Yet another Warn 5x4.5 conversion question

[SharkUSMC]

Sorry if this is a repost, I searched and couldn't find it addressed.

I had decided to do the conversion, with Warn inners and CTM's, as I've put my D30 into a sad state of affairs once already, and I'm likely to repeat as I'm not planning on changing my driving style/locations.

As such, I'm inclined to upgrade. As I've stated, I decided on the Warn conversion, instead of trying to swap in a D44 from a Waggy.

That being said, as I priced the materials, and was looking at right around $1315 for the conversion kit, warn inners, and CTM's, I guess I developed sticker shock.

I started thinking that I could build a pretty nice D44 for that kind of money, but in the back of my mind was the thought of all the folks here with their fabrication skills and knowledge that still chose to go the Warn conversion route.

If it isn't clear, I have no doubt as to the strength of the conversion and I think it's a great product, mostly my question is one of why you as an individual chose to go the Warn way, rather than Wag44.

Am I missing something patently obvious as to the benefits of the Warn kit over a Wag44? Is it because it's a bolt-in rather than a welding based solution, or is their more to it than that?

I've already invested a decent amount of money into the D30, with a Currie steering upgrade, and an Aussie locker, although currently I might have to replace the R&P, as I'm up to around 40 degrees of backlash after loosing the transfer case. I haven't yet dug into it.

I could always recoup some of my investment there through parts sales, but would like someone to give me a warm and fuzzy that this isn't a foolish investment over going the route of a Wag44.

If it is relevant to the discussion, my current setup is:

RE LA 4.5": 8.8 rear with ARB: Atlas II 4.3-1: AX-15: 4.0L: D30 with Aussie: 4.88's

I'm about to order new driveshafts as the Atlas is a new addition after breaking my old NP231.

I obviously want to make this decision before I pay out for new driveshafts, and end up needing to re-order. At $309 a pop, they cost too much to do it twice.

Thank you in advance for any and all help/information you care to share.

Links to other sources of information welcome as well.

Regards,

Shark

[John]

I kept the D30 for the clearance, same reason I opted not to do the 8.8" and went a route less travelled. I figure the less that's down there to get hung up on the easier it is on me.
So where are you located?

[Robert J. Yates]

You're in a tough situation as most of us upgraded our D30's over time and as such, the sticker shock wasn't so great. Only you can decide if you want to drop the coin on a D30 so I only have a few general observations for you.

1. You do not necessarily need CTM's - 760's will serve you just fine. I ran 297's in my front end for years before I went to the CTM's. My point is, you could save a few bucks here if your wallet is tight and always add the CTM's into the mix at a later date.

2. I would not personally ever run a Waggy low pinion axle in a TJ - to much fabrication effort is involved for an axle that will leave your front driveshaft even lower in the rocks. Yea the knuckles, tubes and ring gear are all somewhat beefier but its still a low pinion axle.

3. If you do not want to swing a custom HP 44, or HP9 and you are running 35's or smaller, stick with your D30. You can always swap the parts over to a HP30 at some later date if you want a bit more of an edge.

[Joe Dillard]

Here's a couple links with some info you may want to read when we did mine:

http://www.jeepbbs.net/forums/showth...hub+conversion

http://www.jeepbbs.net/forums/showth...hub+conversion

[DsrtJeeper]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
You're in a tough situation as most of us upgraded our D30's over time and as such, the sticker shock wasn't so great. Only you can decide if you want to drop the coin on a D30 so I only have a few general observations for you.

1. You do not necessarily need CTM's - 760's will serve you just fine. I ran 297's in my front end for years before I went to the CTM's. My point is, you could save a few bucks here if your wallet is tight and always add the CTM's into the mix at a later date.

Robert;
I'm glad to hear your opinion on the 760's. I have ordered Superior inners and outters for my 30 and Superior and the dealer both suggested the 760's. One guy reasoned that until I get the hub conversion; the 760's will be my fuse point instead of the R&P. Another commented about the difficulty of lubing the CTM's thus causing bushing wear on the joints. This confirms what my wheeling buddies have experienced with CTM's as well. The fit is so tight on the CTM's that it's very difficult for these guys to get any grease into the caps without totally disassembling the joint. That doesn't sound like very fun servicing to me.
Are we missing something here?

[kranky_kel]

Chalk me up for another that chose Superior inners and outers with the 760s rather than the Warn hub kit. I ordered my Superior axles earlier this week.

I do have a YJ, this choice of axles will be eliminating my vacuum disconnect. Driveline vibes aren't an issues with me as I have my front end all dial-ed in.

It was a tough decision on which setup to go with.

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by kranky_kel
Driveline vibes aren't an issues with me as I have my front end all dial-ed in.

What about after you give your front DS the barber pole treatment on a rock?

