type of person that needs to stay off the trails. If you're too tired of picking up trash, then keep your selfish ass at home. If I see you look at a piece of trash laying on the side of the trail and not stop to pick it up then you may find yourself limping home on a spare.

While the problem may be the assholes pitching it out the window, it's asshole such as yourself that contribute to the problem. Whoopity doo if you USED to be happy to do your part. I, in fact, do take it upon myself to police others' actions on the trails for the simple fact that too many of you sh!ts think you're God's gift to Jeeps and think the trails are only there for your amusement. It p!sses me off to think that the peice of trash that you refuse to pick up may end up staying on that trail for years, and someday one of my future grandkids will be wheeling through and find that 40 year old beer can. But the difference between them and you wil be that they have enough respect for the world to pick it up.

Get over yourself and get with the program. If everyone had your sh!tty attitude, the trails would be closed in 6 months.

[Jes Hinkley]

Oh and nice Technical thread.

[DanB98TJ]

Originally posted by Jes Hinkley
Seems to me, you're the exact type of person that needs to stay off the trails. If you're too tired of picking up trash, then keep your selfish ass at home. If I see you look at a piece of trash laying on the side of the trail and not stop to pick it up then you may find yourself limping home on a spare.

Well, excuse the f**k out of me. I didn't write the response you're referring to, but when the hell did it become MY job to pick up OTHER people's crap? I wheel because I enjoy it, not because I like collecting cans and other garbage. Hell, on some of the trails, I'd be getting out of the Jeep every 20 feet. Yes, I have picked up trash in the past, and still do it on occasion, but it's not my responsibility to clean up after others. If you feel it's yours, fine, but don't slam those of us who would rather spend on the trail doing what we went there for.

Oh, and not lending someone a hand because they didn't pick up a little trash is pretty chicken$hit...IMHO, of course.

[Jes Hinkley]

Originally posted by DanB98TJ
Well, excuse the f**k out of me. I didn't write the response you're referring to, but when the hell did it become MY job to pick up OTHER people's crap? I wheel because I enjoy it, not because I like collecting cans and other garbage. Hell, on some of the trails, I'd be getting out of the Jeep every 20 feet. Yes, I have picked up trash in the past, and still do it on occasion, but it's not my responsibility to clean up after others. If you feel it's yours, fine, but don't slam those of us who would rather spend on the trail doing what we went there for.

Oh, and not lending someone a hand because they didn't pick up a little trash is pretty chicken$hit...IMHO, of course.

It becomes YOUR job when you use the public lands for YOUR pleasure. Someone's gotta pick the sh!t up. If it doesn't get picked up, then your public trails that you so love to ignore except for the ruts that your tires ride in will be closed to everybody.

I don't like to pick the sh!t up, but if I, or others like me don't, you idiots certainly won't. Would you leave (someone elses )trash laying in your front yard? Hell no you wouldn't. And I'd bet that even if you had to pick up trash out of your yard every day there wouldn't come a time when you just say, "Fuk it! I'm not picking up this sh!t anymore."

These are YOUR public lands. If you're not going to treat them that way, then do the rest of us a favor and stay home with Yates, putz.

[mrblaine]

Curiosity overwhelmed me, so I sent the following PM to Jes Hinkley-

Curious
Let me get this straight, am I correct in assuming that you joined our board just to reply to the thread in the technical forum?

Care to explain why?

blaine


I received this reply-

No, I didn't join to reply. I found this board and registered. I'm registered on several others. Just so happens that things like that p!ss me off.

I've been a Jeep owner for 8 years and have wheeled for over 12. Nothing p!sses me off more than slobs on the trail. A close second is those that neglect the public lands such as those yahoos.

If you don't like I picked an off topic thread for my inaugural post, then p!ss off. But thanks for your concern.

I then sent this reply-

Well Jes, it looks like you get two pm's for the price of one. That would be your first and your last.

Just so you know, I am an admin on the board and it wasn't in your best interest to tell me to **** off.

See ya!

Most sincerely,

blaine

I dunno, maybe if he had introduced himself first?

[Darrell C]

Originally posted by Jes Hinkley
If I see you look at a piece of trash laying on the side of the trail and not stop to pick it up then you may find yourself limping home on a spare.

I took this as a threat. Anybody who'd threaten another person's rig for not picking up trash is part of the problem...not the solution.

[Art Welch]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
while i guess my rant qualifies as complaining, I would like to know why it is reasonable to expect folks to police the actions of others?

I understand where you're coming from Robert. I just don't have an answer to the more serious problems that impact our sport other than self policing and education. Most of the incidents are too minor to justify any sort of law enforcement response (and frankly the snap a picture and send it to the police approach for all but the most serious things really goes against my grain). But the cumulative effect of the individual incidents is potentially devastating.

That said I also think that at times people get worked up over pretty minor things. My take is that if it's important enough to someone to post online about it should also be important enough for them to do something about it in real life.

