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  #1  
Old 05-12-2002, 09:14 PM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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Lessons learned

I am by no means a Death Wobble expert, but I have solved many cases over the phone and the resultant feedback from the owners of these rigs has been most heartwarming.

Then William shows up with horrible DW. I do the usual and tell him that the first thing that has to be done is to remove the tires from the equation somehow.

He gets them balanced with zero effect on the frequency or severity of DW.

We did have several conversations about tripping over dollars to pick up pennies. This would be relative to spending budgeted monies on trivial items such as tire balancing.

So, we then proceed to the next step in a DW case, and that is to ascertain if any suspension components are worn, loose, or out of adjustment.

We replace the trackbar, steering stabilizer, draglink TRE at the pitman, steering box 2 times, have an alignment done. Set the caster as good as we can get it. Change the toe from positive to neutral to negative.

We check the steering column, intermediate shaft, intermediate shaft carrier bearing, and the final set of steering shaft u-joints. We have gone over the front end of this jeep with a fine tooth comb and were only able to slightly affect the frequency and severity of his DW.

I had lost all faith in my abilities to fix, diagnose, or even the desire to be near a jeep with DW. Absolutely nothing I did, tried, or touched on that jeep changed a thing. Totally frustrating.

Yesterday, we all pitch in and perform extraordinary amounts of mods to William's jeep to get him up on 35's.

New springs, new belly-up, hook up the ARB's, install an overhead console and wire in the switches, protect all the air lines, and send him on his way. Guess what? No more DW.

It was the crappy steel rims and the BFG's all along. He found this out on the way to my house on the new MT/R's on the new aluminum wheels. It made sense to drive up on them and do the lift. No offroading, so little danger of rubbing. All is well now and I still hate cheap steel rims.
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Old 05-12-2002, 09:35 PM
norcaljr norcaljr is offline
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Great write up....
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  #3  
Old 05-12-2002, 11:30 PM
Wumpy Wumpy is offline
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And thus goes the resale value for some 33x10.50 BFG ATKO's and AR 767 rockcrawler rims.

Both purchased under the assumption that they'd be less wear on the Jeep and still enough 33's to get me over the rocks.

A stearing box or two, a few different trackbars, bushing for swaybar links, and... enough aggrevation at times to make me want to give it all up.. and it's all tires. But you'd have to beat me over the head with them because despite all Blaine's recommendations.. I couldn't believe something so simple as tires would cause the problems...

Too bad they float because boat anchors are about all those tires are good for now.

I saved a couple of bucks on tires, and ended up spending it all in money fixing everythign else. I bought the tires as part of my lift - and got a "good deal on them". Thinking that tire balance wasn't much of deal. Past experience told me nothing of that sort of thing... and no one on the JU technical grounds evermentions how important it is.
But I learned a couple of lessons. Value of friends to be sure.
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Old 05-13-2002, 04:13 AM
Buz Steele Buz Steele is offline
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I too have suffered the DW plague. After installing a small 3" suspension lift, I was attacked by DW. In my case it turned out to be the tires. BFG-ATs that had been badly abused for 50K miles or so. I was running Ultra Alloy wheels at the time. I figured that since there is not a lip on the outside of these wheels, they could not be dynamically balanced and threrefore was most likely my problem. I have looked and many many pictures of folks running alloy wheels and have not seen very many with wheel weights on the outside. I had to try it anyway. I went back to the factory wheels, had them all balanced, and tread very carefully (no sharp turns or obstical climbing). Stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime. Finally, after parking my Jeep for a time, I bought new (cheap steel wheels) and new tires. DW is gone for now. It was the flat-spotted, out of round tires.

There is nothing like being half way home, going through Oklahoma City at 70 mph, and having a sudden attack of DW. I know what the folks around me thought when I hit the brakes and pulled off. Dumb ass Texan. Well, one has to stop when attacked with the dreaded DW.

I would like to hear some comments on not being able to balance, and in some cases not being able to do an alignment on wheels with no lip on the outside. My favorite alignment shop does not have the ability to do them. (Or will not)

William, I am glad it all worked out for you.

Blaine, I am glad you got your confidence back.