[John]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
What about after you give your front DS the barber pole treatment on a rock?

Unbolt it?

[kranky_kel]

What about after you give your front DS the barber pole treatment on a rock?

That will be a "whoops".

I understand the luxuries about the Warn kit and being able to unlock the hubs if I pucker up the driveline or bust a u-joint. That made my decision even harder. However, I will have to deal with that when (if) it happens. I generally wheel out here in the Nevada desert; I believe that the Superior setup will work the best for me.

Honestly, though the cash out lay was the deciding factor and I had to do something as I stretched the ears on my Dana axle. Right now, the bearing caps are held into the axle with tack welds.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by DsrtJeeper
Robert;
I'm glad to hear your opinion on the 760's. I have ordered Superior inners and outters for my 30 and Superior and the dealer both suggested the 760's. One guy reasoned that until I get the hub conversion; the 760's will be my fuse point instead of the R&P. Another commented about the difficulty of lubing the CTM's thus causing bushing wear on the joints. This confirms what my wheeling buddies have experienced with CTM's as well. The fit is so tight on the CTM's that it's very difficult for these guys to get any grease into the caps without totally disassembling the joint. That doesn't sound like very fun servicing to me.
Are we missing something here?

It's not that 760's are that much better than other standard u-joints, it's how a joint is broken that is the key here.

Rarely do you find a joint that fails in and of itself. If that were the case, when you examine the failure you would find the caps intact and a pair of broken pins on opposite sides of the trunnion. Instead, what you typically find is a missing cap, one pin broken, the opposite yoke distorted severely, and if driven on, a mangled mess.

This is all due to why the joint breaks. It breaks because the yokes distort and lose their ability to retain the caps. Under load, the cap walks out and lets the pin slam into the inner part of the yoke. That breaks off that pin and distorts the opposite side.

The reason 760/297's last longer and appear stronger is that the hardness of the alloy axle yokes that have been heat treated retains the caps much better and allows the full strength of the joint to be utilized.

On the CTM lube issue- just how much grease do you think it takes to fill a space about 3/4's of an inch tall and about 5 thousands in thickness?

Typically, it's about 1/4 of a pump on the grease gun. It you are still struggling, get a conventional grease fitting with the same metric thread, take out the flush fitting, use the other one to fill and swap them back when done.

[DsrtJeeper]

Originally posted by mrblaine
It's not that 760's are that much better than other standard u-joints, it's how a joint is broken that is the key here.

Rarely do you find a joint that fails in and of itself. If that were the case, when you examine the failure you would find the caps intact and a pair of broken pins on opposite sides of the trunnion. Instead, what you typically find is a missing cap, one pin broken, the opposite yoke distorted severely, and if driven on, a mangled mess.

This is all due to why the joint breaks. It breaks because the yokes distort and lose their ability to retain the caps. Under load, the cap walks out and lets the pin slam into the inner part of the yoke. That breaks off that pin and distorts the opposite side.

The reason 760/297's last longer and appear stronger is that the hardness of the alloy axle yokes that have been heat treated retains the caps much better and allows the full strength of the joint to be utilized.

On the CTM lube issue- just how much grease do you think it takes to fill a space about 3/4's of an inch tall and about 5 thousands in thickness?

Typically, it's about 1/4 of a pump on the grease gun. It you are still struggling, get a conventional grease fitting with the same metric thread, take out the flush fitting, use the other one to fill and swap them back when done.

Thanks Blaine.
OK...let me ask this: Why buy into stronger u-joints if you run strengthened yokes? (Examples within reason...)

Thanks for the optional lube idea. Wonder why that info isn't published more often?

About the amount of grease the cap holds...Duh! My buddies and I have a few smarts!

If the supplied grease fittings are getting grease to the caps; why do so many carry extra cap bushings for spares? I have watched rigs waste those bushings in a short amount of time on trail only rigs. As you know; we don't run much water or mud here. At the premium price paid; i'd expect the CTM's to last at least a year on a trail only rig. One of our guys has already switched to OX brand in hopes of a better solution.

I know you are friends with Jack and i'm mainly curious what you have learned from him. The CTM's seem to have a very high standing amongst the few complaints.

[Stu Olson]

Originally posted by DsrtJeeper

OK...let me ask this: Why buy into stronger u-joints if you run strengthened yokes? (Examples within reason...)

I realize you didn't ask me but I'll tell you my reason.

I would do it in hopes of finishing the start of a bullet proof axle setup, at least for my setup (with Warn hubs). The way I see it, Warn inner and outer alloy shafts and a heavy duty u-joint will hopefully make the easily replaceable small hub the weak link in the front drive line.

If I were not running hubs with the alloy shafts, I would probably leave the stock u-joint in place in hopes that it fuses before the ring and pinion.

