Rubicon, TJ, Rocks and Cross Country.....

[upnovr]

so these guys need to rotate their tires front to back? im confused .



oh and next time you see Brian Cale tell him to air down his Iroks to 6-8 psi. if he likes 10-12 psi, he'll really like 6-8.

[Robert A.M. Stephens]

Originally posted by Allen
I think a lot of people are forgetting or dismissing contact pressure.

A tire with a smaller footprint has a higher contact pressure than one with a larger footprint.

Contract pressure directly affects handling and traction.

I do believe that the chains are an advantage in most soft terrain.

I am however skeptical that they'd be advantageous in the rocks. I see the tire spinning as the chain makes contact with a rock, then grabbing as the tire itself gets traction. Repeat this over and over.....Seems real herky jerky and a good way to break parts.

It's just one of those things I won't believe until I see.

Call me Thomas.

Allen

Yes, Allen, you are correct. It has to be seen to understand. The tire and chain combo does not spin at all. That is the point. The chain grabs and sticks and the vehicle moves. Because there is no tension and factor of resistance built up as the drivetrain tries to turn a big mushy soft aired down tire, there is far less stress on drivetrain components., not more.

On the run this weekend, with the rigs set up as what is the norm now in the currect fad of setting up wides tires etc., they too saw for the first time, on rocks, mud, soft and hard terrain and all combos, what chains and narrow tires did.

Too, as fact, not bragging, they broke parts, dented tailgates, spun out and the one TJ was stuck numerous times, but VEX had none of those problems nor was it ever stuck, or broke anything. It was the narrow tires and chains that allowed this, with selectable lockers, a 7:13:1 1st gear and he low transfercase gearing.

If you ever see it in action, as the folks from the Eco group did, I think it would be clear. A 'thomas' is not a bad thing at all.

Hopefully, you can see this or get it demoed so you can observe first hand.

Lastly, your comment on contact pressure, the factor of adhesion, is totally correct, on any terrain, but because rock does not give, it is especially true.

Again, if a wide tire is for traction, why are you all airing them down?

[Robert A.M. Stephens]

Originally posted by upnovr
so these guys need to rotate their tires front to back? im confused .



oh and next time you see Brian Cale tell him to air down his Iroks to 6-8 psi. if he likes 10-12 psi, he'll really like 6-8.

Read above post on this please. It's there. Too, shooting yourself sorta as a comparison, that pict doesn 't appear to be a rig seen in the JV region or off road.

Or, maybe that is your off road rig. I too am confused. A little lift might help you some. But, it sure has a cool paint job and the hard core off road bumper on the front looks really good and winch ready!

Just a thought.

[upnovr]

again from what ive read here it the chains that are making the difference for you. not how wide or narrow the tire is.

i look at chains the same way i look at steel spikes on golf shoes. steel spikes sure tear up the greens and, living on the east coast all my life, ive seen where chains tear up the road so i cant see how you can say they wont leave any damage.

[speaceman]

Originally posted by Robert A.M. Stephens


The racing slick is as porus as velcro and acts the same. A gallon of clorox poured over it a few seconds before the power up adds to this effect, and looks really molten as the tires set there for 5 seconds burning away before the rail moves down the line. But that is not off road applications in rock piles. Wouldn't you agree?

Does that help?

Actually, I was thinking more of racing cars and the fact that they run wider tires than skinny.


Why aren't indy cars running 195/65 tires if skinny is better?

"
In our Jeep's, save for mud, sand, tundra, meskeg, all other applications you will get far more traction with a narrow tire than a wide one. Add chains and the increase is multi-fold beyond that. "

Also, from my own personal observation based on the guys we ran with, the friend who ran 33x10.5 tires had to air down just like the rest of us to get any traction out of his tire on any terrain out here in So Cal, whether that was rocks, loose dirt, mountain trails, sand, or slight muddy trials.

If it is true that skinnier is better, then he should have been able to progress with more air in his tires than the rest of us that were running wider tires.

And were talking a direct comparison with similar set up jeeps at the time and the exact same tread patter tires.

So what's the deal with that then?

There was no noticable difference in his running that tire, and his tires were only an inch wider than the ones you run on your rig.

From all my experience, aired up tires don't grip well. They are more likely to spin and they are more likely to slide off of things like rocks.

Now they may grip with chains on them. That I will not dispute, since I have not personally observed or tried it.

I just have had no positive experience with any tire, wide or skinny gripping well, here in SoCal, if it had air in the tire.

[upnovr]

i like these.



check that... the red ones, oh yeah, the red ones.

[LeadFoot]

Robert, does your friend not know that they make a 38.5x11 bogger and 38x13 tsl???

[Robert A.M. Stephens]

Originally posted by LeadFoot
Robert, does your friend not know that they make a 38.5x11 bogger and 38x13 tsl???

I'm not sure, Brian did talk about a very tall, relationship wise, relative to height, narrow Bogger. The size you show might be the one he mentioned. He has tried about a dozen types of tires over the last 18 months and gets teased over this. I'll ask when he mails.

