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#31
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Hi folks,
First my apologies. I should have had this data in a format ready to go when I started this post. I have no excuses even though the volume of data I have is immense. When you run three tests, (Idle, Stop and Go and Highway), four time each for before the louvers and after the louvers, using 48 temperatures sensors each taking and recording a reading every 3 seconds you end up with more then a quarter of a million data elements. Needless to say these data elements are organized, yet it has been a challenge to get this data in a format that I can easily explain. Here is my attempt. . . . Temperature Performance Reporting As I mentioned, I ran each of the three tests (Idle, Stop and Go, Highway), with and without louvers, four times, with and without the louvers installed. Rather then report an average of how each setup did for all four testing cycles I have elected to report this data in the following way. . . I have chosen to use the test data from the ?Pre-Louver Testing? that reflexes the absolute Best Performance (lowest air temp readings) of the four test cycles. . In other words, the data I am showing in the chart below reflects the LOWEST Temperature Recording for one of the four tests cycles I performed, Without the Louvers. . . 2. Likewise, I have chosen the absolute Worst Performance (highest temp readings), of the four test cycles With the Louvers Installed. . .This means the Louver Temperature numbers are the HIGHEST temperatures recorded from one of the four test cycles, With the Louvers Installed. . . I feel that comparing the Best Performance Without the Louvers to the Worst Performance With the louvers will present a pretty good picture of what you can expect if you where to do the same implementation on your TJ. . . . Temperature Performance Results This chart illustrates two major points of each of the three tests, comparing the air temperature performance before and after the louvers were installed. . . High Temperature The HIGH temperature indicates the absolute highest temperature recorded on ANY of the 48 sensors at ANY time during the test. Please understand this is one temperature at one moment in time, the single highest under hood air temp recorded during the test. For example; During the Idle Test, before the louvers where installed, the highest under hood air temperature recorded on any of the 48 sensors was 267 degrees F. The Highest temperature recorded on any of the 48 sensors during the Stop and Go test after the louvers were installed was 227 degrees F. . . Average Temperatures The Average Temperature is the average of ALL temperatures recorded by ALL 48 Sensors (ever 3 seconds) during the full duration of the test. The Average Temperature is illustrated with a red line on each vertical bar. For example; The Idle Test was conducted over a 15 minute period of time, using 48 sensors, each recording a temperature every 3 seconds. This creates 14,400-temperature reading which are used to generate this average. The intent is to give a fairly good picture of the general under hood air temperatures relative to having louvers or no louvers installed. The YELLOW bars represent the test data captured BEFORE the louvers where installed. Likewise, the BLUE bars reflect the test data captured AFTER the louver where installed. . . Analysis As you would expect, across the board, the under hood air temperatures are consistently lower with the louvers installed. . . High Temperatures High Temperatures came in as follows. Idle Air Temps were - 23 degrees cooler Stop and Go Air Temp were - 35 degrees cooler Highway Air Temps were ?27 degrees cooler When the Louvers are installed. . . Average Temperatures Idle was - 11 degrees cooler Stop and Go ?16 degrees cooler Highway was ?27 degrees cooler When the Louvers are installed. . . . Under Hood Temperature Patterns I did not want to just post the above number and present that as a complete picture or understanding as to what is going on, air temperature wise under the hood with and without the louvers. I wanted to present another view of the data I have. If you remember, there are 48 sensors, each taking a reading every three seconds during the life cycle of each test. In the chart below I am illustrating How Many of the 48 sensors Recorded a Temperature ABOVE 200 degrees F more then 50% of the time. In other words, each of the 48 sensors during the Idle Test recorded 300 readings. If 151 or more of the 300 readings were Above 200 F then that sensor is shown Above the Bar in the Chart. If 150 or more of the 300 readings were Under 200 F then that sensor is shown Below the Bar in the Chart. . . . . . Not only are the under hood air temperatures lower with the louvers then without them, but I believe the heat distribution under the hood is far better with the Louvers; Less hot spots! I do plan to do another chart like which will reflect a higher percentage. In other words, how many sensors recorded temperatures above 200 degrees F more then 75% of the time. This effort will have to wait till later. Other Thoughts Across the board, the under hood air temperatures on my TJ have been reduced. The greatest benefit appears to come at highway speeds. This is probably happening as a result of an increased volume of air coming through the radiator and an increased vacuum