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  #61  
Old 09-04-2003, 09:01 PM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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At first glance Frank, you make some sense. Unfortunately, that's only at first glance. The point you are missing greatly is the foot in the door aspect of this that is the mainstay of organizations that would both limit our rights under the constitution as in the ability to own and use weapons and the ecological terrorists.

Go back in time to the instant when some seemingly well intentioned moron stood up and waved a full blown assault weapon at a room full of his constituents and asked innocuously enough-"Who among us would feel badly about restricting the use of this weapon?" At that point in time had the repercussions of that one seemingly innocent question been able to be foreseen, we would have all fought it much harder to kill the snowball before it ever started rolling.

The same is with the ecological terrorists. Had we known the repercussions of the snowball started by the showing of the clubbing of baby seals, we all would have taken up seal batting as a hobby to stop the land grabbing organizations from denying access to land that should be rightfully travelled by folks in any form of transport.

It starts out on the right foot with only the toe peeking through the door, but eventually the whole foot of oppression sneaks through and you lose more freedom, rights and it always costs more for less.

What you are witnessing is a long suffering reaction to our infrastructure overwhelmed with the astounding numbers streaming across the border. I personally know several friends who have had their insurance go up because of claims with the uninsured non legalized drivers.

Would your reaction to this be to just open the border and do nothing to stem the flow?

We are merely reacting to symptom of a situation out of our individual control and not one that we find desireable. How does one solve that?

We see this as a foot in the door that will aid in the additional loads on our infrastructure that we cannot afford now.
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  #62  
Old 09-04-2003, 09:27 PM
Daless2 Daless2 is offline
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Hi Blaine,

I don't think I would argue with any of the points you have made simply becuase I find myself in agreement with most. However I would suggest that "requiring illegal's" to demonstrate they have the basic minimum driving skills and knowledge of everyone else on the road is indeed a good thing, and is not opening the door for a toe hold or a foot hold.

On second thought perhaps it is a toe hold in the door. Yet I would ask, "who should care about a toe in the door when the flood gates are open?"

One only need to look at the school system in San Diego as Joe has explained to see the difference.


The problem as I see it is not driver licenses for illegal's. The problem (and frustration) is that we in this country are not MOTIVATED to deal with illegal's by both preventing them from entering the country illegally, and deporting those who have entered illegally.

If we are a country based in law, then we should demand of our politicians, our leaders and ourselves that the laws be followed. It is not enough to talk the talk, we, all of us, must be EFFECTIVE at it.

Good night my friend. I have to get some sleep.

Frank
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  #63  
Old 09-04-2003, 10:11 PM
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Well, I guess I really hit a sore subject. I want to thank you Mr Blain and all of you for your opions. I really enjoyed reading them. I've seen a few different views but, I can't help but with sticking with my first thought. "ILLEGAL" is the key word. If they are here illegaley that means they are breaking the law. So why should they be rewarded with a drivers license?



I was waiting for someone to cap on me for saying "I know everything and my jeep never breaks" This board is slipping!
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  #64  
Old 09-04-2003, 10:14 PM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daless2
Hi Blaine,

I don't think I would argue with any of the points you have made simply becuase I find myself in agreement with most. However I would suggest that "requiring illegal's" to demonstrate they have the basic minimum driving skills and knowledge of everyone else on the road is indeed a good thing, and is not opening the door for a toe hold or a foot hold.

On second thought perhaps it is a toe hold in the door. Yet I would ask, "who should care about a toe in the door when the flood gates are open?"

One only need to look at the school system in San Diego as Joe has explained to see the difference.


The problem as I see it is not driver licenses for illegal's. The problem (and frustration) is that we in this country are not MOTIVATED to deal with illegal's by both preventing them from entering the country illegally, and deporting those who have entered illegally.

If we are a country based in law, then we should demand of our politicians, our leaders and ourselves that the laws be followed. It is not enough to talk the talk, we, all of us, must be EFFECTIVE at it.

Good night my friend. I have to get some sleep.

Frank
That is in fact the perfunctory glance that is what we are fighting. It is not wrong to require the basic minimum skills and giving them a chunk of plastic to verify it. If that is where it would stop, no one would have an issue with it.

The sad fact is that a CA drivers license is the primary form of ID to open the door to many free services afforded primarily to citizens. Not that I care that much whether non citizens take advantage of them, but they are not free and are funded by taxes. Hence my reference to our overwhelmed infrastructure.