Of course, there is no rule that dictates which scenario will be followed when a component fails, but the above is what I would be hoping for given the two different configs.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by DsrtJeeper
Thanks Blaine.
OK...let me ask this: Why buy into stronger u-joints if you run strengthened yokes? (Examples within reason...)

Thanks for the optional lube idea. Wonder why that info isn't published more often?

About the amount of grease the cap holds...Duh! My buddies and I have a few smarts!

If the supplied grease fittings are getting grease to the caps; why do so many carry extra cap bushings for spares? I have watched rigs waste those bushings in a short amount of time on trail only rigs. As you know; we don't run much water or mud here. At the premium price paid; i'd expect the CTM's to last at least a year on a trail only rig. One of our guys has already switched to OX brand in hopes of a better solution.

I know you are friends with Jack and i'm mainly curious what you have learned from him. The CTM's seem to have a very high standing amongst the few complaints.

Well, I'm gonna venture a guess that something is wrong. Even if I were not friends with Jack, my own experience with them is totally different. Running the same joint for several years, I say joint because I broke one, and have had none of the issues you speak of.

I do know that the original set of my CTM's is alive and well and that's over 2 full years.

Let's see, Sergey has his original set, Robert has his, mine is good, my second set is good, Yep, I'm gonna bet something is wrong in either the install, or Jack's tolerances. Given the thousands of these in hard use, my money is on install.

Now that I think about it a bit, I will also wager that everyone that is going through bushings is also got just enough yoke bind from badly adjusted steering stops to adversely affect the bushings and not enough to break the pins off. That's where my money is.

Next time you see one of these guys, don't say anything, just look at the yokes and see if there are little crescents imprinted in the deep part of the yoke between the two ears. Dollars to doughnut holes they exist.

As far as publishing the fitting info, I just picked that trick up from someone complaining about needle fittings in general and that was the solution offered.

edit- your buddy that switched to the ox joints because of bushing wear, jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. The leverage on the ox bushing is orders of magnitude higher than on Jack's. Simple physics dictates that his bushing wear will be at least 4 times greater with the ox joints.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by DsrtJeeper
Thanks Blaine.
OK...let me ask this: Why buy into stronger u-joints if you run strengthened yokes? (Examples within reason...)





At the premium price paid; i'd expect the CTM's to last at least a year on a trail only rig.

Why buy stonger joints? Because I can.

They are not a necessity until you start breaking the regular joints and the collateral damage to your expensive alloy axles becomes more than you can bear.

Your year time frame has no relevance until you run the same trails with regular u-joints and the breakage is too high.

It's difficult to pin a time frame on something without knowing the use/abuse it's subjected to.

If it lasts one event in a comp environment, that's two days compared to someone who bought them and only runs service roads and has done so for 3 years. The length of time has no bearing on the service life if you don't qualify it with the level of difficulty.

[Robert J. Yates]

CTM's are a tight fit and can be a PITA to install for sure. I ended up making a drive down to Jacks' one night for some expert advice.

My experience is that they like to bind up when you install them and there are a few tricks to preventing that - first one is not to use a press but rather a brass hammer so as to not force them into the yokes. I had one pretty fubar'd up due to using a press and Jack ended up giving me a new set of caps.

[DsrtJeeper]

Blaine;
I'll check into those yokes as somehow I can picture these guys overlooking such an important detail on trail only rigs.

Superior even told me about the added leverage the Ox joints are under. You passed the test.

My main comparison was the same rig which had been switched from old Spicer joints to new CTM's last year. The Spicers actually lasted longer as the rig remained the same other than tire size. He went from 39's to a different brand, 37" BFG Krawler. He actually went smaller! The Krawlers definately have more grip though which could account for some added stress. His Spicer u-joints lasted a few years on his Chevy Dana 44 front. (He uses full size hubs with fuses; so if anything breaks; it's the hubs.) I realize this isn't very scientific, but the CTM's didn't make it a year. Only the bushings wore on them though.

Robert;
You aren't kidding about them being hard to install! Not fun on the trail at all.

[DsrtJeeper]

Originally posted by Stu Olson
I realize you didn't ask me but I'll tell you my reason.

I would do it in hopes of finishing the start of a bullet proof axle setup, at least for my setup (with Warn hubs). The way I see it, Warn inner and outer alloy shafts and a heavy duty u-joint will hopefully make the easily replaceable small hub the weak link in the front drive line.

If I were not running hubs with the alloy shafts, I would probably leave the stock u-joint in place in hopes that it fuses before the ring and pinion.

Of course, there is no rule that dictates which scenario will be followed when a component fails, but the above is what I would be hoping for given the two different configs.

Agreed Stu. I currently am saving up for the hub conversion. Hopefully it doesn't take Superior 3 months to get the shafts to me.

