Manual trannys are useless......

[Mark Hinkley]

I want to drive a tank also! The one with the turbine engine and the auto tranny!!!!

Well this discussion has changed. It was a lot of campfire BS for a while between buddies. More sh!t was being tossed around than any true info. But it is funny how it always changes to this kind of thing.

Why isn't there this much passion when it comes to ANYTHING else discussed about Jeeps. Noone gets so defensive about their tires, motor size or even type of Jeep. Why is the tranny such a big deal? Some people like to drive their rigs and some just like to ride in them. That shouldn't stir up such hot passion, it just isn't natural. A guy should be able to make whatever choice he wants to about what tranny is in his Jeep, even if he gets stuck with an auto and doesn't have the money to change it out. I have two Jeeps now, yes I should be committed for it, one that I can drive (my XJ) and one that has an auto in it (my MJ). So no matter what you have as a tranny you really just need to commit yourself to just one thing: GO JEEPING AND HAVE SOME FUN WITH YOUR BUDDIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WARNING:

This post is FULL of SARCASM!


mark
orgs mfg

[Paradiddle]

Ron - come on now - this is all good natured.

I agree with Mark - it is funny how no other aspect of Jeeping seems to get everyone's panties in a wad like a transmission discussion.

And for you manual guys, just because you're a little slow grasping true trail performance and the importantance of having the right equipment doesn't mean us auto guys won't hang out with you. You can still bask in the glory of our knowledge and friendship

Jeff

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by TJRON
I think there is a lot of truth to the auto guys acting like any one with a manual is some kind of idiot.
Statements like:
"I would not trade for a manual anything. Period!"
"The manual is worthless. At the least it needs a 4:1 kit which is in the neighborhood of $900 just for the parts."

I will defend that statement I made until hell freezes over.

Let me say it once more. I would not trade for a manual anything.

Don't want one, don't need one, have no use for one, and if the choice came down to me going offroad in a manual or staying home, I would take up fingerpainting. That's the way I feel about it.

I never said or implied that that is the way anyone else should feel about it. I don't think you are an idiot for owning, using, driving, working on, or defending one. As I stated before, I think some of the less informed arguements are stupid.

And if anyone has ever kept track, my only comparisons have been between stock to stock trannies and the performance and ease of use differences.

It's pretty simple Ron, If you don't want one, don't get one. Once again, I think you are the last candidate in the world for one.

As far as looking down our noses or stirring it. You started this. I was just giving my opinion of a trade that I had a huge amount of time and effort invested in and felt obligated to point out the obvious in case it had been overlooked.

The bottom line is also "So What", I can look down my nose at anyone or anything I care to. That's my right. Why does that bother or affect you in the slightest? You make your choices, I make mine. Neither set of choices makes either one of us idiots. (in this context anyway)

We all have different parameters and criteria for spending money. You are a self declared cheap bastard and yet have no qualms about spending money on a low geared t-case. That seems ambiguous to me. I don't know that it makes you ambigous, it just seems that way to me.

Things like that often cause me to wonder. I have a friend who wears custom boots at over a 1000 a pair. Yet, he had another friend help him bootleg in a cable line to save 10 dollars a month.

[TJRON]

Originally posted by mrblaine

Don't want one, don't need one, have no use for one, and if the choice came down to me going offroad in a manual or staying home, I would take up fingerpainting. That's the way I feel about it.

[Paradiddle]

I'm just enjoying the visual of Blaine out in his backyard in white cotton pants, Yanni on the stereo, wicker sandals, with an easel and some paint...

AP Newswire:
This just in, famed California finger painter Blaine Johnson has sold his first painting "Footprints of MTR - 2003" to Sir Richard Head of Cambridge for $3M.

Next up in the new, the weather....

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by TJRON
I"The manual is worthless. At the least it needs a 4:1 kit which is in the neighborhood of $900 just for the parts."
WTF, not even a happy face!

You took my quote completely out of context. If you go back to that post, you will see where my take on what Chris wanted to do with swapping his ZJ for a TJ was go rockcrawling. My comment on the manual being worthless and needing a 4:1 was with regard to that specific type of wheeling.

You bought a 4:1 for your Ax15. I was there and helped you swap it around. I've also been wheeling with you and participated in conversations wher eyou have crabbed about the gearing of the stock manual. So are you now saying the 4:1 or equivelent is not needed with the Ax15 for the type of wheeling you do and that my statement is somehow incorrect? Frankly, your actions seem to prove me right.