Before anyone attempts to make the point that illegals pay taxes, let me say in my personal experience doing construction that typically they work for cash and don't pay the same amount of tax that the rest of us are burdened with.

So yes, you are correct that the problem is not demanding a modicum of displayed and documented driving skill, but is more in fact us looking for a baby seal to club.
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  #65  
Old 09-04-2003, 10:16 PM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jay
Well, I guess I really hit a sore subject. I want to thank you Mr Blain and all of you for your opions. I really enjoyed reading them. I've seen a few different views but, I can't help but with sticking with my first thought. "ILLEGAL" is the key word. If they are here illegaley that means they are breaking the law. So why should they be rewarded with a drivers license?



I was waiting for someone to cap on me for saying "I know everything and my jeep never breaks" This board is slipping!
I read the law that was passed and did not see the word "illegal" in reference to the aliens. Did I miss it somewhere?
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  #66  
Old 09-04-2003, 10:24 PM
Jay Jay is offline
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Blaine, I myself didn't read it. I was listening to a radio station on my way back from my lake house and they were using the term "illegal immigrants" And I have to say they didn't specify any one race. It was the fact that Gray Davis vowed to sign this bill for illegal immigrants to get drivers licsenses. If this was wrong i guess i started something to at least talk about. Just got on here and am going to read it no that it has been posted.
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  #67  
Old 09-04-2003, 10:39 PM
Jay Jay is offline
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Blaine, I read through it kinda fast. As far as I can tell you are right it dosen't say anything about "illegal." But it does open every door to anyone from outside our country to getting a drivers licsense. Either way I think this is wrong. And I will say it to anyone. Your "own foot in the door" says it all I think.
I'm not much on debating this kinda of stuff. But I am learning.
Thank you again for your professionalism.
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  #68  
Old 09-05-2003, 09:35 AM
Robert J. Yates Robert J. Yates is offline
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Legal or Illegal - who cares?

This entire arguement is but a portion of a larger issue and that is the globalization of the US and the fact that we are well on our way to becoming a borderless country. I know of no politician that is openly vocalizing this, but the lack of the spoken word does not mean that it isn't happening - the actions of our government speak much louder.

Lets face it, the individual vote isn't deemed all that precious and in fact, it never was used to elect a president - that is the job of the electoral college. Combine that with the fact that there are only 2 partys operating our government and the cash aspect of their fund raising efforts and to me, what we have obtained is a government run by special interests and not the people. Free trade, NAFTA and all the rest of the agreements are fine on the face of them but realistically, they are very bad for the individual in this country (particularly labor) unless aspects of the way this country intends to do business with its citizens drastically changes.

If we are going to have a borderless society, its my view that the citizens of this country should obtain a benefit from that seeing that its the result of the hard work, toil and even lives given in the fight for freedom by the folks who have been here legally which is allowing that to happen. All this talk about the conferrence of benefits on immigrants, legal or otherwise is fine but I ask what about those who are already here?

My view is that if the floodgates are going to be opened, then what needs to happen is that there is tacit acknowledgement made to that and that a true market oriented relationship be fostered with the people.

To that end, I say abolish the income tax, eliminate welfare whether corporate or individual, and then let everyone get on with it. The strong survive and florish and the weak are cast aside. Why should the folks here bear the burden of hosting this country for the benefit of others who have not worked for it, fought for it and/or died for it? Letting anyone and everyone in (legal or otherwise) and conferring unearned privledges upon them only dilutes what each one of us has worked for. Joe Dillards experience with school for his son is a perfect example of this. Its my view that the people of this country need to request reimbursement from the government for this dilution of their hard earned share.
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  #69  
Old 09-05-2003, 10:16 AM
TObject TObject is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jay
But it does open every door to anyone from outside our country to getting a drivers licsense.
Only Americans may drive. What's next? Department stores only Americans may enter?
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  #70  
Old 09-05-2003, 10:29 AM
Dan-H Dan-H is offline
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I'm reading this and am thinking about a friends husband who is sitting in jail because he and his wife fled a country. She has "legal documents" his were apparently caught up in red tape.

He may very well get deported, or may leave the US voluntarily, but never being allowed to return or he would face arrest.

the difference is (in his case, and in my opinion) he does not have the correct skin color nor does he speak the correct language to "blend in".

