Winch Weight Ideas

[Daless2]

Winch Weight Ideas

Good morning folks, I am trying to help the folks out who run the ERoCC (Easter Rock Crawling Championship) event out here.

During these rock crawling events there are occasions when competitors are allowed to use their winch, but they must use an approved winch weight.

As it turns out, most of the things being used for winch weights aren't very safe at all, and this is turning into a problem.

I thought I would solve the problem by simply having ERoCC provide a have a good, safe, easy to use winch weight available for use by a competing team , on each obstacle.

Any suggestions?

I am aware of the brand www.WinchWeight.com Is there anything else out there?

Any home made solutions to this problem that perhaps I could build and donate to this group.

Cost is a consideration as ERoCC is run by a non-profit organization, and they would need 12 to 14 of these things.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Frank

[Tumbleweed]

Frank; if you want cheap and easy- how about a big truck inner tube, say 24" long; tied in the middle. Fill each end with sand and tie it off. Baling wire and those tough tubes should hold up to some abuse. These also make great weights for use in snow country for traction aids.
Now for the thinking part: I am probably wrong here but always thought a winch cable weight was designed to give the cable an excuse to wrap/tangle itself up thereby causing it to shorten itself and eventually bring it to earth/ essentially shortening it's "airtime". Maybe this idea was brought on by the use of jackets, floormats, etc which weigh almost nothing but work.

[mrblaine]

If I were a sanctioning body and in charge of writing safety rules for winching around crowded areas filled with idiot, alcohol modified spectators, the following rule would be in effect.

No competitor shall be allowed to enter this competition without a synthetic winch line spooled on any winch that may be used in any aspect of the competition.

Appropriate verbage should also be in there to come up with approved manufacturers also.

With the synthetic line, no weight is needed. I have watched them break and they are near harmless. I personally would have no hesitation about standing next to one under load. They do not store energy, and therefore have none to impart under load.


Here is my logic and the background behind it. I have a friend who is an engineer type. Highly intelligent, highly mechanical, very cynical and spends a lot of time disproving myths and old husbands tales with science and common sense.

He and I have beat this whole line weight subject to death and then some. Here is the crux of why you would most likely fail to control a cable with a weight. How do you predict where a winch line under load will break? There is no accurate way to do this and if a weight or mat were to work, and that's a big if, you would have to know the location of the break.

In reality, that is near impossible to do. Say you place a weight in the center of a line that has a 100 feet spooled out and you play the odds by placing the weight in the center. What if it breaks 48 feet out and spectators are within that distance?

Another thing to consider is the actual mechanics of the recoil itself. How can you predict the exact dynamics of the broken end to ensure that it will become entangled in a mat or weight bag tossed over it? What if it just pulls straight through and never slows down?

I am not for a minute saying that these commonly accepted practices don't work, I just don't think they are foolproof enough for a spectator laden course.

The sport already has one very black mark against it in the form of Mr. Campbell and the loss of his legs. I don't think it can stand another one, and if Mr. Campbell were not the father of one of the competitors, I doubt that RRCA would still be a sanctioning body.

[Daless2]

Hi Don, Hi Blaine,

Thank you both for your comments, they are just what I am looking for.

Blaine, personally I couldn't agree with you more.

I do plan to copy your post exactly as you have shared your thoughts and get it to the folks who run this event.

While it would only be speculation on my part, I don't think it is doable at this moment in time to require synthetic winch line of all competitors. But I will leave that up to the organizers.

The synthetic winch line clearly solves the safety and easy of use issue at a much higher level and that would be preferred, but again, I don't know how doable it is right now.

I became involved in this issue when I saw competitors using some really ridiculous "things" that were clearly unsafe as winch weights. I managed to get a stop to those actions, simply becuase it made since to stop them.

After the last event, this topic came up again, not only for the ineffectiveness of the winch weight policy but also the frustration of getting everyone to follow it.

My solution was to have the organization purchase a winch weight for each obstacle, and require that weight to be used by any competitor using a winch on that obstacle. Perhaps not ideal, but certainly better then what is in place today.

Problem with this is cost to the organization.

Being a nonprofit event organization they hope to be successful financially to support their nonprofit actives. To date they are operating at a minor loss.

Thus my question soliciting ideas on what could be made, inexpensively and be more effective then the ridiculous things currently being used.

Don, I like the inner tube idea, and I will look into that myself. Maybe put one together tomorrow.

Blaine, your suggestions and position have made me give some additional thought to this.

Smell the wood burning?

Perhaps the entry fee can be raised by $100. With that fee going to purchase synthetic winch line for the competitor to be installed at the tech inspection.

Question for you, who's synthetic line do you recommend? What's the cost? and do you have a contact?

Along with any ideas on how to put a few winch weights together, I would also like to recommend they "Require the synthetic winch line" and possibly provide a solution for sourcing and how to go about doing this.

Thanks again for your relies.

Frank

[Paradiddle]

Anyone who can afford to put together a rock crawler suitable for competition can pop for another $200 item.