[DsrtJeeper]

Originally posted by Robert A.M. Stephens


Again, if a wide tire is for traction, why are you all airing them down?

Robert;
Think about it... I think it's pretty obvious that we air down for that last bit of traction that the tire doesn't offer at 35PSI.

Many offroad tires at 35PSI have a very rounded carcass with a narrow contact patch actually touching terra firma. Air down and you now have full tread width sticking to the trail. Also; tires that are aired down can wrap around obstacles for better bite.

Take a Swamper TSL and air it up to 40 PSI. You might have 2-3" of tread width touching the ground. I guarantee that you WILL NOT make it up the easier waterfalls on "Judgement Day" here in AZ. How do I know this? I ran it last week with a rig set up exactly like mine right down to the spare sitting in the tub. He could not get up the waterfall to save his life. One glance at his tires and I noticed his air pressure looked high. I popped out my digital guage and dropped his tires from 15PSI to 8PSI. He lined up again and walked right up the only line that waterfall offers.

I did this very same thing for my friend Nate on Poison Spider Mesa in Moab. He attempted to take a harder line that I had just walked up with little luck and a longer wheelbase to boot. I dropped his tires down to 8PSI and he walked right up the ledge.

It would be very easy to demonstrate this and i'm sure most here have whitnessed this over and over.

Now I ask you...If skinny tires at 35PSI grab so well; why do they require chains?

What's the first thing the driver of a two wheel drive pickup does when he/she hits the sand dunes?

Why are there remains of an old board road laid across the Imperial Sand Dunes in California? It was the only way model T's and A's could traverse the deep sand with their skinny tires.

You mentioned that the chains grip and move on as the rocks are stationary. I don't know where you've been wheeling; Robert, but our rocks move under the tires. JV is famous for this.

Why do ATV's come equipped with wide tires from the factory and require 3-4PSI per manufacturers recommendations?

We won't even touch upon the added stability of wider tires.

Ever watch trial bikes running the rocks? I was into that sport nearly 30 years ago on an old Honda trial bike. We nearly ran the tires flat to grip like pencil erasers to the rocks as we climbed like goats. As you know; dirt bike tires are very thin. Why was it necessary to air down and is still the accepted way today?

Here's the clincher....Why do flat track racing motorcycles air up for such racing. After racing flat track successfully for 5 yrs.; I can tell you why. We wanted less traction so as to slide around the corners. Too much traction would send you into the fence. Again; these are skinny tires. Motocrossers and flat trackers to this day still utilize the same procedures.

I suspect 33" tires whether chained or not, won't be climbing 6' waterfalls anytime soon. You'll be dragging on your belly plate long before your rear tires reach the waterfall face. Not to mention the trail damage as you sit there and spin.

None of the pictures you've posted depict anywhere near the difficulty of trail I regularly run. I run boulder strewn trails only.

Awaiting your comments.
Eric

[Robert A.M. Stephens]

Originally posted by DsrtJeeper
Robert;
Think about it... I think it's pretty obvious that we air down for that last bit of traction that the tire doesn't offer at 35PSI.

Many offroad tires at 35PSI have a very rounded carcass with a narrow contact patch actually touching terra firma. Air down and you now have full tread width sticking to the trail. Also; tires that are aired down can wrap around obstacles for better bite.

Take a Swamper TSL and air it up to 40 PSI. You might have 2-3" of tread width touching the ground. I guarantee that you WILL NOT make it up the easier waterfalls on "Judgement Day" here in AZ. How do I know this? I ran it last week with a rig set up exactly like mine right down to the spare sitting in the tub. He could not get up the waterfall to save his life. One glance at his tires and I noticed his air pressure looked high. I popped out my digital guage and dropped his tires from 15PSI to 8PSI. He lined up again and walked right up the only line that waterfall offers.

I did this very same thing for my friend Nate on Poison Spider Mesa in Moab. He attempted to take a harder line that I had just walked up with little luck and a longer wheelbase to boot. I dropped his tires down to 8PSI and he walked right up the ledge.

It would be very easy to demonstrate this and i'm sure most here have whitnessed this over and over.

Now I ask you...If skinny tires at 35PSI grab so well; why do they require chains?

What's the first thing the driver of a two wheel drive pickup does when he/she hits the sand dunes?

Why are there remains of an old board road laid across the Imperial Sand Dunes in California? It was the only way model T's and A's could traverse the deep sand with their skinny tires.

You mentioned that the chains grip and move on as the rocks are stationary. I don't know where you've been wheeling; Robert, but our rocks move under the tires. JV is famous for this.

Why do ATV's come equipped with wide tires from the factory and require 3-4PSI per manufacturers recommendations?

We won't even touch upon the added stability of wider tires.

Ever watch trial bikes running the rocks? I was into that sport nearly 30 years ago on an old Honda trial bike. We nearly ran the tires flat to grip like pencil erasers to the rocks as we climbed like goats. As you know; dirt bike tires are very thin. Why was it necessary to air down and is still the accepted way today?