If he were hispanic, and spoke spanish he could easily disappear into the fabric of the state along with the two million (at least that's what the state says) other illegal aliens from the south.
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  #71  
Old 09-05-2003, 10:45 AM
Robert J. Yates Robert J. Yates is offline
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Well as long as we are sitting here thinking about people caught up in the system.........

I have a friend who had his drivers license stripped away by the LA County DA for being one of the so called deadbeat dads. Now mind you, I am intimately aware of his situation (ex is one of "those" types of ex's) and he is not really a deadbeat dad and he has been fighting it but they still took his license and turned him into a criminal. He is a decorated marine from the Gulf war. So I have to ask, why should some illegal immigrant , read CRIMINAL, get a license but not him?
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  #72  
Old 09-05-2003, 10:49 AM
Robert J. Yates Robert J. Yates is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TObject
Only Americans may drive. What's next? Department stores only Americans may enter?
But Sergey, you are American. Frankly, you did it the hard way and the legal way. These other efforts only serve to dilute your sacrifice, which by the way is quite commendable given this topic. Apparently you really didn't have to make the effort in order to recieve privledges as far as the State of California is concerned.
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  #73  
Old 09-05-2003, 11:03 AM
TObject TObject is offline
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Yes, but I also drove my jeep before I became American. I went to DMV with my then foreign passport, filled the application, got my eyes tested, passed the theory, passed the driving test, and got my license... I used my jeep to get to work, other places, and to go wheeling. Thank God I didn't get in any accidents, and didn't run anybody over. And I always had proper insurance. I don't see anything wrong with non-Americans driving. I used to be one of them.

I am not advocating any illegal aliens issue. I am just not sure that giving driver's licenses only to Americans is a good idea. In many places a vehicle is the only way to get around.
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  #74  
Old 09-05-2003, 11:07 AM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TObject
Yes, but I also drove my jeep before I became American. I went to DMV with my then foreign passport, filled the application, got my eyes tested, passed the theory, passed the driving test, and got my license... I used my jeep to get to work, other places, and to go wheeling. Thank God I didn't get in any accidents, and didn't run anybody over. And I always had proper insurance. I don't see anything wrong with documented non-Americans driving. I used to be one of them.

I am not advocating any illegal aliens issue. I am just not sure that giving driver's licenses only to Americans is a good idea. In many places a vehicle is the only way to get around.
I added a word that now makes the whole thing make sense.

There is nothing wrong with what you say, it's just that they are making it much easier for illegals to become legal without due process.
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  #75  
Old 09-05-2003, 11:15 AM
Robert J. Yates Robert J. Yates is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TObject
I am just not sure that giving driver's licenses only to Americans is a good idea. In many places a vehicle is the only way to get around.
Driving is not a right, its privledge. Last I looked, privledges are not something necessarilly granted to folks demonstrating bad or criminal behavior. My daughter understands this very well. Ask her of her opinion on this issue - she is currently with a learners permit.
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  #76  
Old 09-05-2003, 11:24 AM
TObject TObject is offline
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How about Television and weight room privileges in prison?
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  #77  
Old 09-05-2003, 11:29 AM
Stu Olson Stu Olson is offline
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The way I see it here in AZ, people will drive regardless of their having a valid license or not. True?

So.....why not make the illegal aliens go to driving school (so that Frank is satisifed that there are better drivers on the road) AND not give them a license (so that pretty much everyone living in CA is happy).


And Sergey, I didn't get the impression that this thread was heading towards the allowing only Americans to drive....I thought it was all about illegals being allowed to drive in Amercia. When you went to DMV with your passport in hand you were anything but illegal. I had an international driver's license when I was in the military and overseas.....and I was NOT illegal either.
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  #78  
Old 09-05-2003, 11:33 AM
Stu Olson Stu Olson is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TObject
How about Television and weight room privileges in prison?
Used as an incentive to reward proper behavior, they are just fine......not all that unsimilar to how many parents reward their children for doing the right thing. (some even buy them an XJ!)