Buz
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  #5  
Old 05-13-2002, 06:01 AM
Scott Hill Scott Hill is offline
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Well after switching to alum. rims and MTR's I can now feel I have done driveline vibe not much but it is amazing how much bad steal rims can vibe.
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  #6  
Old 05-13-2002, 08:03 AM
TJRON TJRON is offline
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I couldn't believe something so simple as tires would cause the problems...

.....and no one on the JU technical grounds ever mentions how important it is.


William, that is just not true. Blaine and I and a zillion others usually mention it within the first 5 post as the first thing to check. I think several months ago I suggested you trade wheels with a friend to make "sure"........
You need to tell the moron that is balancing your tires that a check for bent rims is part of the balancing process.
Ron
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Old 05-13-2002, 08:08 AM
sethmark sethmark is offline
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MAN!! I'm so glad you guys finally figured it out. Having ridden with and driven behind William while he was having full on DW, I know how much headache its given him.

Funny though that when I drove around on William's tires and wheels, I thought they were SO smooth. Such the difference between vehicles...
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  #8  
Old 05-13-2002, 08:22 AM
TObject TObject is offline
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Now, another question is how to keep wheels and tires round. Last time balancing the tires I?ve been told that my super duper hot forged Alcoas were bent. I don?t know if I should believe the tire store, maybe they just wanted to sell me new rims...
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  #9  
Old 05-13-2002, 08:27 AM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TObject
Now, another question is how to keep wheels and tires round. Last time balancing the tires I?ve been told that my super duper hot forged Alcoas were bent. I don?t know if I should believe the tire store, maybe they just wanted to sell me new rims...
Sergey, the next time they tell you that, just have them dismount the tire from the rim and put the rim on the balancer. When they spin it up, you will be able to see if if wobbles side to side, or hops up and down.

Have them show you first. Nothing is impossible, they could be bent or not. I do think you have received very good service from the rims.
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  #10  
Old 05-13-2002, 09:11 AM
TJRON TJRON is offline
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Ignorant tire guys are plentifull in the industry. I don't know what they pay those guys, but most of them don't know squat.
I do most of my buisiness with Discount Tires and they are no better or worse than the others. When I got back from Moab I had a wobble and the first thing I did was take the Jeep to Discount to have a free balance. I was particularly concerned with my new cheap steel rims that had all taken hits in Moab.
At Discount I asked for the best guy they have and I wanted to talk to him before he did the work. I aked the guy (Donny) if he could do three things for me:
1. Take the time to rotate the tire on the rim to try and use as little weight as possible. A trick here is to use some chalk to mark the rim/tire and see if it is in the same place when done.
2. To use the inside sticky weights as the outside ones don't have a prayer. BTW, if I had previously had inside weights, I take the time to remove them and clean inside the rims. I have had guys just ignore the existing weights and add some to the other side!
3. Check for bent rims.
I then tip the guy $10 for taking the extra time. $10 isn't much but it is usually effective and it gets you recognized as the "demanding jerk that tips". Just tipping is not enough. You have to expain what you want every time (been there).
Two wheels were a little bent but the guy said they wouldn't effect me. I found my toe in was a bit "out" after changing a tie rod on the trail and useing my zerk to zerk measurement for adjustment.
All is now well until the next time!
I know it sounds like a PIA but I am particular about my tires and wheels not being in the picture when front end problems arise, as they usually do.
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  #11  
Old 05-13-2002, 12:40 PM
William William is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TJRON
I couldn't believe something so simple as tires would cause the problems...

.....and no one on the JU technical grounds ever mentions how important it is.


William, that is just not true. Blaine and I and a zillion others usually mention it within the first 5 post as the first thing to check. I think several months ago I suggested you trade wheels with a friend to make "sure"........
You need to tell the moron that is balancing your tires that a check for bent rims is part of the balancing process.
Ron
Typically Ron, that advice comes from a select few (aka those who know what they are talking about.. like you.. and Blaine.. and a few others)... I can give a history of it. I do remember you saying to try someone else's tires. But after getting a balance.. I think that I was giving up on that.