Here's the clincher....Why do flat track racing motorcycles air up for such racing. After racing flat track successfully for 5 yrs.; I can tell you why. We wanted less traction so as to slide around the corners. Too much traction would send you into the fence. Again; these are skinny tires. Motocrossers and flat trackers to this day still utilize the same procedures.

I suspect 33" tires whether chained or not, won't be climbing 6' waterfalls anytime soon. You'll be dragging on your belly plate long before your rear tires reach the waterfall face. Not to mention the trail damage as you sit there and spin.

None of the pictures you've posted depict anywhere near the difficulty of trail I regularly run. I run boulder strewn trails only.

Awaiting your comments.
Eric

Desert Jeeper,

It is frustrating to post the same thing over and over.

Okay, here it goes again: I own a set of 33x15x14.50 Boggers for the sand, over and over and over. I run these across the desert in the Coronado in Mexico as well as the Sonora. Narrow tires cannot work in these conitions at all, especially sand. Down there I need traction by width, and the lugs for forward momentum.

I guess the best thing since these post can go on forever pointlessly, and I hope you read these words clearly so there is no confusion, is to present it this way for a change of pace:

In VEX, and the others before it, I run about 28 to 32 pounds of air. When I do air down to say 20 or so, with the chains on, it is mostly to swell out the chains more so they are taught. Based on your response, I guess you didn't read any of my post at all before this one.

I sense there is nothing to offer after 40 years of doing this stuff, on a very regular basis, in far more severe places than JV (been there and it is wonderful, years ago, same for Moab) like the Darien Gap and other places.

So, since I am the only one on the planet set up like VEX, compared to the Borged clones by legion, it would make sense then to try it and see what happens with your own group. Try it with a narrow tire about 25 lbs. and one set of chains and see how it does.

Please try and open your mind a little bit: I went the wide tire route, for 15 years....I still have a set I trailer and use, very often, where needed...... I really do understand. Honest. I'm not dumb, really. Too, I've watched this all evolve over 4 decades. Gee, their might be a tiny nugget of fact in that, shouldn't there be?

Besides, if you try it, 'grayskull' doesn't take over due to brain washing, long before it's time customairly for anyone to be stuck in their ways.

Is that a fair suggestion? And you're basing your summation on a few Jeep photos of just one trip, out of 40 years worth.

What da ya think?

[upnovr]

i find it amusing that what comes from robert is "fact" and everything else is "opinion".

[Robert A.M. Stephens]

Originally posted by upnovr
i find it amusing that what comes from robert is "fact" and everything else is "opinion".

I find it amusing that you all have a dogma of fact, yet, have any of you ever tried anything pertaining to this thread.

If not, how are you so sure. Could their be options, possibly. That is the issue. What I have stated is fact. Yes. But it certainly isn't the end run or the only point, issue, etc. I offer my experience. If you are unbale to grasp that in mistaking it for something else, you have a problem you may wish to grow out of.

[TObject]

If I remember correctly, TJ owner's manual specifically cautions against using metal chains. Thoughts?

[Robert J. Yates]

I've run plenty of chained up rigs in soft and/or goopy conditions but I certainly don't think I would like to run them on my rig at JV or Table Mesa.

Mainly because I simply cannot see how you are not breaking parts with them Robert. While I am a great fan of "stockish" axles and in particular the D30 (between the weight of your rig and the effect a chain can have when it grabs), it simply amazes me that you manage to keep your front u-joints together much less the R&P.

All that being said, I really would like to see your set-up in action on the rocks - you need to make a stop in So Cal when out on a trip and prove us "doubters" wrong

[speaceman]

I have one more question. I understand your use of 2 sets of tires (wide and skinny) depending on the terrain you are running, Robert and why you have made that division.

Let's say you are going to take a cross country trip in your jeep, where you are going to hit every concievable terrain type (sand, snow, mud, rocks, logging trails, rocky mountain passes, etc), which set of tires do you bring along and why?

[DsrtJeeper]

Originally posted by Robert A.M. Stephens
Desert Jeeper,

It is frustrating to post the same thing over and over.

Okay, here it goes again: I own a set of 33x15x14.50 Boggers for the sand, over and over and over. I run these across the desert in the Coronado in Mexico as well as the Sonora. Narrow tires cannot work in these conitions at all, especially sand. Down there I need traction by width, and the lugs for forward momentum.

I guess the best thing since these post can go on forever pointlessly, and I hope you read these words clearly so there is no confusion, is to present it this way for a change of pace:

In VEX, and the others before it, I run about 28 to 32 pounds of air. When I do air down to say 20 or so, with the chains on, it is mostly to swell out the chains more so they are taught. Based on your response, I guess you didn't read any of my post at all before this one.

I sense there is nothing to offer after 40 years of doing this stuff, on a very regular basis, in far more severe places than JV (been there and it is wonderful, years ago, same for Moab) like the Darien Gap and other places.

So, since I am the only one on the planet set up like VEX, compared to the Borged clones by legion, it would make sense then to try it and see what happens with your own group. Try it with a narrow tire about 25 lbs. and one set of chains and see how it does.

