Finally reached a pinnacle

[mrblaine]

With Kat's brakes referenced here- http://www.jeepbbs.net/forums/showth...threadid=11847

Our pad testing has shown us a few things we didn't know, a few we did and as a result, I swapped on a set of pads this afternoon that make her jeep's brakes (at least in the front) nearly perfect or as perfect as I can make them anyway.

I can't think of anything to improve. Pedal feel is phenomenal. As in, think of how you would like a brake pedal to feel and that's how it is.

It's high, as soon as you lightly press it, you feel the brakes work.

The pedal is easy to modulate. You can take it about a third of the way through it's travel and hold the 35" All Terrains at threshold braking with minimal pedal effort.

There is not the slightest bit of over sensitivity, the response from the brakes is linear, and predictable with dead straight stops.

Finally, brakes on a jeep that need absolutely zero improvement. It has sure taken awhile and a lot of time invested by Van, Kat, Lawrence, and me.

[Lawrence]

I have to say that Blaine has found the Holy Grail of Jeep brakes. Although I don't have Katherine's brakes (I have Van's big brakes) those latest pads are the bomb.

We have gone through a lot of pads, some truly crappy ones and some very good ones. In all this testing, there was a set that I really liked and performed very well. I put close to 2K miles on it, and even my wife made a comment as to how good the brakes were. Mind you she cares about brake pads as much as Blaine cares about SilverXJ Throughout all this testing, I thought they were the best and the ones I would eventually like to run. I was wrong, Blaine reached into his bag of tricks and pulled this 12th set. They blow anything else out of the water. Even on their first stop when cold, they easily outperform others when warm. Like Blaine said, the pedal feel is outsanding and their response is very, very predictive.

The only downside to having such good brakes, is the fear of being rear ended. My Jeep brakes so well that people behind me are caught by surprise. Today, coming home, a Mini Cooper S came close to being in my back seat as he didn't realize I could brake that fast. Fun times.

Now, since Blaine has found a way to have near perfect front brakes on a TJ, he can concentrate on the rear ones

[Kiwi]

Congratulations, so what are you going to do now?

[speaceman]

How'd or where'd you run across this holy grail of brake pads blaine?

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Kiwi
Congratulations, so what are you going to do now?

I've got the 15" kits in the bag.

I've got the 16" kits in the bag.

Now I just have to finish up the two kits for the 5.5 hub conversion and I'm done with TJ brakes unless I decide to build a monster set that fits into 17" rims.

Looking at JK brakes next.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by speaceman
How'd or where'd you run across this holy grail of brake pads blaine?

Research, rumor, internet, many hours of testing. Just basic hard work.

Sifting the rat crap out of the coffee grounds in a nutshell. I've got 12 boxes of pads behind me that Van bought for us to test. They all have nearly the exact same wording on the labels.

"Stops better than anything else with low dust and zero noise."

Only 3 of them are worth owning. These are one of the three.

[Joe Dillard]

Hats off to you Blaine, and the other folks who've helped along the way.

[blkTJ]

when do we get to know which pads to buy?

[Paradiddle]

Originally posted by blkTJ
when do we get to know which pads to buy?

When you buy the brake kit from Van!

[1BLKJP]

Any results yet with them keeping 37's stopped on the trail with 4.88's or 5.13's and a 4:1?

[speaceman]

I've never understood how if someone like Blaine can fiddle with off the shelf parts and come up (eventually) with a brake system that is far superior than the stock system, why the manufacturer with all it's engineers and research can't do the same?

I mean, jeep brakes have generally been pretty poopy, from the factory, even running stock tires and equipment.

So can't Chrysler hire a doppleganger Mr. Blaine and have them figure out how to make whichever individual components or systems that are lacking as nice as possible?

Or is it just a matter of "good enough" and the bean counters being involved in the overall scheme of things?

[VancoPBS]

The original factories make brakes for vehicles that come off their line. Then we go ahead and add 1000 things to them to make them a totally different vehicle over and beyond what the original engineers had in mind.

Bleh, who we kidding. D30/44 brakes have always been a joke.

But if you think Blaine and I concentrated on only off the shelf products you're dreaming.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by speaceman
I've never understood how if someone like Blaine can fiddle with off the shelf parts and come up (eventually) with a brake system that is far superior than the stock system, why the manufacturer with all it's engineers and research can't do the same?