[Darrell C]

Originally posted by Stu Olson
If I were not running hubs with the alloy shafts, I would probably leave the stock u-joint in place in hopes that it fuses before the ring and pinion.

That's what I'm running (CroMo inners and outers with stock unit bearings and 760 series joints) and that's the reason I set them up that way. No hub coversion...at least not yet.

[Darrell C]

Originally posted by mrblaine
Now that I think about it a bit, I will also wager that everyone that is going through bushings is also got just enough yoke bind from badly adjusted steering stops to adversely affect the bushings and not enough to break the pins off. That's where my money is.

Next time you see one of these guys, don't say anything, just look at the yokes and see if there are little crescents imprinted in the deep part of the yoke between the two ears. Dollars to doughnut holes they exist.

Hum, that got me thinking.

I noticed those kind of marks after my first trail run after installing the Superior inners and outers with 760 joints.

Didn't get the marks with stock axles, and I haven't touched the steering stop adjustments. The marks are very minor, but they are present.

Sounds like I should back my steering stops out some?

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Darrell C
Hum, that got me thinking.

I noticed those kind of marks after my first trail run after installing the Superior inners and outers with 760 joints.

Didn't get the marks with stock axles, and I haven't touched the steering stop adjustments. The marks are very minor, but they are present.

Sounds like I should back my steering stops out some?

Bear in mind that you are forcing heat treated alloy into heat treated alloy, how big the mark is has nothing to do with the amount of force you are putting the pins under. That stuff is hard and difficult to dent.

You have two choices, back out your steering stops, or, take a good die grinder, some ball stones and clearance that area deeper. Mark it with a black magic marker, run the yoke into it by hand, remove the mark. Repeat until you can go from lock to lock with no marks.

The clearancing is the preferred method as we need all the steering angularity we can get on trail.

[DsrtJeeper]

Originally posted by mrblaine
Bear in mind that you are forcing heat treated alloy into heat treated alloy, how big the mark is has nothing to do with the amount of force you are putting the pins under. That stuff is hard and difficult to dent.

You have two choices, back out your steering stops, or, take a good die grinder, some ball stones and clearance that area deeper. Mark it with a black magic marker, run the yoke into it by hand, remove the mark. Repeat until you can go from lock to lock with no marks.

The clearancing is the preferred method as we need all the steering angularity we can get on trail.

Not to seem negative, but the only problem I see with clearancing is warranty of the shaft.

I wonder why the clearancing isn't figured into the original forging? Superior pushes the 760 joints as it is....

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by DsrtJeeper
Not to seem negative, but the only problem I see with clearancing is warranty of the shaft.

I wonder why the clearancing isn't figured into the original forging? Superior pushes the 760 joints as it is....

You pays your money and takes your chances.

In normal steering, the clearance is not an issue. It's only when we like just a tad bit more that we run into problems.

Mine are clearanced, as is just about every competitor I know and it's never contributed to breakage that is obvious. Typically the u-joint goes and the yokes wind up distorted or broken.

[Darrell C]

Originally posted by mrblaine
Bear in mind that you are forcing heat treated alloy into heat treated alloy, how big the mark is has nothing to do with the amount of force you are putting the pins under. That stuff is hard and difficult to dent.

You have two choices, back out your steering stops, or, take a good die grinder, some ball stones and clearance that area deeper. Mark it with a black magic marker, run the yoke into it by hand, remove the mark. Repeat until you can go from lock to lock with no marks.

The clearancing is the preferred method as we need all the steering angularity we can get on trail.

Thanks, Blaine.

I'll do a quick fix of adjusting the steering stops as a temporary measure. Don't want to place any more stress on the joint pins than I already have.

I'll clearance that area as a more permanent solution. I agree with the need for a tight turning radius. My regular trail (Niagra Rim) is pretty tight in places. Even a TJ needs to two-point a couple spots.

[ausjeep]

Just wanted to see what the consensus was on welding the 297x u-joint caps to the stock axles to keep them from spinning.

Is there any merit to this approach?
Poor mans ctm

[kranky_kel]

I welded the caps on my driver's side just for a temporary emergency fix. I did go wheeling on it yesterday. It held up, but there was a lot of cracking and popping noises coming from that side and none of the welds are cracked.

It probably works fine for some, but it does not give me the warm fuzzy feeling.

[ausjeep]

Originally posted by kranky_kel
I welded the caps on my driver's side just for a temporary emergency fix. I did go wheeling on it yesterday. It held up, but there was a lot of cracking and popping noises coming from that side and none of the welds are cracked.

It probably works fine for some, but it does not give me the warm fuzzy feeling.

I don't mean as a fix.
I fitted some second hand axles with new 297x unis when my ones broke last time and then welded the caps as soon as they were installed.

Basically there is no way any of the caps can turn at all.

It is a cheap ass solution but as I expect to break more axles I wasn't too worried about trying it out