Please try and open your mind a little bit: I went the wide tire route, for 15 years....I still have a set I trailer and use, very often, where needed...... I really do understand. Honest. I'm not dumb, really. Too, I've watched this all evolve over 4 decades. Gee, their might be a tiny nugget of fact in that, shouldn't there be?

Besides, if you try it, 'grayskull' doesn't take over due to brain washing, long before it's time customairly for anyone to be stuck in their ways.

Is that a fair suggestion? And you're basing your summation on a few Jeep photos of just one trip, out of 40 years worth.

What da ya think?

Robert;
Please bare with us here. This has hit us all like algebra in the 70's! Pictures are worth 1000 words.

My statement about your pictures was not a dig at you. I'm wanting to see this phenomenon in action. Pics would greatly help. I'd love to just try your way, but it involves money for new rims, tires and chains. That and the fact that i'll most likely be blacklisted from the groups I wheel with.

I'd like to think there has been many great minds involved in the evolution of four wheeling over the years. There are people out there who have more than your "40 years" of wheeling experience. There are countless books written by these men. I guess what i'm getting at is that you are the one and only person i've seen or heard of that runs chains and small, skinny tires for added traction on rocky trails. Why has this never caught on? I'm sure you've shown up 1000's of rigs with Vex's setup over those years. You'd think there would be just one guy in JV or AZ running your setup. Afterall; you're not the only wheeler with a great mind.
I'd like to think that farmers are a pretty crafty bunch working on limited budgets. Having grown up on a dairy farm in the great Northeast; I learned alot from these crafty farmers. I'm sitting here wondering why in the world; these dumb farmers walked miles out of fields to a fellow farmer's house after getting stuck in a feild on their tractors. Most of the farmers I knew all owned chains for winter use on two wheel drive tractors. Most filled the rear tires with calcium and water to add weight to the footprint. You'd think just one of them would have come up with the idea of using chains in the feilds.

I notice you like to skip over questions that are often posted. This does not help any of us as they are pertinent. Please reread my above novel and consider the "trials bike" example. Keep in mind that these type of motorsports involve sponsorship by leading tire companies. That's millions of dollars in R&D spent by some pretty swift engineers. Sponsorships, big money and some of the best engineering minds in the world and yet these guys air down for better traction with a skinny tire.

Thanks for your previous reply and it did clear up a couple of things for me. Somewhere I did miss that you still use wide tires in select spots.

This overall has been very good discussion yet noone seems convinced yet. Unfortunately; the burden of proof lies on you. I know this to be a difficult thing. Hang in there and get us more pictures or possibly a video. This would help tremendously. Keep in mind that most of us here are rock oriented. Here in AZ; we climb alot of waterfalls with very deep undercuts that would swallow a 33" tire. Often times; these falls are literally vertical at 6' in height or greater. The guys in JV are having to negotiate large, moving boulders and extreme off camber situations. I wouldn't even consider running the harder trails in either area with 33" tires. What would be really scarey is being off camber with a heavy Jeep fitted with stock width axles and pizza cutters.

You seem to be hanging on to your examples from your B-day trip. Please consider that none of us here have wheeled with you or the two guys from Ca. We have no idea how good of drivers either is. Even the best driver can have a bad day. The three vehicles were different as well as the drivers. I'm not a fan of the RE 5.5 Long Arm lift for one reason...It yeilds a good 7" of lift. That coupled with a body lift and you have an unstable rig. You with your 33" tires and less lift have a better COG. This alone makes a huge difference on off camber situations. We won't even get into the frontend unloading involved with climbing. Those long coils don't help a bit for steep climbs. Were these guys aired down to the correct pressures? Where was the majority of weight placed in their vehicles? How well do the Canadian rigs turn with such a tall lift? Are they running the stock Jeep steering? There are many factors that can lead to breakage, added traction, or carnage. We weren't there; Robert. Seeing is believing.

Again; i'm not trying to stir the pot here. I'm looking for answers that will convince me to switch over to your setup. You won't find a more understanding group of Jeepers than you have here on this board. Being defensive often turns people off and the great dialogue ends. I've been guilty of this myself. If you pop in here introducing new ideas; you'd better be ready for a host of questions. You are trying to change a man's way of thinking afterall.

Respectfully yours;
Eric

[Robert A.M. Stephens]

Originally posted by DsrtJeeper
Robert;
Please bare with us here. This has hit us all like algebra in the 70's! Pictures are worth 1000 words.

Great post this and great data too. I think I understand better about the perhaps 'newness' or strangeness of it.

My statement about your pictures was not a dig at you. I'm wanting to see this phenomenon in action. Pics would greatly help. I'd love to just try your way, but it involves money for new rims, tires and chains. That and the fact that I'll most likely be blacklisted from the groups I wheel with.

I agree fully with you and now understand much better. And the cost factor is true and you are correct by pointing this out. What I'd do is perhaps somehow experiment. That is what I do if I don't want to dish out a bunch of cash on something I've read, or a hunch, or what have you. Good point. I've got some photo of this stuff, and it has been over many years and some trips long ago too. But without them, the words are meaningless actually, without some stronger or more blatant form of evidence. I understand.