Now....if you are saying that inmates should have a television and a weight room just because they are in prison.....not no but HELL no!
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  #79  
Old 09-05-2003, 11:39 AM
TObject TObject is offline
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Stu here is an idea that popped into my head after reading your post. How about using the driving privilege somehow to reward proper behavior, similar to TV privilege used in prison.
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  #80  
Old 09-05-2003, 11:44 AM
Robert J. Yates Robert J. Yates is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TObject
Stu here is an idea that popped into my head after reading your post. How about using the driving privilege somehow to reward proper behavior, similar to TV privilege used in prison.
...only one problem with that - the only proper behavior for the illegal then would be to go back across the border and then come back in legally

.....unless we granted another amnesty which again gets us into the problem of rewarding criminal behavior.
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  #81  
Old 09-05-2003, 12:02 PM
TObject TObject is offline
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How about this. Another wild idea.

Give the BCIS, or whoever is responsible for catching illegal aliens, records of people who received a driver's license using questionable documents. The BCIS could then on their time invite the persons from the list to their offices to check the papers and deport the ones they find unfit. And if any of the invited, fail to show up (with reasonable effort made to reach the persons), BCIS would report these back to DMV for the driver's license suspension.
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  #82  
Old 09-05-2003, 12:05 PM
Robert J. Yates Robert J. Yates is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TObject
How about this. Another wild idea.

Give the BCIS, or whoever is responsible for catching illegal aliens, records of people who received a driver's license using questionable documents. The BCIS could then on their time invite the persons from the list to their offices to check the papers and deport the ones they find unfit. And if any of the invited, fail to show up (with reasonable effort made to reach the persons), BCIS would report these back to DMV for the driver's license suspension.
LOL. so then you make the criminals - well, criminals
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  #83  
Old 09-05-2003, 12:28 PM
Stu Olson Stu Olson is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
...only one problem with that - the only proper behavior for the illegal then would be to go back across the border and then come back in legally
Very true.....but at least they could legally drive while doing all of that!
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  #84  
Old 09-05-2003, 12:54 PM
TioLoco TioLoco is offline
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i'm with Paradiddle. Although I am of Mexican decent I do believe in the control of our borders but.... the danger in this is not in the vote, they're not gonna vote anyways out of fear of being caught. I think i'd rather make sure these guys know our highway laws. Have you driven in Tijuana lately?
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  #85  
Old 09-05-2003, 12:55 PM
Dan-H Dan-H is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TObject

Give the BCIS, or whoever is responsible for catching illegal aliens, records of people who received a driver's license using questionable documents. The BCIS could then on their time invite the persons from the list to their offices to check the papers and deport the ones they find unfit. And if any of the invited, fail to show up (with reasonable effort made to reach the persons), BCIS would report these back to DMV for the driver's license suspension.
from the text of the proposed law :




(f) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, information
regarding an applicant's social security account number, federal
individual taxpayer identification number, or any other information
collected under Section 12801 or 12801.5, obtained by the department
pursuant to this section, is not a public record and may not be
disclosed by the department except for any of the following purposes:


(1) Responding to a request for information from an agency
operating pursuant to, and carrying out the provisions of, Part A
(Aid to Families with Dependent Children), or Part D (Child Support
and Establishment of Paternity), of Subchapter IV of Chapter 7 of
Title 42 of the United States Code.
(2) Implementation of Section 12419.10 of the Government Code.
(3) Responding to information requests from the Franchise Tax
Board for the purpose of tax administration.
SEC. 2. Section 12800 of the Vehicle Code is amended to read:
12800. Every application for an original or a renewal of a driver'
s license shall contain all of the following information:


(1) is the deadbeat dad law, (2) is the parking and traffic fine abuser law and (3) is so Franchise TB can verify VLF deductions from your tax return.

Other than those three reasons, and any embedded references in these sections, the DMV cannot furnish any of the info to another agency.

I hope we all realize that the FBI, NSC and CIA have access to this info already as long as it is in the spirit of national security, but I doubt that these agencies give a crap about the 2 million undocumented aliens in CA.
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  #86  
Old 09-05-2003, 01:16 PM
Robert J. Yates Robert J. Yates is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan-H
(1) Responding to a request for information from an agency
operating pursuant to, and carrying out the provisions of, Part A
(Aid to Families with Dependent Children), or Part D (Child Support
and Establishment of Paternity), of Subchapter IV of Chapter 7 of
Title 42 of the United States Code.