I mean, jeep brakes have generally been pretty poopy, from the factory, even running stock tires and equipment.

So can't Chrysler hire a doppleganger Mr. Blaine and have them figure out how to make whichever individual components or systems that are lacking as nice as possible?

Or is it just a matter of "good enough" and the bean counters being involved in the overall scheme of things?

Shalom, I'm a hack. I only succeed slightly through sheer persistence and luck and way to many hours of trial and error. There's little to no engineering involved. My point is, there are guys who are engineers at brake companies who know what they are doing. (I've spoken to them a bit here and there)

They can calculate the brake torque needed to stop a vehicle travelling at a given rate and size the components accordingly.

I can't do that.

As far as stock goes. The stock brakes work fine. They don't need much improvement. It's only when you ask them to perform under the added stress of larger tires and heavier rims with much higher weights on the vehicle that they start to suffer.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by 1BLKJP
Any results yet with them keeping 37's stopped on the trail with 4.88's or 5.13's and a 4:1?

No, but if I were to speculate, I would venture a guess with how high the pedal is, that it's not a problem.

I base that on the fact that the first cold stop from these pads is better than the hot stop of any of the rest we tested.

There cold grab is comparatively astounding.

[SavageSun4x4]

Can I add your "pads" to my brake setup and expect better braking of any degree?

I guess I mssed it, but whose pads are they?

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by SavageSun4x4
Can I add your "pads" to my brake setup and expect better braking of any degree?

I guess I mssed it, but whose pads are they?

The qualified answer is yes. It will depend on availability for your application and whether or not you are able to nail the initial bedding process.

I am the best I know at bedding pads and I struggle with these, although I am getting a process defined that we will write up and offer to customers and users.

The included directions state to just be gentle with them for the first 100 miles. I have yet to find a way to quantify that into reality.

Someone that lives in the city will stop a couple of hundred times in the first 100 miles and Lawrence will stop 4 times by the time he gets home. Makes no sense to me.

[speaceman]

I don't know the process you guys went through to get the brakes you've ended up with. I didn't mean to disparage by saying "off the shelf parts".

I've just never understood why certain car manufacturers don't take more active steps to correct marginal systems in their vehicles.

You guys coming up with this better brake system only illustrated my point that it can be done so why can't a manufacturer with more resources do it?

Jeep brakes, (stock as I don't think it's fair to blame them for poor stopping when larger tires and such are thrown on a jeep) have never been anything but passable.

They work, but the pedal feel has always been off and they would fade and get spongy after just a bit of hard use (down hill grades, or a couple of hard stops in stop and go traffic).

I wonder if it's the dealership/parts stocking issues that cause a manufacturer to just leave things the way they are.

Why swap parts around (even pads) outside of a model change year, even if it would help things, because then you'd have to keep track of two sets of parts in your supply system?

[blkTJ]

Originally posted by Paradiddle
When you buy the brake kit from Van!

what am I supposed to do with the second kit?

[TObject]

Originally posted by blkTJ
what am I supposed to do with the second kit?

Sell it on eBay or keep as a spare.

[heep]

Originally posted by Paradiddle
When you buy the brake kit from Van!

What about us poor old CJ owners that would really like a better brake. i know that I could get the hydroboost, and probably will, but until I can scrape together enough cash let the cat out of the bag about these outstanding pads.....Please

Well with my luck, it probably won't make a difference because the CJ is a different animal

Thanks..

[Macgyver]

Originally posted by mrblaine
I've got the 15" kits in the bag.

I've got the 16" kits in the bag.

Now I just have to finish up the two kits for the 5.5 hub conversion and I'm done with TJ brakes unless I decide to build a monster set that fits into 17" rims.

Looking at JK brakes next.

I know someone with a JK and 35" tires

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Macgyver
I know someone with a JK and 35" tires

And I know someone that can build better brakes for it. Now what?

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by speaceman
I don't know the process you guys went through to get the brakes you've ended up with. I didn't mean to disparage by saying "off the shelf parts".

I've just never understood why certain car manufacturers don't take more active steps to correct marginal systems in their vehicles.

You guys coming up with this better brake system only illustrated my point that it can be done so why can't a manufacturer with more resources do it?

Jeep brakes, (stock as I don't think it's fair to blame them for poor stopping when larger tires and such are thrown on a jeep) have never been anything but passable.