Among my many downfalls, especially now as I am alone, I think in terms, "gee, why don't they think about this", or, "why dont they 'believe' me......". It's not grayskull so much as I've been doing it so long I have to stop and think of my very statement that this is currently how its done (ref. wide tires) and so it is hard without evidence to claim the opposite. My fault on that.

This trip was an eye opener and the one in March in western WA, whereby I was around many competent Jeepers like you guys here, and they were impressed and ask all sorts of questions about VEX's goofy set up.

So much so, one guy with the radified YJ on coils, locked, etc, even bought my one set of chains on the spot at Evans Creek after watching this set up on VEX work all day.

So, yes, seeing is believing.

I'd like to think there has been many great minds involved in the evolution of four wheeling over the years. There are people out there who have more than your "40 years" of wheeling experience. There are countless books written by these men. I guess what i'm getting at is that you are the one and only person i've seen or heard of that runs chains and small, skinny tires for added traction on rocky trails. Why has this never caught on? I'm sure you've shown up 1000's of rigs with Vex's setup over those years. You'd think there would be just one guy in JV or AZ running your setup. Afterall; you're not the only wheeler with a great mind.

, that comeback at the end was hilarious. No, I'm the only one that is so f*cked up he would run some get up like VEX Seriously, you are right. When Jeepin' out of the country, in severe places like JV, you see more rigs like VEX, but that is not the fad here. And I've never 'showed' up 1000s :;D But I've been to places like Moab where I get teasted and harrased about VEx only to be praised with a little good 'gee whiz', stuff how it was all done with VEXs get up.

As to your inquiry as a rhetorical one, I don't know. I'm doing a history of the wide tire development and I know it came out of the long forgotten high end sand drags and sand hill climb competitions, which was the norm and craze like our rock crawling is now for the last 13 years or so. But it is cost and there is far proift in a wide tire than some 33" pizza cutter like mine.

As to why it never caught on, I don't know. I Always wondered that too. Also, I don't get around big groups like a jamboree like I did 35 years ago. When I head south I end up in Moab, Las Cruces, etc, on my way to Mexico alone or meet up with someoe on the trail and we wheel together. So, never had a large audience whereby this retro deal could be observed by the 'unwashed masses', hahahahahaha

I'd like to think that farmers are a pretty crafty bunch working on limited budgets. Having grown up on a dairy farm in the great Northeast; I learned alot from these crafty farmers. I'm sitting here wondering why in the world; these dumb farmers walked miles out of fields to a fellow farmer's house after getting stuck in a feild on their tractors. Most of the farmers I knew all owned chains for winter use on two wheel drive tractors. Most filled the rear tires with calcium and water to add weight to the footprint. You'd think just one of them would have come up with the idea of using chains in the feilds.

On the other Eric's board at Ultimate Jeep, a fella there was an easterner and said the same thing. Out here in the west (don't know about AZ) and the northwest, chains are a given. They fill their tires like the skidder in this thread I posted, with calcium choride and lead for weight in addition to the chains. It is very common here since it also areates the ground well and does not tear it up either. Logging, farming ranching (what we used to do), all, use chains on most everything.

I notice you like to skip over questions that are often posted. This does not help any of us as they are pertinent. Please reread my above novel and consider the "trials bike" example. Keep in mind that these type of motorsports involve sponsorship by leading tire companies. That's millions of dollars in R&D spent by some pretty swift engineers. Sponsorships, big money and some of the best engineering minds in the world and yet these guys air down for better traction with a skinny tire.

It wasn't skipping over, it was so much data and the dirt bike-ATV data I thought it didn't apply because rate ratio to the tire is very light compared to a 3 ton Jeep on 33x9.50s". Too, keep in mind, the whole thing is the money also, which I mentioned above in other posts. A wide tire costs more. The guys that ATV up in the 'State Section' about a mile from my house, young guys in all forms of ATVs, some run little chains on the front of their 4wheelers, hold overs from wintertime running. When ask, they say the rigs are so light and the tires available so wide, they won't dig that well, instead they spin. So, they keep the chains on.

Thanks for your previous reply and it did clear up a couple of things for me. Somewhere I did miss that you still use wide tires in select spots.

This overall has been very good discussion yet noone seems convinced yet. Unfortunately; the burden of proof lies on you.

This is very fun indeed. And you are correct about brunden of proof, but without being there I would be hard to pressed,even with photos, to establish a point. Again, seeing is believing. It's better to see it and then make ones own conclusion.

I know this to be a difficult thing. Hang in there and get us more pictures or possibly a video. This would help tremendously. Keep in mind that most of us here are rock oriented. Here in AZ; we climb alot of waterfalls with very deep undercuts that would swallow a 33" tire. Often times; these falls are literally vertical at 6' in height or greater. The guys in JV are having to negotiate large, moving boulders and extreme off camber situations. I wouldn't even consider running the harder trails in either area with 33" tires. What would be really scarey is being off camber with a heavy Jeep fitted with stock width axles and pizza cutters.

