what is going on?

[Robert J. Yates]

i am at a loss these days about the future of 4 wheeling. people driving on closed roads and getting others to say 'its ok'. muggs driving on a rig that is in their way. people investing 20k in a tj but routinely looking for the cheapest way to run 33's, the cheapest winch, hockey pucks for body lifts and blaine's favorite - people with no product or parts experience speaking as experts. its almost like the people that the sport has attracted are in it for all the wrong reasons.

don't get me wrong either. I never owned a jeep before my tj but I did spend a lot of time in pick-ups exploring, camping - getting to out of the way places. just seems to me its not about that at all and that bothers me - greatly.

[DanB98TJ]

The hobby is really starting to swirl 'round the bowl, isn't it?

I think it's a reflection of how society in deteriorating in general, not just Jeepers/wheelers. Breaking the rules and then coming up with all kinds of reasons why it's "okay," and the loss of respect for others and their property has become the norm.

As far as people spending lots of money on a vehicle, then skimping on quality parts or mods...well, isn't limited to Jeepers, either. I've seen some pretty scary stuff on street rods/customs....

The stuff you're talking about is the biggest reason I no longer belong to a club, and why I'm pretty selective about who I wheel with. We have a pretty good group of people who are just out to have fun - no egos, no attitudes, and always willing to lend a hand. The last club I was in started attracting a lot of yahoos and immature kids - if I want to deal with that type I'll go to work...at least I get paid for it there.

[Art Welch]

Honestly I don't think it's any different than it was 6 years ago in the RAMJAW days. Bigger tires now but that's about it, still some good people in the sport, still some bad people.

[blkTJ]

To me it's all about being able to select who you do and don't wheel with.

I'm generally a pretty easy going person. There are very few people I genuinely dislike. I think life is to short to make enemies.

That being said, there are certain folks I do not enjoy spending time with. So I don't.

[Robert J. Yates]

Yea, there has always been the yaahoo element but I guess what I am getting at is the complete and utter lack of respect for anything. These folks have no concern over safety, the results of their behavior or their fellow wheeler.

Yea, closing stuff sucks but I am starting to understand why its happening. People leave trash on the trail, oil spills, run over stuff and in general have no concern about leaving the environment they are wheeling in as they found it. I'm getting real tired of being on the responsible side of the wheeling fence and have absolutely no desire to pick up trash left by others on the trails. Let them pick up their own trash and police their own behavior or else have their wheeling spot closed down.

[John]

It's just the internet Robert. Makes it all the more visible. Couple that with the "next generation" wheelers that have gotten in to the hobby in the last 10 years or so having more disposable income then in the past and you get a lot of guys building up bigger and bigger rigs, and people trying to "keep up with the Jones's"
It really wasn't all that long ago that if you had 31's and a limited slip you were pretty well off. If you had 33's and a locker you were all but unstoppable. Everyone built to what they thought they needed and what they learned from the magazines. Now all these guys that you're seeing are on the internet and talking to each other. People put parts on a rig just because the other guy has it and it looks like a good idea.
The only good part to this is the high burn out rate. How many built rigs have you seen for sale in the last few years? Guys that built really well engineered rigs that are leaving the whole 4x4 thing for other hobby's because they grew bored and restless.

[Robert J. Yates]

Yes, the internet certainly does make some of the misbehavior very visable. I'm thinking that is a good thing as maybe it helps keep the total morons in check when they get shouted down on a public board when they are caught in the act of displaying their ignorant behavior.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by John
It's just the internet Robert. Makes it all the more visible. Couple that with the "next generation" wheelers that have gotten in to the hobby in the last 10 years or so having more disposable income then in the past and you get a lot of guys building up bigger and bigger rigs, and people trying to "keep up with the Jones's"
It really wasn't all that long ago that if you had 31's and a limited slip you were pretty well off. If you had 33's and a locker you were all but unstoppable. Everyone built to what they thought they needed and what they learned from the magazines. Now all these guys that you're seeing are on the internet and talking to each other. People put parts on a rig just because the other guy has it and it looks like a good idea.
The only good part to this is the high burn out rate. How many built rigs have you seen for sale in the last few years? Guys that built really well engineered rigs that are leaving the whole 4x4 thing for other hobby's because they grew bored and restless.