They work, but the pedal feel has always been off and they would fade and get spongy after just a bit of hard use (down hill grades, or a couple of hard stops in stop and go traffic).

I wonder if it's the dealership/parts stocking issues that cause a manufacturer to just leave things the way they are.

Why swap parts around (even pads) outside of a model change year, even if it would help things, because then you'd have to keep track of two sets of parts in your supply system?

You're spot on Shalom with your assessment of the brakes. Unfortunately most jeep owners aren't discerning enough to justify the expenditure necessary to fix it or they don't care to.

I put Van's brakes on the stock 04 just to keep up with Kat's brakes on her rig. Pedal feel is vastly improved as is the stopping ability.

[Lawrence]

Originally posted by speaceman

I've just never understood why certain car manufacturers don't take more active steps to correct marginal systems in their vehicles.

I know we?d like to think that we fall into the DC core consumer group, but the truth may be that we are far from it. DC sells a lot of wranglers and a lot of them are not being altered or very lightly. Most people buy them because they are cool and hip, some lease them, and some are sold to rental companies. I am willing to bet money that most people don?t keep their TJs long enough to even worry about the brakes. So, in DCs eyes, the stock brakes are perfectly fine for a stock TJ.

To further complicate the brake issue, most people who mod their Jeeps and frequent the boards (read JF and the like) don?t believe in brakes, as it was evident when Blaine first asked who might be interested in a brake upgrade over a year ago. A bazillion people gave their 2 cents and said they would buy one, only a few actually did. Those same people add several hundred lbs to their rig and replace just about everything that can be replaced (unless it is brakes), and then wonder why (but will never admit) their brakes suck. Blaine actually had the perfect post on JU regarding this phenomenon:

?If you line up 100 rigs on 35's the following will be true.

85 will deny they need an improvement in braking.

10 of them will admit they need an improvement and readily admit they would rather spend the money elsewhere.

2 of them will admit they need better brakes and buy Van's kit.

2 of them will admit they need better brakes but are waiting until all the testing is done so they get the latest and greatest, not realizing that the testing will never stop.

1 of them will actually be telling the truth for some strange reason that no one can fathom or figure out.?

So, if the people who mod their rig can?t even admit or care that they need better brakes, why should the guy who leased his, or even the rental company? Why would DC offer better brakes, when people will line up to buy chrome tube bumpers, flower-power seat covers, or a set of Mopar fuzzy dice?

It is all about making money and DC, just like most consumers, doesn?t think the answer lies in the brakes.

I guess we have to be happy that we have people like Blaine and Van.

[mrblaine]

Alright, here we go. The latest magic bullet in brake pad technology is made by a company called EBC brakes.

I just finished installing and breaking in a set on our 37" tire test rig and he was astounded that you could get that much difference from just a set of pads.

I will warn you now, they are expensive, finicky to break in and if you aren't used to bedding in brakes, then don't buy them.

I highly recommend you start with new quality rotors as well.

The version you want from EBC is their 7000 series Green Pad for SUV's.

[Jerry Bransford]

Impressive amount of work that produced great results Blaine, is that EBC pad part # DP71308?

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Jerry Bransford
Impressive amount of work that produced great results Blaine, is that EBC pad part # DP71308?

Nope, it's the DP71199.

edit- Why are you looking at pads for an Excursion?

[Jerry Bransford]

Originally posted by mrblaine
Nope, it's the DP71199.

Thanks Blaine, logged in the book.

[Macgyver]

Originally posted by mrblaine
And I know someone that can build better brakes for it. Now what?

I guess I need to take a drive down south one of these days.......

BTW, the JK brakes are not as bad as the TJ brakes were, but with 35" tires and being that it weighs in at 5,050 empty as it sits, it could use some more brakes

[blkTJ]

Originally posted by mrblaine
Alright, here we go. The latest magic bullet in brake pad technology is made by a company called EBC brakes.

I just finished installing and breaking in a set on our 37" tire test rig and he was astounded that you could get that much difference from just a set of pads.

I will warn you now, they are expensive, finicky to break in and if you aren't used to bedding in brakes, then don't buy them.

I highly recommend you start with new quality rotors as well.

The version you want from EBC is their 7000 series Green Pad for SUV's.

thanks.