Good point. If there is an option, do you not try to avoid undercuts. An undercut is the ultimate strain on drivetrain, which you all know, whereby making a tire go up and backward while the rig itself tries to move forward. Are the undecuts scooped just to fit a 35" inch tire or larger?

Too, a 6' foot waterfall, if vertical like a flat 90 degree wall, I would think this would be impossble to climb without winching. The 'waterfalls' that I encountered in Moad, Young America, Montana, JV, Dusy, etc, have some form of incline that some form of vehicle can get a bite on and get up and over? Explain a little more for me, please.

You seem to be hanging on to your examples from your B-day trip. Please consider that none of us here have wheeled with you or the two guys from Ca. We have no idea how good of drivers either is. Even the best driver can have a bad day. The three vehicles were different as well as the drivers.

Good point, again. I only mentioned that trip since it is the topic of this thread. The thread has now moved to chains and narrow tires.

I'm not a fan of the RE 5.5 Long Arm lift for one reason...It yeilds a good 7" of lift. That coupled with a body lift and you have an unstable rig. You with your 33" tires and less lift have a better COG. This alone makes a huge difference on off camber situations.

We won't even get into the frontend unloading involved with climbing. Those long coils don't help a bit for steep climbs. Were these guys aired down to the correct pressures? Where was the majority of weight placed in their vehicles? How well do the Canadian rigs turn with such a tall lift? Are they running the stock Jeep steering? There are many factors that can lead to breakage, added traction, or carnage. We weren't there; Robert. Seeing is believing.

I'm always learning new things and love this too about Jeepin'. Wth that stated, strangely, you've brought up a good topic. My agent's Rubicon has the RE 5.5" as well as Brian's Rubcion. I didn't know this about instability in those lifts. Brian's Rubicon had the 3" back spacing, Warn's full floating front end, widest of all tires, and was, of the three Jeeps, the most stable in off camber spots. He had no problem. So, I don't know what to think on that.

This is also new to me and why I was lurking on Pirate 4x4 to learn about the coils. I didn't know the coil set up 'unloads' on climbs if too tall. Explain please. This is new to me and very intriguing for a non-TJ owner.

As for them, neither aired down the first day and overall did poorly because of such a baloony tire set up, as Brian mentioned in his quote above I posted. The last 1500 feet up Pilot's Knob had steep, 6-9' tall 80 degree vertiacal shelfs covered with moss over the rock and it was raining too, and this was a handicap in severe terms for the two TJs. I was running chains on the back is all, and the narrow tires did better with chains.

They bent tie rods on rocks, tailgate while locked with tires powered forward, and sliding backwards into a tree in spit of trying to go forward, and other mishaps, all minor.

The second day, they aired down. They did much better which is understandable completely and why a wide tire is aired down in the first place. My only change wa to run one set chains on the front.

Again; i'm not trying to stir the pot here. I'm looking for answers that will convince me to switch over to your setup. You won't find a more understanding group of Jeepers than you have here on this board. Being defensive often turns people off and the great dialogue ends. I've been guilty of this myself. If you pop in here introducing new ideas; you'd better be ready for a host of questions. You are trying to change a man's way of thinking afterall.

Respectfully yours;
Eric

There is no stirring the pot at all and every post has been fun and this exchange is how it should be along with everyone elses here in this thread. I love it!!!. It is also good because as each of you answer, like your excellent responses, I get to see and learn things I didn't know yet either.

And everyone's dissent is superb. Save for a few but that is the net. And too, you all are basing this on some claims by someone you've never wheeled with, a whacko running a freak show rig, totally retro out of some Farmall Magazine ads from the 50s Gee, no sh*t there might be a few questions.

I hope there's more, too.

Now, my 'book' is longer than yours so , na,na,na,na na, na........

[Jeeper]

Just wait until we discuss the effectiveness of Revolver Shackles BTW, I ran Revolvers for about 4 years and loved them until I went SOA.

Jeeper

[Robert J. Yates]

Robert - would you address the breakage (if any) issues for me please. Thanx

[Robert A.M. Stephens]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
I've run plenty of chained up rigs in soft and/or goopy conditions but I certainly don't think I would like to run them on my rig at JV or Table Mesa.

Mainly because I simply cannot see how you are not breaking parts with them Robert. While I am a great fan of "stockish" axles and in particular the D30 (between the weight of your rig and the effect a chain can have when it grabs), it simply amazes me that you manage to keep your front u-joints together much less the R&P.

All that being said, I really would like to see your set-up in action on the rocks - you need to make a stop in So Cal when out on a trip and prove us "doubters" wrong

I would love to go with you guys too. Blaine has invited me and my main squeeze to come down there for Thanksgiving in the desert, which is my style.

I'd love to see all your rigs too.