on top of the hood louvers cause by the higher speed. I do not know this as fact, but logic and physics leads me to believe this. My friend William has given me an idea that I wish to pass along. I would imagine the under hood air temperatures could be reduced farther, especially during idle and stop and go travel simply by mounting two pancake fans on the underside of the louvers or drip pans. Given the drip pan are so inexpensive I may pick up an extra set and try this to measure the results. I already have a plan for these louvers and drip pans. Blaine and I have been doing a fair amount of research and experimenting with Evaporative Cooling. I intend to build an emergency cooler for both my power steering and engine oil when we get the bugs worked out. . These cooler will be mounted under the vents and will have both fans and an evaporative cooling element in the design. You?d be amazed how much cooling can happen with a small mist of water, but that?s for another Auxiliary Cooling Topic. . . I hope I was able to explain accurately and in a way that is understandable and valuable what I am reporting here. If not please let me know and I will take another shot at it. Have a great day folks. Frank |
#32
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Water Flow / Drainage
I have received a few questions about what would be the effects of water flowing through these louvers. In truth I do not know, but I do not believe there will be a problem on my Jeep. You would have to make your own decision on this. If you take the time to waterproof your under hood electrical connectors I don?t think you would have a problem at all. If you care to read how to do this I did a write-up a while back. You can pull it down from my very simple web site at http://home.att.net/~email.id/wsb/ht...ome.html-.html Or you can take a look at a forum thread here http://www.jeepbbs.net/forums/showth...oof+Electrical I wanted to take a few pictures of my engine compartment to show where the louvers actually fall. This was easier said then done. Finally I came up with the idea to just place the template I used to cut the holes in the hood exactly where the louvers fall. Here is a picture of the driver?s side. As you can see there isn?t much for any rainwater to cause problems with. The passenger side is a bit different. Things are closer. My battery is a sealed cell battery so I have no worries about water on it. The Power Distribution center is sealed with a gasket that I made a long time ago, and the Computer is both covered with the plastic cover and waterproofed using the technique I descried in the previous write-up. Here is a picture. My engine compartment is stuffed to say the least. In truth I doubt more then 3 water molecules could congregate in there at the same time! Other Under Hood Cooling Options If you take a good look at the underside of the TJ hood you will see a ?Spine? or channel that runs right down the middle of the hood and another which runs across the rear edge of the hood. Here is a picture. I am sure this channel is there to stiffen the hood and keep it from flexing. Well, there are 6 oval shaped holes cut out of the center channel and another 6 oval shaped holes cut in the channel at the back of the hood. These oval shaped holes are LARGE. 2 and 3/8-inch by 1 and 1/8-inch. While I have not done this, I see no reason why the hood could not be? precision drilled? with 1-inch holes along these channels. I think if I were to do this, and I may, I would drill the holes so they would NOT line up with the oval holes in the underside of the channel. This would help control water flow. I think I also would need some means of making these holes look finished and a means of closing them off in the winter. In short, this is only a thought with potential. I will look into it as I have the time. Have a wonderful day, Frank |
#33
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WOW Frank, Nice work!!!
While certainly not the most fit & finish tidy way to expell heat, I met this guy in Moab a few weeks ago & this was his solution which worked for him on his YJ. Us folks who still run wooden fuses tend to cut some corners. |
#34
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Hey Joe,
Now that is what I call an "Industrial Strength" hood Vent! To all, This should be my last post on this unles someone has any questions. I will be moving on to Evaporative Coooling soon. I have received more then a few PM?s and email notes from various forums asking for help on locating the parts for this project. I wish I were able to. While I would like to help folks out when I can, I am not in a position to become a Louver Parts Dealer. I am affraid anyone who would like to install these louvers will have to pay a visit to ta Pontiac Dealer(with ?Parts? Departments). I think just about every town has one close by. Once again here are the part numbers and what I paid for them locally from the dealer. Part Numbers and Costs #10225885 - Left Side Louver $27.23 #10230097- Left Side Drip Pan $4.56 #10225886 - Right Side Louver $27.23 #10230098 - Right Side Drip Pan $4.56 From the feedback I have been received from Jeepers a lot of Dealers are not giving folks any discount off list price on these at all. (Shame on them! Trying to ?fund? their retirement plans off of just one customer, YOU!) Here is an online site that carries just about ANY GM PART, as long as you