Did they grow bored and restless, or did they encounter one of the infamous drunken crash-up derbys disguised as a holiday celebration of testosterone?

[John]

Hey Robert, nice sig line

Blaine, the guys I've seen come and go usually don't get in to those party scenes. Those that do tend to stick around longer it seems. But those are the same guys that have to keep building and building because their buddy did some upgrade it seems. Like building a full on rock crawler rig when you live in "nowhere" Kansas...

[BlueJeeper]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
Yea, there has always been the yaahoo element but I guess what I am getting at is the complete and utter lack of respect for anything. These folks have no concern over safety, the results of their behavior or their fellow wheeler.

Yea, closing stuff sucks but I am starting to understand why its happening. People leave trash on the trail, oil spills, run over stuff and in general have no concern about leaving the environment they are wheeling in as they found it. I'm getting real tired of being on the responsible side of the wheeling fence and have absolutely no desire to pick up trash left by others on the trails. Let them pick up their own trash and police their own behavior or else have their wheeling spot closed down.

How about some rules where rules can be made.

Maybe some comps already have these rules, I don't know.

-Spectator watching a jeep on the course throws trash on the ground, the competitor is met with some deduction. Additionally, competitor must get out of the jeep and go pick up the trash at the expense of time. If there is a dispute, all competitors get the deduction and/or the cash prizes are reduced.

-Fluid spills out of a comp jeep, deduction. Driver or spotter must clean up spill before proceeding on course.

-Tearing up the course to the point some level of maintenance is required results in a deduction. Competitor must lose time by making some appropriate maintanance to the trail before proceeding.

My point is not that comps are the problem. The leadership must start somewhere, however, and if rules like these in the comps don't already exist, maybe they should. Maybe we might see a trickle down effect to the knuckle-dragging mouth breathers that see no incentive to conserve their trails. If their only incentive is to be cool like the big comp jeeps, maybe emulating their behavior will change their actions a bit.

Not looking to be controversial here, just brainstorming and throwing out some ideas. I'm sure there are some better ones.

[Robert J. Yates]

I understand your point Rick but isn't that the equivalent to using condoms in porno movies to reflect proper sexual behavior?

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Rick Bernotas
How about some rules where rules can be made.

Maybe some comps already have these rules, I don't know.

-Spectator watching a jeep on the course throws trash on the ground, the competitor is met with some deduction. Additionally, competitor must get out of the jeep and go pick up the trash at the expense of time. If there is a dispute, all competitors get the deduction and/or the cash prizes are reduced.

-Fluid spills out of a comp jeep, deduction. Driver or spotter must clean up spill before proceeding on course.

-Tearing up the course to the point some level of maintenance is required results in a deduction. Competitor must lose time by making some appropriate maintanance to the trail before proceeding.

My point is not that comps are the problem. The leadership must start somewhere, however, and if rules like these in the comps don't already exist, maybe they should. Maybe we might see a trickle down effect to the knuckle-dragging mouth breathers that see no incentive to conserve their trails. If their only incentive is to be cool like the big comp jeeps, maybe emulating their behavior will change their actions a bit.

Not looking to be controversial here, just brainstorming and throwing out some ideas. I'm sure there are some better ones.

I understand perfectly where you are coming from. Unfortunately, I feel that your scenario is the equivalent of expecting Nascar fans to wear helmets on the street while driving.

I don't think folks make the connection. There are still those that will argue against airbags and seatbelts even when the evidence is overwhelming that your level of safety is dramatically increased by their use.

[BlueJeeper]

Then quit referring to them as people, yahoos, testosterone monkeys, or 4-wheelers, and refer to them as what they are, criminals.

If their behavior of destruction is not against the law on your trails, maybe it should be. Change the law.

If you see the behaviour, all of us have cameras I'm sure. Write down plate numbers. Report to the police. You will get called a tattle tale; if that is enough to deter you then jeeping wasn't that important to you anyways. Threatened with violence and harassment for telling, report to the police. See it on the internet, report it to police.