I know that you've put in significant time dealing with land use issues and yet more time on trail cleanups. If the rest of the community put forth the same effort offline things might turn out differently.

[DanB98TJ]

Originally posted by Jes Hinkley
It becomes YOUR job when you use the public lands for YOUR pleasure. Someone's gotta pick the sh!t up.

No, MY job when I use the public lands is to use them responsibly - stay on the trail, don't throw my trash out, etc. I certainly don't want to see the trails closed, but I also can't babysit the idiots who can't behave appropriately. If I see someone doing it I'll definitely say something - believe me, there are few things that **** me off less - but I no longer make it a habit to pack their garbage out.

And I don't leave crap in my yard, either - most of it I can trace to my worthless neighbor, and it ends up back in his yard...normally his back yard so it can't blow back into mine.

EDIT: Hell, being that Blaine banned his butt I guess he won't be replying any more.... I do find it a little strange that his only two posts were in this thread.

Art - I can understand your hesitation to report "minor" incidents to LE, and I feel the same way for the most part. But, that is more because LE on public lands around here is almost nonexistent, so the chances of prosecution is slim to none. If there was a better LE presence I might feel otherwise. The biggest problem, though, is seldom being able to positively identify the person responsible - I'm not going to report something unless I'm 100% sure I'm accusing the correct person.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Darrell C
I took this as a threat. Anybody who'd threaten another person's rig for not picking up trash is part of the problem...not the solution.

I know that this is a sensitive issue. I for one and not exactly happy being saddled with the perceived responsibility that I should be the trash crew for the uncaring.

What brought that home was the last CalRocs event where someone had defecated in the urinal. I found that as revolting as the trash on the trails I see. Am I expected to clean that up also in order to make something go away that I myself would never do?

Now, if Mr J. Hinkley wishes to contact someone on here, amend his name calling ways, apologize, and then rejoin the discussion, I will be more than willing to consider his case.

We've had issues in the past with discussions getting too far out of hand and we are trying to maintain some modicum of civility.

Lively is one thing, passionate even, but let's keep it level headed.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Art Welch
I understand where you're coming from Robert. I just don't have an answer to the more serious problems that impact our sport other than self policing and education. Most of the incidents are too minor to justify any sort of law enforcement response (and frankly the snap a picture and send it to the police approach for all but the most serious things really goes against my grain). But the cumulative effect of the individual incidents is potentially devastating.

That said I also think that at times people get worked up over pretty minor things. My take is that if it's important enough to someone to post online about it should also be important enough for them to do something about it in real life.

I know that you've put in significant time dealing with land use issues and yet more time on trail cleanups. If the rest of the community put forth the same effort offline things might turn out differently.

Art, I don't disagree in the slightest with the spirit of your comments.

Mostly I am at a loss as to how overwhelming the task is. We have all fought the good fight, most like myself and others don't make a big deal about how much we clean up, haul out, or even the education we attempt to pass on to others.

What I grow weary of is folks cramming down my throat that because I share the land with a group of non caring, uneducated offroaders that are there for an entirely different set of reasons than I, that it is now my responsibility to clean up after them.

I don't do it driving through the city, none of us do. I take care of my stuff, why shouldn't they?

When did the amount of trash you remove from the trail become the standard by which you should be judged?

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by DanB98TJ
I'm not going to report something unless I'm 100% sure I'm accusing the correct person.

I keep forgetting to relate this story, but you joggled my memory bank, so here goes-

When we were members of a support team for a rockcrawling team, we attended an event in Farmington. They were very sensitive about the trash and were cautioning everyone to please keep it clean.

I was on an overlook watching an obstacle below, when someone kicked an empty water bottle down the cliff. It rolled right by me from behind so it looked like it had come from me. Several folks started yelling that I had tossed it.

It went so far as to involve the judge for the obstacle(who didn't know me) and a marshall who did, who was called over to eject me from the event.

After a very brief discussion, I reached in my jacket pocket and produced a handful of cigarette butts. I then asked- If I won't throw these on the ground, why would I toss a bottle?

Fortunately there was also a witness who came forward at that time and related that I had not done it, that someone else had accidently kicked it and no one was able to catch it before it went over the edge. Profuse apologies all around, but the point is, several people were certain I was the culprit when I was only in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by Jes Hinkley
Oh and nice Technical thread.

well well well. while I am busy having a nice fathers day celebration, I find another douchebag has been trolling me.

whatever and thanks for proving my rant correct with your threats and orders to get with your program. if blaine had not banned you first, I would have. have a nice day.

[Robert J. Yates]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DanB98TJ
I do find it a little strange that his only two posts were in this thread.

just look at the last name. one hinkley has been trolling me here for the past year and a half. then this one registers, find me, and then tries to talk the same big talk from behind the keyboard too - so i figure he must be related to the other troll