have the part number (which you do! Look UP!) http://www.parts.com/index.cfm?actio...nt&sfid=213768 Once you go to the site, enter the OEM Part Number (Look Up!) and select Pontiac. Then click Search. It will pull the part # you typed in and you can order it. I just checked and it appears all four part numbers are in stock and available to ship. The Louvers online at this site are: $34.40 each (List is $41.95) The Drip Pans online at this site are: $9.50 each (List $11.49) Obviously these prices are higher then what I paid for my parts. I suppose I received a deeper discount. I would suggest you check with your local Pontiac Dealer for Price and Availability and compare to the Price and availability at the above link. Once again I wish I could help you out farther but I simply do not have that kind of time for the volume of requests I have received to order and ship folks parts. I am certain most folks can understand this. Frank |
#35
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Louver and Drip Pan Part Sources
I really do not like when I have a bad taste in my mouth because things just didn?t finish up with ?apple pie alamode?. The Pontiac dealer I received my parts from does not ship, or you would have the name and phone number already. The other think I don?t like is that folks seem to not be able to replicate the prices I paid for my parts. So?? I did a little more looking and have come up with some pretty low pricing. Here is a list of Parts dealers who not only sell these parts but also claim to have them in inventory ready to ship. (You will have to figure out what their shipping costs are when you call as I do not know this information.) I have listed these dealers in order of pricing for the louvers, lowest price ($28.95) first, along with the means of ordering online or by tool free phone number (in most cases.) Here are the parts sources folks. P & G Chevrolet Go to this link and put your part numbers in to order. http://www.parts.com/index.cfm?actio...Front&sfid=192 Have Louvers for $28.95 each and drip pans for $8.00 each . . . Van Chevrolet Scottsdale, AZ 1-800-477-9233 Have Louvers for $29.37 each and drip pans for $8.11 each . . . First Toyota, GMC Pontiac Parts Reton, WA 1-888-271-3948 Have Louvers for $30.20 each and drip pans for $8.34 each . . . Bob McGuire Parts 205 Hedding Rd Bordentown , NJ 08505 800-524-0096 Ext 917 Have Louvers for $31.04 each and drip pans for $8.58 each . . . A.W. Golden GM & Isuzu Parts Reading, PA 610-777-4113 Have Louvers for $31.46 each and drip pans for $8.69 each . . . Lake Chevrolet Lake Ellsinore, CA 1-866-546-2333 Have Louvers for $31.46 each and drip pans for $8.69 each . . . Jim Fresard Auto Dealerships 400 N. Main Street Royal Oak, Michigan 48067 1-800-373-7273 Have Louvers for $31.46 each and drip pans for $8.69 each . . . New GM Parts Hyannis, MA 1-800-858-1977 Have Louvers for $31.46 each and drip pans for $8.59 each . . . Chevy and GM Parts Puyallup, WA 1-800-650-4036 Have Louvers for $32.72 each and drip pans for $9.04 each . . . #1 GM Parts Worldwide Laguna Niguel, CA (866) 968-6425 Have Louvers for $33.56 each and drip pans for $9.27 each . . . Genuine GM Parts Bellingham, WA 1-866-572-2277 Have Louvers for $33.56 each and drip pans for $9.27 each . . . The GM Parts Warehouse 1-866-789-3333 Have Louvers for $34.44 each and drip pans for $9.25 each . . . Yes! Now it tastes better. Have a great night folks, Frank |
#36
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Quote:
__________________
94 yj, 3.5BDS, 33x10.50kms, front lockright, rear detroit, a disced rear scout 44 with 4.88s, all sitting in a pile waiting to be bolted in. 44 willys MB bone stock being restored. |
#37
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Thanks for the info! I wish I had checked back for the "where to buy" update, as I've been looking for a while this morning myself. Although my local Pontiac dealer wanted $45 each for the louvers and $20 each for the deflector/drip pan, I was able to find another online site where the prices seemed reasonable.:
http://www.newgmparts.com/ Search for the p/n's above. The louvers are $31.46 and the deflectors (as they call them) are $8.69 each. Plus shipping of course.
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------------ Bill - Jeeps Only A Yahoo-style directory of Jeep links http://www.jeepsonly.com ------------------------ |
#38
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Good info. I've saved the part #'s and added this to my list of mods to do. Thanks
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#39
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Frank,
Thanks for this great thread! Who needs magazines?
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I'm your Huckleberry . . . |
#40
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Wow! awesome thread! Youve done a ton of footwork for the rest of us. Cool, Van Chevrolet is right down the street and that seems pretty cheap!
Mike |
#41
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louvers
You said that if you could find a way to replicate the louver template that you would get it out to anyone that wants it, do you think that you could scan the louver template with a scanner and place the pic on this thread or email it to people that would like it, i am very interested in doing this mod since it seem you have come up with a hell of an idea!