Same as the rest of the world. Where men and women could once govern themselves out of mutual respect, the larger populus now cannot out of ignorance of the condition of a failed society. Govern them, don't be governed by them. Again, if it's not worth the effort to you, then it wasn't that important in the first place. Give up.

Or suck it up and take care of the mess. You don't owe anyone jack for sharing the same trail or bulliten board. Everyone knows this but is too afraid to deal with it. If you can't change the villian to the good guy through rational conversation then the villian is a villian and not aligned with you. Working against you.

Now, as for the folks who cheap out on parts and make bad recommendations, there is a little bit of hypocrisy in all of us on that one and some more than others. Some folks just need to learn everything the hard way. If they want to learn that lesson let them, that's the only way they'll learn. Folks interested in learning the easy way will have the behaviour of knowing how to seek out and take good advice, or they will learn to develop it due to repeated failure.

Society is not a right it is a responsibility. If you want jeeping on your trails to survive you will do the work. If it is not that important to you, you have made your own self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Robert J. Yates]

Nice speech but off base - just because I happen to own and use a Jeep does not mean that I automatically signed up to be the trail police and frankly, I will quit the sport before assuming that mantle. I have already quit my volunteer work. Cleaning up the trash that others leave behind is getting us nowhere in keeping closures at bay nor in educating the morons leaving the trash. And why should it - they leave the trash and others pick it up just like their mommies - they have it made. The only part I agree with you on is calling these fawks criminals.

[BlueJeeper]

Robert,

I am saying exactly that. If you have other priorities that's all there is to it. I frankly don't disagree that it is a pain in the rear end to spend your recreation time babysitting, and submit that the motivation is not necessarily there for myself to play Jeep cop to any extreme level. My point being that if you or I or anyone else doesn't want to do that, this just becomes a bunch of griping that only serves to raise your blood pressure.

[Robert J. Yates]

OK, I'll stop griping - I need to get out anyways. This new job has kept me kooped up for to long and for where I am headed over July 4th, the probability of running into the yaahoo element or idiots from Virginia thinking they are better than everyone else , is very very slim. Vent mode:/off

[Stu Olson]

Robert,

You can stop by my place if you want to, for the 4th, but you can't bring the Jeep in the pool.

FYI....I got a SOFT TOP and it is ON the Jeep too!

Damn, that thing is LOUD! Glad I had ear plugs in the TJ for the ride home from Sedona.

[Robert J. Yates]

Thanx Stu but we (Kendra, me, Michael and his wife) are headed up to the eastern Sierras for a couple of days which is all I get off until the next holiday. Its only a 3 hour trip so it won't be a huge production and I can be home at a reasonable time on Monday. I do appreciate the offer to bake away poolside in 117 degrees though

So what possesed you to get a hardtop? How are you ensuring security for your electronics? I also hear you on the noise. I have a sailcloth top and it certainly isn't as quiet as my hardtop although folks swear that to be the case. Since I put in the cage, it also flaps a bit more for some odd reason. Still, its much easier to deal with than the hardtop which never spent a whole lot of time on my rig anyways which makes it a huge improvement over the windjammer, duster bikini combo my rig sported most of the time.

[Stu Olson]

My hard top is far from gone.

I obtained the soft top (less any mounting hardware) from a local Jeeper that goes to Moab with me each year. He had bought a sail cloth top about a year ago and had this one sucking up space on the shelf. He decided to donate it to a good cause.

A couple of weeks ago, I responded to an e-mail from a friend who lives in Sedona. She works for a Jeep tour company. They had purchased a couple of '04 Sports and had converted them over to "tour" vehicles. She sold the factory soft top but the Washington based buyer didn't want the hardware (shipping he did not wish to pay). So, I went to Sedona this past Saturday with the bikini on and the soft top in the back. We put everything together and I drove back with the soft top installed. Door surrounds and all that stuff. Cost me a tank of gas and I took her out for lunch.

So, that is how it all came to be. There are times when I want to run those trails that are not hard top friendly. Now I can do that but still have the protection offered by the soft top rather than be stuck with just the bikini.