.....but I doubt that these agencies give a crap about the 2 million undocumented aliens in CA.
hmmmmm.....apparently even illegal immigrant deadbeat dads can have their license swiped by the local DA. That is so fawkin ironic its almost not even funny.
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  #87  
Old 09-05-2003, 01:23 PM
Dan-H Dan-H is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
hmmmmm.....apparently even illegal immigrant deadbeat dads can have their license swiped by the local DA. That is so fawkin ironic its almost not even funny.
ROTFLMAO
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  #88  
Old 09-05-2003, 04:30 PM
William William is offline
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Jeff... you continually amaze me with your pointed truths on this subject. Everytime I think I'm fully settled with my point of view, you come up with some funny points that completely shift how I look at things. BUT:

Quote:
Originally posted by Paradiddle
[B]You guys are high if you think that the average illegal alien gives a rats a$$ about voting. They don't care about politics - the are here working and trying to make money. They come from a country were the democratic process doesn't work and poitics are rife with corruption.
They do. On the farms, their are concerted efforts to get thier opinions on issues that concern them ~ there are "uninions" that organize illegals, and claim that they will organize voters (these voters made up of former illegals) to vote for what they want. These people skim what little money the imm. workers make. But they do have a voting sense. Really.


Quote:
Voter fraud is white man paranoia - hell only a VERY small percentage of the white man votes.
Funny, Florida's fiasco sure was well represented across the board about voter fraud.

Quote:
I also don't know if it is any better or wore to be involved in an accident with an illegal that has a license, or doesn't. They will drive if they have to get to work and cannot find another means - with or without the little card.
EXACTLY.. Now, if we could only get the government to reflect that common sense..

Quote:
The other thing that I find short sighted about statements like "we should get them outta here" is the complete intolerance of people to pay higher amounts for goods.
I would willingly pay higher if it meant we treated human biengs in a better manner. We are a society of over consumption anyway. Drive along the 5 last winter and look at all the tomatoes spread out for cows to eat ~ simply because prices were not agreable. Fields full of food not picked because it was too expensive. What a waste.. I would.

Quote:
Do you have any idea what consumer goods would cost if white kids/men did the labor? Trust me on this - in the manual labor department I've never seen anyone work harder for longer periods of time then our brown brothers.
It has less to do with them being brown, than with the fear they have of bieng deported, and fear of not being able to support a family.


Quote:
The low wage alien worker is an integral part of our economy - as sad as that is - I'm not sure how we alter that.
Simple way is to legalize them.. and legitimize them, and make them subject to fair wage acts. I bet farmers would get a lot better at farming.

Consider the "weed" issue, and the fact most farmers will not mechanize weed removal, and for fear of loosing the popular "organic" label won't use pesticides. So they use people who have few choices (though they do have a choice) to do the work.

Quote:
I also agree that there should be little or no income tax and everything a use tax. Drug dealers/illegals/etc. all have to BUY things.
But you support them one way or another, right? Either through your income, or your purchases. Unless you purchase everything out of state..
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  #89  
Old 09-06-2003, 01:36 AM
Anders Karlsson Anders Karlsson is offline
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I found an interesting document listing each states requirements regarding documentation needed to obtain a Drivers License.

http://www.nilc.org/immspbs/DLs/2001...ments_2.03.PDF

It looks like the following states have the least interest in a persons immigrant status.

AK
HI
MI
MO
MT
NC
OR
TN setting up testing centers to issue DL. to those without SSN or INS docs.
UT
WA
WI
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  #90  
Old 09-11-2003, 08:39 AM
Paradiddle Paradiddle is offline
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They had the author of this bill on KROQ this morning. I learned a couple things. He is a senator (and not hispanic).

Up until 1994 any illegal alien could get a drivers license - the thought was then that having them trained and eligibal to get insurance was better then nothing.

In 1994 they reversed the law - according to the author who cites listening to hours of debate tapes they were hoping removing this carrot would stem the tide of illegal immigration.

It didn't affect immigration numbers.

The Senator (author) sited AAA and the department of transportation as saying that from 1994 to now there were more accidents by unlicensed illegals then before - this doesn't hold much water for me because there are probably more of them here and by that fact more of them driving.

This guy said he'd been working on this for 5 years with the govenor and finally got it written the way Davis wanted it - he said it has nothing to do with votes and everything to do with highway safety. We lead the nation in hit and run fatalities as an FYI.

We used to let them drive so this isn't anything new for Cal.

Jeff
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