Oh and yea, here is your smily

[Daddy Longlegs]

Seth,

Stu and yourself didn't sit upright for very long. You pretty much hooked up the line and then approached the obstacle and pulled yourself up. The ones I have seen lose engine pressure are those that put their tires up on the top first and then get the line pulled out and hooked up. I think its the longer period of idling at a steep incline that allows the pressure to drop. Either way my point was to show how well the AW4 did in that situation

So now that you've done a trip with some of us from AZ are you interested in meeting up in Parker sometime? There are some really great trails out there and it is just north of Lake Havasu on the CA-AZ border. It would be an equal drive for all of us. Let me know if you are interested. Stu, myself, and others have been tossing the idea around.

Regards,

Scott K

[sethmark]

I will pretty much drive that jeep anywhere within about 10 hours for wheelin'. I need a good plan to get me rollin' though.

But I'll be there.

[TJRON]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates

So are you now saying the 4:1 or equivelent is not needed with the Ax15 for the type of wheeling you do and that my statement is somehow incorrect? Frankly, your actions seem to prove me right.

Oh and yea, here is your smily

A manual is not worthless without a 4:1. I think I proved that in Johnson Valley, The Rubicon and every difficult trail in Moab including Upper Helldorado. The 4:1 sure makes it easier, safer and more fun. Actually the main reason I put the 4:1 in was because I got the complete transfer case for $800 with the heavy duty chain, AA SYE and Tom Wood drive shaft and a swap for a stocker.
I think it's a lot like you guys say about going over 32" tires. I only need it a couple percent of the time.

This is getting silly and obviously turning into pettiness. I plead guilty and swear I will never get riled up no matter how many negative comments are made about manual transmissions. If I haven't made my point by now I never will.

[TJRON]

Originally posted by sethmark
I will pretty much drive that jeep anywhere within about 10 hours for wheelin'. I need a good plan to get me rollin' though.

But I'll be there.

Can I go? Can I? Can I?
When? When? When?
You say the last week in February? OK

[Robert J. Yates]

I may be interested in a parker run as well. In fact, Jay has a house there and has wheeled quite a few of the trails and knows his way around so we could have a guide or at least some real world experience provided to us on the available trails.

[Bruce David]

I have a question...Does the auto transmission have a starvation problem in 'stock' form ?
And the cure is the addition of a deep sump pan ?

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Bruce David
I have a question...Does the auto transmission have a starvation problem in 'stock' form ?
And the cure is the addition of a deep sump pan ?

Some do, some don't. It's pretty hit and miss and I wonder if it's got more to do with the fill level at the time. I have seen one deep pan equipped tranny that was slightly underfilled cavitate.

I do wheel with a guy that has no cavitation issues in a TJ with the stock pan and hasn't cavitated it yet.

Your guess is as good as mine at this point.

I do know that the new 03 4 speed has a big issue with this and slightly overfilling them solves the problem for most.

[TJRON]

I've been on steep things in Moab where guys without deep pans would stop in there tracks. It seemed like all they had to do was wait a few seconds and they could go a little ways and then do it again until they got to the top. This usually discouraged any one else without a deep pan from trying it.
I never saw an auto with a deep pan have a problem any where on the steeps.

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by Bruce David
I have a question...Does the auto transmission have a starvation problem in 'stock' form ?
And the cure is the addition of a deep sump pan ?

Mine did. Sergeys' doesn't. All I know is that a $69 kit from DC solved my problems completely. Does that make my tranny non-stock? Technically but then again, this pan is in the standard parts catelog and is not considered a performance accessory so is it really a mod or just a response to jeep pinching pennies on manufacturing costs?

Personally, I would think that the work I had done to optimize my bands and shift points along with the relocation of the vent probably makes my tranny more non-stock than the deep pan

[mrblaine]

Not that it applies to anyone here, but I know of a few manual guys that wish they could solve all their clutch slipping problems for 69 dollars.

The guy at Menifee in the stock CJ comes to mind.

[Daddy Longlegs]

I've ran all of the above mentioned combos. Almost 3 years ago when I upgraded to 4.56 gears, 35s, and lockers I went on a rock run. I was dismally disappointed at the performance of the AX15 with the stock 2.72 tcase gearing. As a matter of fact I didn't bother to drive it again until I installed the Teralow a week or so later. I ran 32's and 3.73's prior to this and though its crawling capability was not great it still performed better than the above mentioned setup without the Teralow. I think it was the heavier tires that required me to put in the Teralow.

That being said I went everywhere I wanted to with the Ax15 and Teralow. But like I said earlier I just prefer the auto.

Scott K
99 TJ - 4.56, 37" MTR's, AW4.

[Bruce David]

I have another question..or 2.
Auxiliary transmission fluid coolers, I assume your running them.

Are they 'in-line' with the factory cooler or trans only.
And where do you locate them, in front of the radiator or under the hood ?

[TObject]

Larger pan serves as an auxiliary cooler of sorts.

Lowering temperature of the ATF would definitely help to reduce cavitation. I don't have any additional coolers, except for the deep pan, and I haven't felt the effects of cavitation (if it really happens in the transmission, which is debatable) before or after the pan install. I guess, I don't wheel hard enough.