[Robert J. Yates]

Heh, that hardtop hoist system you have employed looks familiar Can't beat a softop for a tank of gas and a lunch though. Good deal.

[JeepGal]

and back to topic...

While we were in Moab, some guy (not in our group) was completely disregarding the marked trail, and blazing his own.

I remember saying something on the CB to everyone about treading lightly, as we were all pretty much disgusted by his behaviour. Brian, I and a few others decided the appropriate action to take was to snap a few pictures of him (with his license plate in full view) and do the right thing. MINUTES later, this guy comes on our channel, BLASTING us that we can go right ahead and take pictures, as he was part of a "Rescue Team"...which would have been all fine and good...but he didnt tell us he was right away, and he was being a major ass. HE was giving US crap about doing the right thing!

Had we not seen the vehicle he was rescuing out in the distance, we would have taken pictures. He still didnt need to take the course he was taking. We'd all have been completely happy to pull aside for him, had he asked.

Some people, even in the right, are complete morons.

Tam

[Shades76cj5]

I think alot of the decline of sport has to do with the internet, television, and video games. False information is out there everywhere and there is not alot of people out there in the right places that combat such falsities. The trails that I wheel I have never once seen a Ranger from any branch of Public Lands Managing Agency. All of the ones I have called to get info from about legalities of running certain areas, Fire restriction info, Law enforcement info the only answer I get is try calling so and so or I really don't know. If there were more rangers about to enforce rules and regulations by imposing steep fines and harsh penalties it would make lots of people think twice about how they treat public lands. Another major problem I see is the excessive consumption of alchohol on the trail. I have no problem with someone having a beer or two, but too many who wheel get their courage out of a can. I have heard too many stories about so and so wouldn't try this, but after 4 or 5 more beers he was all ready to go. BS like this needs to stop and I believe it is everyones responsibility to make a diffrence. I also believe 4wd cluds/groups should get more involved with charitable organizations to help get some positive light reflected on them. For example our club works with the Women's and Children's Alliance to help victims of domestic violence. This is just my .02 worth.

[speaceman]

I don't think the sport now is any different that it was 5 or 10 or 15 years ago (speaking from my limited experience, of course).

If I had a guess, the difference is that more people now have access to the internet than 5 years ago and especially 10 years ago.

I remember when starting college, which was 1991, internet access consisted of an email program and if you wanted to chat you had to use ICQ or some such program and if you wanted to d/l something, it was via FTP. Most of the programs accessing the internet were pretty user unfriendly and took some amount of effort to use them.

I think that was the barrier to the crazies. Sure they were out there doing their thing, they just weren't talking about it on the internet is all.

By 1995, when I graduated, people were using Win 95, IE for web browsing, AOL, etc. Everything on the internet became much more accessable.

Now you get to read about all the exploits of the lamers because it takes them little effort to post.

I've seen it across the board in other hobbies I follow over the web. Any bbs web page is filled with absolute cretins since they can post so easily.

When the internet was harder to access, the bbs type sites were generally filled with people who felt the effort to talk about the hobby on the internet was worth it because they were genuinely interested in the hobby.

[DanB98TJ]

The 'net certainly has made it easier for people to get their story out - good or bad - but I've personally noticed a difference in how people behave on the trail.

I used to spend a lot of time in one particular area, and it used to be very nice - little or no trash, very few signs of people driving off the designated trails, etc. Within the space of about four or five years, the area really went downhill. A lot of the damage was due to motorcycles/quads, but 4X4s also were involved. The amount of trash deposited on the trails really increased - I could probably finance some Jeep mods if I recycled all the beer cans along the trail.

Don't even get me started on boozing it up on the trail....

[Darrell C]

Originally posted by DanB98TJ
The 'net certainly has made it easier for people to get their story out - good or bad - but I've personally noticed a difference in how people behave on the trail.

I used to spend a lot of time in one particular area, and it used to be very nice - little or no trash, very few signs of people driving off the designated trails, etc. Within the space of about four or five years, the area really went downhill. A lot of the damage was due to motorcycles/quads, but 4X4s also were involved. The amount of trash deposited on the trails really increased - I could probably finance some Jeep mods if I recycled all the beer cans along the trail.