[Robert A.M. Stephens]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
Robert - would you address the breakage (if any) issues for me please. Thanx

In regards to breakage with the other two Jeeps, it was light. The one TJ hit a rock and I winched him off backwards, it bent his tire rod. With the Rubicon, as I was explaining above in response to Desert Jeeper, Brian went backwards, sliding, as he ws trying to go forward locked up (it was steep and wet and very rough terrain) into a tree that bent his carrier and tailgate. Fender flares got bent by silding into trees, in slip-n-slide motion because of off camber terrain and thick foilage as well as trees. Other things that wer just Jeep stuff, but vulnerable in this sort of terrain failed but was all minor, basically.

It was steep and the spinning tires, wide, on that steep of ground, makes things squirrelly. But both of their rigs, however, were very competently set up and they were both good drivers.

In one case, on a sloped cliff, kinda wild, the big logs, unless hit correctly, make for a slide which on that slope the one TJ did---right down the truck to living tree--just like very wet granite. Very off camber and side hill. We all winched it up to the ridge top, saving a rollover down the bank. The driver, Steve, did really well though.

Other than that and typical goof ups, that was the limit of damage.

[Robert J. Yates]

Thanx Robert but I was actually referring to that of your Jeep over time - not that on your friends for that one trip in particular.

I'm thinking that a heavy Jeep, small r&p and 297 size u-joints don't mix very well with chained up tires. Thoughts?

[Robert A.M. Stephens]

Originally posted by speaceman
I have one more question. I understand your use of 2 sets of tires (wide and skinny) depending on the terrain you are running, Robert and why you have made that division.

Let's say you are going to take a cross country trip in your jeep, where you are going to hit every concievable terrain type (sand, snow, mud, rocks, logging trails, rocky mountain passes, etc), which set of tires do you bring along and why?

The narrow tires pizza cutters and chains.

I run the narrow tires 99% of the time and would, in all terrain, with the chains off road. The Boggers, which I hate in the rock 'V' washes at the end of the Diabla Roo, like the photo the fella posted on page 1 of this thread in the notch, on the south western end of the Coronado Desert in Mexico, since they slide sidways and I don't use them or have the experience with them beyond a little bit in rocks before I change them out to the pizza cutters.

In the desert, however, since the sand is so soft, and VEX is heavy--pulling my loaded Army Jeep trailer too, they are wide enough at about 5-8 lbs. of air to keep me high and dry, and the directional lugs gives me perfect forward motion as long as I don't stick my foot in it.



But if I could find a better wide sand tire, short of a sand paddle, I'd trade out the Boggers in a minute. They are nerve shattering, teeth rattling and shakes VEX to pieces on harder surfaces while traveling.

The narrow tires give me over all superb traction in all terrain, save for sand.




My last year for wide tires. This was a brand new 1981 CJ-7, with about 200 miles on it in these photo. I had a 3" Rancho lift, 12.50x15x31 Thompson Terra Tires, Detroits, and a 8000 lb. Warn winch. I loved this 7, but after the end of that year, the wide tires went away forever for overall off roading..............

What did it was the Young America Trail in the central-southern Sierras, which eventually hooks up with the Dusy (used to be called "The Mexican Dam" trail 40 years ago), and there, in the rock piles and washes, I got tired of squishing over moving boulders, dragging stuff, and so on. Went to Thorpe's Jeep (long gone now) and changed out those wheels and tires. He 'gave' me 5 standard 'farmer jack' steel, stock, narrow rims as I call them, and a set of Goodyear EXTRA Grips, 32x15x8.00. I bought some chains at South Lake Tahoe and headed south on 395 to the Young America for a second week.

........and for me, after that, the rest was history......

[speaceman]

Well, I'm withholding any judgement until I see small tires and chains work for myself or others on this board do, but I really can't imagine trying to traverse bumpy terrain in fully aired up tires.

The times I have tried it, no matter the size tire I was running, I quickly aired down just to soften the ride.

Like you said, you know what works for you.

I just have a hard time accepting it as a possibility for myself based on a variety of things I have seen out on the trials when I've gone wheeling with different rigs and set ups that run contrary to what you are saying (at least if the chains are left out of the equation).

With chains in the equation, I don't know what to think, as it is an apples to oranges comparison at that point.

[Jeeper]

Again, I need to see a Pizza cutter with chains out-perform an aired-down wide tire to believe it. A quote from a famous movie says it best "No, but we're willing to learn"

Here's the issue that I struggle with...contact area! In my mind (as little as it is) I believe that you will receive more traction from a tire that conforms to the terrain than you will from a metalic chain wrapped around a fully inflated tire. Traction in my world is having as much surface area of your driving force on the obstacle as possible. i.e.:



I can only imagine a chain clad pizza cutter slipping off and dropping down into the hole, thus creating a challenging escape. OR...the chains grabbing corners of the rock and causing undue stress on the U-jpoints and other vital parts of the drive-line.

I really need to see this in action!!!! ROBERT....come on down and show us!!!!

Jeeper

[mrblaine]

I don't think you'll find a more open minded bunch of folks that here as far as trying new things (new to us).

I was one of the first handfuls to try the MT/R and was repeatedly told that not only were they soft, they would only last about 15,000 miles, would be loud, the sidewalls were reminiscient of the MT and they were overpriced.