[TObject]

I don't want anyone to feel like I am patronizing. But there is common misunderstanding that cavitation happens when transmission sucks air in. No. No. No. And no, once more. Cavitation happens when pressurized ATF enters the torque converter, it then may start boiling because of the lower local pressure and solid bodies moving through the liquid with high speed. When ATF boils, the vapor bubbles mix with the fluid.

Think of the bubbles or cavities that form around a submerged propeller ? same physics.

This issue was talked a little bit about in this thread:
http://www.jeepbbs.net/forums/showth...&threadid=2397

And of course, patronizing means talking to someone like they are dumb.

[Bruce David]

Sergey, Thanx for the link, lot 0 good info.

It sounds to me that the pick-up starts sucking a little bit of air,
then the converter cavities.

Does the deep pan come with a spacer for the filter/pick-up, to
keep it in the bottom of the pan ?

[TObject]

Originally posted by Bruce David
It sounds to me that the pick-up starts sucking a little bit of air,
then the converter cavities.

You are kidding, right?

No, that's not what happens. Air sucking from the pickup line practically has absolutely nothing to do with cavitation. It is utterly different issue.

Yes, the deep pan kit comes with the pickup extender...

[Bruce David]

No...I'm not kidding.........
I'm trying to understand what your calling cavitation .......

I know how a boat prop beats the air out of the water when it cavitates.

So the converter just cavitates and the 'air'/lack of fluid has nothing to do with ?

[TObject]

What I am talking about is that all of you are full of brownies and use wrong words to describe things.

It's driving me nuts.

Cavitation bubbles are near vacuum (well, they are the ATF vapor at very very low pressure, in our case). When these vacuum cavities collapse, ATF impacts on the blades inside the torque converter with a local pressure singularity - that is, a point with theoretically infinite velocity and pressure. Cavitation is a major source of damage, vibration, noise, and loss of performance. Torque converters usually incorporate special design elements that reduce or eliminate cavitation all together. That's why I said I was not sure we even have cavitation problem at all.

Contrary, the bubbles that formed by air sucked in are not vacuum, they are pretty much at atmospheric pressure or whatever local pressure is inside the transmission. These bubbles cause nowhere near the damage and troubles cavitation causes. Call it ventilation if you want. But if somebody calls sucking the air inside, "cavitation", once again, I will scream!

[TObject]

Please, take a look at this page:
http://cavity.ce.utexas.edu/

[mrblaine]

When I owned a boat and the prop cavitated, the forward motion of the boat decreased significantly. Under full acceleration attempting to get up on plane or up to planing speed, if the prop cavitated early on, the boat would cease forward motion from being driven by the prop and would only coast forward from the momentum.


Now I can't or don't know if cavitation is the proper word in that respect, that is just the way the guy that built the props for us explained it. If he was wrong, I am just passing on erroneous information.

[Jeeper]

Originally posted by mrblaine
When I owned a boat and the prop cavitated, the forward motion of the boat decreased significantly. Under full acceleration attempting to get up on plane or up to planing speed, if the prop cavitated early on, the boat would cease forward motion from being driven by the prop and would only coast forward from the momentum.


Now I can't or don't know if cavitation is the proper word in that respect, that is just the way the guy that built the props for us explained it. If he was wrong, I am just passing on erroneous information.

Yep, that's cavitation in the aquatic sense. My boat does the same thing if I do not have the trim down all the way at take off. Once it starts to plane out, the trim goes up but there can also be a point where you go a little too far and cavitation begins. There is definately a decrease in forward motion and an audible clue as well. that cavitation is caused by drawing air.

Jeeper

[Sephiroth]

if somebody calls sucking the air inside, "cavitation", once again, I will scream!


cavitation cavitation cavitation

[TObject]

I guess I am just mad at myself. Since July I've been trying to explain the difference between cavitation and sucking air in. I guess I am bad at explaining things.

Let me finish my participation in this thread with a poem.

And now I shut up.
Otherwise I'll get beaten.
And I'll never have a chance to accomplish my heroic act.

[Jeeper]

Originally posted by Don Palese
if somebody calls sucking the air inside, "cavitation", once again, I will scream!


cavitation cavitation cavitation

Scream! My reference to drawing air was an instance of propeller cavitation caused by having part of the blades out of the water (trim on the motor was too high for the plane I was travelling). That is one instance and one form of cavitation...blaine asked about boats.

There is also another form (still called cavitation) and relates to what you are talking about with the torque converter although my example is with a propeller. If the surface of the blades is not completely flat or there are manufacturing flaws in the design of the blade, the differences with create areas of high and low pressure. Water will have a lower boiling point because of this and create bubbles of air which of course burst.

Jeeper