Don't even get me started on boozing it up on the trail....

I'll echo Dan's statements. I've noticed the same trend myself.

FWIW, I agree with you Dan. Alcohol consumption and driving a vehicle don't go together, regardless of the terrain that passes under the wheels.

Regarding trash, I do pickup trash when I notice it. But I'll admit that my frustration level has been increasing over the years by having to pickup after others. Not sure if others have noticed this, but most of the trash I see is beverage containers, and most of those are adult beverages. Any correlation?

[mrblaine]

I strongly disagree with the concept that the 'net has just made it easier to hear about the stuff.

I contend that the easy information exchange of the 'net contributes greatly to the gatherings at the known party spots.

Take JV for example. I've been out there almost a hundred times and the closing of other areas has led to larger and larger gatherings out there and it progressively gets worse.

You can really tell the trails are getting some high traffic also.

Peruse the happenings at Little Sluice and the enormous headache Del has trying to just maintain some semblance of civility. A perceived majority of the folks at that area would just as soon fence it off to make it there very own version of some desert island where lawlessness abounds and hell to pay for any unknowing innocent that attempts rightful access.

[Robert J. Yates]

Now that we are back on topic - I'll share an example. TDS. I've been a number of times and typically, it has been low key and primarily made up of Jeepers and families. While there has been rowdyness and the ocassional medivac folks typically policed themselves and there wasn't much need for a huge police presence. This past year was completely different as it raised the bar to a new level of lawlessness. There was gunfire, quads, buggys and more folks than I ever could have imagined. It was no longer the TDS Jeep Safari. It was like the Glamis scene invaded TDS. The Sherriff's were out in force and I don't blame them, I saw some really stupid sh!t going on including one moron jumping his truck in camp. We all cheered when he finally got busted after nearly taking out someones' motorhome. I won't be going back and frankly, if that is the scene that they want out there, they should change the name of the event.

I don't know where these folks come from or where they have been but they seem to be mulitplying and that was my original point.

[Shades76cj5]

I have to admit, I have only been involved in this sport for about three and a half years. I am only 23. So I don't know alot about the land battles/closures that the rest of you do. What I do see is a lack of respect from my generation. An kid with a part time job can finance a quad or a dirt sled for 50 years. Then they see something on the net, such as TDS thread on pirate, since most of the members of that board are web wheelers they go hey there's gonna be this great party let's go.They live at home or off of mommy and daddy. Now before this statement offends anyone let me say I know this is not true for all kids my age, but the ones that are really responsible had to work for what they have like the rest of us even if mom and dad still helped them they still had to work. The crowd I am refering to is the kids that were given everything and have to work fro nothing. They have no responsibility. So all they do is drink, do drugs, and party. They tear stuff up because they have no comprehension of what it is they are doing. They go and duplicate what they see on tv and in magazines and video games. I know this is not an excuse but I bet if you asked any one of them what tread lightly was they would give you a blank stare or throw a beer can at you tell you to f*** off. I see and read about alot of behaviors on the trails that are unacceptable. I also know the problem isn't just kids either. I know there is the fair share of adults out there as well. I believe we should police our own groups. Those that do not and we see should be photographed and turned into the proper authorities. I have never had the pleasure of going to the Rubicon, JV, Glamis, or even Moab. I hope they are still open when I able to finally make it there. MHO.

[DanB98TJ]

Originally posted by mrblaine
I contend that the easy information exchange of the 'net contributes greatly to the gatherings at the known party spots.

Good point, and one I hadn't considered. A few of the local BBS/mail groups are a good example of that....

Another thing we've seen is that after a competetion event, a certain number of spectators decide they're going to run the "same" trails, only to pave them with rocks so their poorly equipped vehicles and minimal driving skills can make it, then they can say they ran the same trails that the comp crew did.

[Art Welch]

Originally posted by DanB98TJ
Another thing we've seen is that after a competetion event, a certain number of spectators decide they're going to run the "same" trails, only to pave them with rocks so their poorly equipped vehicles and minimal driving skills can make it, then they can say they ran the same trails that the comp crew did.

Did you talk to them about why it's important to unstack the rocks when they're done?