Then I was told there was no way in hell that an aluminum flat skid would work, wouldn't slide, wasn't strong enough, and was a waste of time, money and energy. I'm still running the same one I put on 3+ years ago and it hasn't hung me up once.

Here's what I know and can prove. I essentially run a tall skinny tire when you compare aspect ratios. The width of my tires is about a third of their height. Robert's tires in width are slightly less than a third of their height. Is that close enough for comparison?

My tires do not work until I air them down. I can prove that in 5 minutes in my driveway.

So, I'm gonna withhold judgement until Thanksgiving gets here and me and Robert are gonna go wheeling. I suspect it will be an eye opening experience all the way around.

[Jeeper]

Originally posted by mrblaine
I don't think you'll find a more open minded bunch of folks that here as far as trying new things (new to us)........<snip>

Cool...can we talk about Revolvers now? Remember, that's how I ended up on this forum

Jeeper

[Robert A.M. Stephens]

Originally posted by mrblaine
I don't think you'll find a more open minded bunch of folks that here as far as trying new things (new to us).

I was one of the first handfuls to try the MT/R and was repeatedly told that not only were they soft, they would only last about 15,000 miles, would be loud, the sidewalls were reminiscient of the MT and they were overpriced.

Then I was told there was no way in hell that an aluminum flat skid would work, wouldn't slide, wasn't strong enough, and was a waste of time, money and energy. I'm still running the same one I put on 3+ years ago and it hasn't hung me up once.

Here's what I know and can prove. I essentially run a tall skinny tire when you compare aspect ratios. The width of my tires is about a third of their height. Robert's tires in width are slightly less than a third of their height. Is that close enough for comparison?

My tires do not work until I air them down. I can prove that in 5 minutes in my driveway.

So, I'm gonna withhold judgement until Thanksgiving gets here and me and Robert are gonna go wheeling. I suspect it will be an eye opening experience all the way around.

Agreed fully and fun too. If you read my response to desert Jeeper, the long one with all his quotes broken down and addressed, I covered much of this.

I air down to about 18-25, mostly to keep the chains a little more taught on the carcass. Your ratio is exactly correct, comparing to VEX. I like the heavier weight for traction. I [b]do[/i] hang the spare tire on the front bull bar on very very long, steep, off camber climbs to put that weight over the front.

However, with my new Revolver Shackles, after running them 3 months now, work in complete opposite of all the 99.99% Bullsh*t claims out on the net's off road lala land whereby they are supposed to kill themselves and me and everything around them, they work in keeping the front end down more, not the 'unloading' nonsense as has been claimed so much by rumor. So, putting the tire on the front may not be nessessary anymore.

As you pointed out, everything runs in opposite, with your own applications, as you have learned and are learning still.

Lastly, in the very latest issue of JP magazine, questionable tome that it is, they finally finished their old retro CJ-6 with the Buick 225 V-6 (greatest off road engine ever made!!!!!!!!!) and stock pizza cutters on 5.5" rims (like VEX's). Thus, in their report, said, "with the narrow stock tire retreads I was amazed at the traction I got and the places I could go........" Really? What a thought? And from JP magazine no less.....

Duh.

[Robert A.M. Stephens]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
Thanx Robert but I was actually referring to that of your Jeep over time - not that on your friends for that one trip in particular.

I'm thinking that a heavy Jeep, small r&p and 297 size u-joints don't mix very well with chained up tires. Thoughts?

Hey Robert,

Forgive me, I misunderstood, I thought you were referencing the fellas from last weekend. I want o answer your question as it pertains to VEX.

That is the longest I've had any Jeep over the 26 I've had since 1965, whatever the reason.

After I got it and rebuilt it from its totaled out state and it was off roadable, I then started the drivetrain mods. This was 1992 at that point.

I went with a fresh 6, Cliffordized, T-18YB, 4:1 in the 300, 1 Ton Ford DLs with CVs F & R at the transfercase, farmer jack rims and ARBs.

Failure before these mods were; blown front hubs, blown front spindle bearings and shaft collars, blown axles both right and left front, inners and outers, (had already went with superior 20s for the AMC 20 and welded and trussed that for the rear), spun up licorice and explosion for my OEM front and rear DLs. Blown T-176 tranny, more blown hubs, etc, all because of: running chains front and rear with the ARBS engaged..

So, went with super D30 front end, 4.56s with the 33", 1 ton DLs, etc, etc, and viola, haven't busted anything since early 1993. With the frame lined with 1" plate that eliminated frame cracking. Gusseted bumpers front and rear with 1" gussets took care of frame 'diamonding' out from severe off camber flex and winching heavy things too.

[Tumbleweed]

Well, if anyone wants to really test this theory out-I have a set of 4-33x9.50 snow tires/ siped- mounted on 8" aftermarket TJ rims. I also have a set of chains available for one pair of them. Anyone that wants to ship them both ways can have them for this test. ( I need them back by about Oct 1) I expect shipping to be costly. Located in Boise, Idaho.