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#42
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Re: louvers
Quote:
I tried the scan and pint but it wont work for several reasons. 1. it is larger then 11.5 inches and 2. Every computer and printer changes the aspect ratio slightly when printing. This would cause the template to be off. If you send me a snail mail address I will be happy to hand trace the template on some cardboard for you and mail it to you. Hope this helps, Frank |
#43
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TJ Temp Gauge
my 2001 temp gauge changes as is appropriate.
180 idle, 210 stop and go, 220-230 highway. I'll be installing louvers next week. FYI, I run a 180 thermostat, 3 row radiator but the grille is somewhat blocked and I have 35's w/ 4.88's so the rpms run a little high. 3000 @ 80mph mf
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God forgives, rocks don't! |
#44
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Drip Pans
I just called the dealer and they only make the right drip pan now, not the left anymore. Or vice versa...
Time for the junk yard. mf
__________________
God forgives, rocks don't! |
#45
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Re: Drip Pans
Quote:
Louvers are are $41.60 and pans are $8.69. |
#46
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Hmmm...dealer must be on crack. I'll check it out.
Thanks!
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God forgives, rocks don't! |
#47
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Quote:
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Growing old is mandatory. Growing up is optional. |
#48
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Nope, sorry. I didn't order them, just asked if the parts were all still available.
I just now checked their website & they *still* show them as available, so maybe the person I talked to just checked that? Dunno.... |
#49
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Well, if they're not available...we are Jeep guys, I'm sure we could fab some out of something. It would be nice to have the correct pieces though.
Matthew
__________________
God forgives, rocks don't! |
#50
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Louvers YES!
I just wanted to take a moment to express my graditude for the person that put this post together. I own a 85 Camaro and have heavly modified it. Unforunately with great power comes great heat. I've been building a custom ram air hood for it and have stopped building it to research a good set of heat extractors. I've looked all over the place Greenwood Corvette louvers, Merkur Cosworth replica louvers, aftermarket "3M" ABS louvers, and finally thanks to this post GTP hood louvers. I ended up purchasing a set through P&G Chevrolet (another thanks to the person pursuing the best price) for $79.80 for the two plus S&H. Considering the up to date list price is now $57.83 each, the 39.90 they were asking seemed pretty dang good. If you guys are interested I'll post some pics from the project and then maybe in a week or two whenever I get these louvers I'll post a final product.
If any of you are trying to do this as well and are looking for somthing a little different.. and have extra money too I suppose you can check out the Cosworth RS louvers I found HERE. They are a aluminum replica set that used to come on the Cosworth RS Merkurs back in the 80's. Anyway thanks again. P.S. anyone selling a Wrangler 4.0L I need a winter car and have been wanting one for sometime. EDIT: I forgot to add I did not buy the drip pans for the louvers (I dont drive my car in the rain) so I'm not sure if they are still available... I checked into buying them though and there was a price listed for the right one, but not the left one... maybe they are discontinued.
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Mike 85 Chevrolet Camaro 358ci 94 Ford Taurus SHO 3.2L |
#51
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That Rapido site is interesting but I couldn't find a price for those louvers anywhere. Do you have to call them or am I simply an idiot in not being able to find it on the site?
I see you have a SHO - I had an 89. It ran like a bat out of hell and I only had 2 real problems with it - I couldn't keep a clutch in it for more than 20K and the main wiring harness fried itself at 112,000 miles. It was at that point I traded it for the TJ. That $20,000 car netted me a $2,000 trade in value - no more new Fords for me after that experience. |
#52
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Cosworth cost big bucks
Yes you have to call them... however I stated in the previous post if you EXTRA money because it is a lot extra. I called and the woman qouted me a price of $275.00 for the pair. So unless you dont mind spending the extra cash to go unique I wouldnt mess with it. You may be able to find them somewhere else... but I didnt bother to look into it, the GTP louvers are longer and will match up better with my hood scoop.
EDIT: Yea my SHO is pretty dang fast, its one hell of a winter beater. When I bought it I was looking to spend maybe 2000 on a decent ride, ended up dropping 7500 on it. I've been doing all the regular maintainance to it and the only on going battle I've had with it is the stupid 332 engine code, which is EGR valve insufficient flow. This was usually related with the EGR valve down pipe being clogged or rusted out, both of which are not the case with my car. Been running around the problem for about a year and a half with no success. I've replaced damn near the entire EGR system. Other then that the car is sweet and it'll even woop on the occasional fox body GT stangs.
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Mike 85 Chevrolet Camaro 358ci 94 Ford Taurus SHO 3.2L |
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