History:

In September, I did a 1 inch body lift, 1 inch motor mount lift, and replaced my lower control arms with new ones. I got death wobble immediately. I actually broke a stock control arm - no easy feat. But after several tries, I got the balance done (I was very reluctant). Nothing happened. Blaine took a look at it and found an extremely worn bushing on the stock front track bar. So that was replaced. Still death wobble. At one point, Blaine took me to his recommended shop and they balanced the tires and it limited the wobble, but didn't elminate it. Then the steering box was replaced... And then another alignment.. Still nothing. I replaced the front axle (yes, the axle) thinking may be the knuckles were bad. Had the alignment done (twice). Still nothing. We put an RE trackbar in it that was double hieme'd. Still not elminated. At this point, I was ready to throw in the towel.

So, by my counting, that is
3 balances
2 trackbars
3 steering boxes
2 alignments

And nothing. I had watched the last balanced and made sure they did a dynamic balance, and that after they balanced them we made sure it balanced to zero. Nothing.

But I've got a new moron to balance tires. It's kind of sad when William has to explain to Tireguy what a dynamic balance is.
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  #12  
Old 05-13-2002, 12:51 PM
TJRON TJRON is offline
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William,
Sounds like you did your best! Unfortunately you can balance bent rims and out of round tires all day long and it still won't be right! It sounds like you had multiple problems, all contributing. Very hard to analyze. Been there, done that.
Now that all is right, jump on the first thing indicating a problem. Jeeps can be such a PIA when you don't have unlimited time to tinker.
Some free advise: measure your tie rod from the zert to the zert on the drag link and write down the measurement. If you bend or break a tie rod you can get the toe "in the ball park" on the trail. Now, cut a stick that will just pass through the rear of the bulge on the rear part of your front tires. It should be a tight fit on the front part. You now have a toe stick that works pretty good if you use it on the same tires with the same pressure in them.
It works for me!
Ron
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  #13  
Old 05-13-2002, 02:56 PM
William William is offline
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Ron,

You can bet with this, the D44 fiasco, and a few other things.. I've learned to pay closer attention to things. I never thought to write down the measurements. It makes sense for sure.

I think Blaine is almost as relieved as me. A lot of stuff was fixed, but it was the tires in the first place. The good thing being, that nothing was replaced that was un needed.
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Old 05-13-2002, 03:20 PM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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Trust me William, I am far more relieved than you are. I racked my brain for weeks on end trying to figure out what I could have possibly overlooked.
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Old 05-13-2002, 03:26 PM
TObject TObject is offline
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Thumbs up

I?ll chime in.

I was afraid to post this, because I thought that blabbering about it would attract bad spirits or something and the problem would come back. My jeep rides very very nice; life without driveline vibrations is good!

I guess I can feel what William feels now.

Thank you to mrblaine and the rest of the gang who help to diagnose and cure problems no matter how persistent these quirks are.
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  #16  
Old 05-13-2002, 03:40 PM
sethmark sethmark is offline
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Speaking of which, I pulled out my urethane tranny mount for a new rubber stock one.

Christ what a difference in vibrations. So much smoother.
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  #17  
Old 05-13-2002, 03:48 PM
William William is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrblaine
Trust me William, I am far more relieved than you are. I racked my brain for weeks on end trying to figure out what I could have possibly overlooked.
I dunno Blaine, I'd have to argue you on this one only. You never rode over the coronado bridge with me... It was either deathwobble (next to a 2 foot divider that seperates you from 100 feet down to water) or 30mph on the ramp with everyone just about to run me down...

Today, I hit it at 60 with full confidence.

I'm beyond happy, I'm not sure how to say it.
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Old 05-13-2002, 03:52 PM
sethmark sethmark is offline
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Now that you mention it, willm, riding with you over the coronado bridge hopping away with no doors and 300' drop to the water was darn scary!
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Old 05-13-2002, 03:59 PM
William William is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sethmark
Now that you mention it, willm, riding with you over the coronado bridge hopping away with no doors and 300' drop to the water was darn scary!
To think, I did that everyday.
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Old 05-13-2002, 04:21 PM
Buz Steele Buz Steele is offline
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I don't think I eliminated the DW. I think I just masked it for now. Whether it returns or not, it will always linger in the back of my mind. My knuckles still turn white grasping the wheel when I change road surfaces or go on to a bridge.

I had the tire guys put the cheapo steel wheels on the banancer before they mounted the tires. They know I am a PIA. They should have given me the ten spot for putting up with them.

I scoured cyper space looking for answers to the problem and tried several very viable solutions. I now have a lot of new parts in the front. Like most, I changed tires last.
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Old 05-13-2002, 07:35 PM
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Congrats on the fix, William, Blaine.

Late to the party but if I may... The best safe recovery I've found is to get on the brakes and throttle at the same time. Brake very hard but modulate both to maintain speed. This seems to generate enough tension in the driveline, possibly changing angles, to effectively damp out the resonance. People behind you may gesticulate wildly & drop back but at least they're out of the way. Provides enough time to find a safe area and/or drop below the threshhold speed. This has helped me a few times. Hopefully, someone will remember & try it next time the bad dragon strikes.

Dave
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Old 05-13-2002, 07:49 PM
cbassett cbassett is offline
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I do the same trick as Dave, works ~90% of the time; brake moderately and floor it with the gas.
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Old 05-15-2002, 07:17 PM
Devildog Devildog is offline
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Does anyone have any experience with the Centramatic tire balancers (http://www.centramatic.com/)? I was planning on picking up a set soon if the price is right. My wheels are constantly throwing weights and I was thinking that this could prove to be a permanent solution to the problem - no more paying to get them balanced. As long as the wheels don't get bent up too bad, it looks like you could even take a few beatings and not have to worry about balancing. The way I interpret it, your wheel/tire could be up to 16 grams out of balance but it will automatically balance it. I think I got tipped off to this from a Rockcrawler.com review.
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Old 05-15-2002, 08:00 PM
Stu Olson Stu Olson is offline
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Devildog,

My buddy here in Phoenix was running them and he was pretty happy with their performance. He claims they did indeed help, especially on the way home from the trails! LOL (he would peel weights too)

He recently went with new tires and wheels and is not going to use them. He mentioned selling them. If you are interested, I can put him in touch with you.
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Old 05-15-2002, 08:04 PM
Devildog Devildog is offline
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Thanks Stu. I'd appreciate it if you could get me in touch with him. It may be a while until the hub conversion makes it to the top of my list so I'm still running 5 x 4.5. Thanks again.
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  #26  
Old 05-15-2002, 08:11 PM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Devildog
I'm still running 5 x 4.5. Thanks again.
Why would that change after the hub conversion?
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Old 05-15-2002, 08:26 PM
KevinF KevinF is offline
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Yeah, tire/wheels are USUALLY the culprit, unfortunately, and the most expensive things to have to change usually.

I have been running 6" of lift and 33" MT/Rs (18psi) on my ZJ for over a year now with NO death wobble EVER. I swapped to stock wheels and stock sized tires for a trip out to L.A. in December and got DW for the first time. All wheels were balanced, but the backspacing changed from 3.75" to whatever stock is...~5.0" or so. I fiddled with the toe-in several times and dropped pressure until it finally would ride without DWing on me.

I've never tried the power-brake method that Dave and Chris mentioned...I'll have to try that. I DO know that trying to accellerate out of it DOES NOT WORK for anything other than dying your shorts.
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Old 05-16-2002, 02:45 PM
Stu Olson Stu Olson is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Devildog
Does anyone have any experience with the Centramatic tire balancers (http://www.centramatic.com/)? I was planning on picking up a set soon if the price is right.
Drop Scott Kruize and e-mail at scottkruize@earthlink.net ...... he is the friend that was selling his wheel balancers.
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Old 05-16-2002, 05:38 PM
Devildog Devildog is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrblaine


Why would that change after the hub conversion?
Let me start by first saying that since I haven't seriously looked into it yet (hub conversion), I haven't done all of the research. I've just noticed that quite a few people that do the hub conversion also go to a 5 x 5.5 pattern. I know you can stay with 5 x 4.5, but I thought I'd throw that in to make sure his would work on my Jeep.
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Old 05-17-2002, 09:03 AM
Robert J. Yates Robert J. Yates is offline
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There is a fair group of us here that have pretty much exposed the myth of the 5 on 4.5 hub conversion as being weak. I am not sure of the exact count, but the 5 on 4.5 model hub conversion installed on several Jeeps here probably has at least 100 trips over the Hammers with an extremely low failure rate. If you are going to stay with 35's or smaller, there is no reason to swap to the 5 on 5.
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