Synthetic winch lines are not that expensive. Heck with enough pressure maybe Warn would offer one with a synthetic line already installed.

I know that I would have paid another $150-$200 for my HS9500i to have the synthetic line already installed.

The only other solution is to keep all spectators at least twice the distance of a winch line away - but you still leave the spotter, driver, and judges susceptable to injury.

Jeff

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Daless2
Hi Don, Hi Blaine,

Thank you both for your comments, they are just what I am looking for.

Blaine, personally I couldn't agree with you more.

I do plan to copy your post exactly as you have shared your thoughts and get it to the folks who run this event.

While it would only be speculation on my part, I don't think it is doable at this moment in time to require synthetic winch line of all competitors. But I will leave that up to the organizers.

The synthetic winch line clearly solves the safety and easy of use issue at a much higher level and that would be preferred, but again, I don't know how doable it is right now.

I became involved in this issue when I saw competitors using some really ridiculous "things" that were clearly unsafe as winch weights. I managed to get a stop to those actions, simply becuase it made since to stop them.

After the last event, this topic came up again, not only for the ineffectiveness of the winch weight policy but also the frustration of getting everyone to follow it.

Frank, your organizers need to take control. If you have been to an RRCA event, you understand what I am speaking of. The judges are as much in control as is possible. They are the authority and if a spectator gets on the course, they stop the action until the course is clear. If a competitor gets into an unsafe situation, they first warn and then threaten DQ if the practice is continued. While not perfect, other bodies could take lessons.

My solution was to have the organization purchase a winch weight for each obstacle, and require that weight to be used by any competitor using a winch on that obstacle. Perhaps not ideal, but certainly better then what is in place today.

Problem with this is cost to the organization.

Being a nonprofit event organization they hope to be successful financially to support their nonprofit actives. To date they are operating at a minor loss.

Thus my question soliciting ideas on what could be made, inexpensively and be more effective then the ridiculous things currently being used.

Don, I like the inner tube idea, and I will look into that myself. Maybe put one together tomorrow.

Blaine, your suggestions and position have made me give some additional thought to this.

Smell the wood burning?

Perhaps the entry fee can be raised by $100. With that fee going to purchase synthetic winch line for the competitor to be installed at the tech inspection.

Question for you, who's synthetic line do you recommend? What's the cost? and do you have a contact?

Along with any ideas on how to put a few winch weights together, I would also like to recommend they "Require the synthetic winch line" and possibly provide a solution for sourcing and how to go about doing this.

Thanks again for your relies.

Frank

If you could do an extensive search, you would find that I have pretty much kept the recommendation to myself until there were competitors to the MP line. I have felt this way a long time, but could not in fairness to the competitors suggest the adoption of such a policy. That would have put MP in the position of being the only supplier and I did not find that fair to the competitors.

There are alternate suppliers now, so I have no qualms about it being a requirement to compete now.

As to suppliers, it is a Samson product and is carried by Rockstomper and a few others. There is also a competitor to the MP line that is not a Samson product.


I have a lot of experience with MasterPull and recommend them quite highly. Another recommendation I would make is a minimum diameter of 3/8 for durability and physical size. Emil at MP has one that is around 20,000 lbs rated breaking strength.

Typically, a competitor can expect to pay in the neighborhood of 250 for a line.

Depending on how serious your group is, it is possible for me to contact Emil and work out a competitor program if the organization requires the line to compete. The worst case scenario would be 30 off of list. I can practically guarantee that price.

A verification would be needed to get the price though.

Like Jeff said, if you can't afford a 300 dollar winch line, perhaps you should consider a different hobby. I know that all the competitors in RRCA spent twice that amount when the new cage rules came out.

A few more things Frank. The safety hook that can be ordered from Emil is about the safest thing going. It latches shut and won't open until released. A huge safety factor.

[TJRON]

Frank,
I use the legs from cut off jeans for lots of things. I would think it would be quite easy to fill the ends with sand and throw them over the winch line. Maybe one wrap over the line would be even better. Having a couple of these bags at each obstacle would be free and easy.....
Heck, you could even use the whole pair of old jeans!
Ron

[Daless2]

Good Morning Jeff, Good Morning Ron,

Thanks for taking the time to add your thoughts and comments.

Jeff,
I fully agree with you. If you can afford a rig to compete they certainly should be able to afford a few hundred dollars more for some safe winch rope.

My comments on affordability were geared toward the non-profit organization that runs this event, and the thought of this organization supplying winch weights of some type.

Until Blaine brought up the synthetic winch line solution, quite honestly I had not given that approach a thought.

The next ERoCC event is three weeks from tomorrow.

Ron, I really like your solution a lot. I think it will add a level of safety to this event in the short run, and I am going to recommend we do this.

A few yards of Denim from Wal-Mart can't cost that much, and I have a friend with an industrial sowing machine.

I think for the long run I will be strongly recommending the synthetic winch line as a requirement to compete as this is clearly the Safest solution.

Blaine was kind enough to call me last evening and we discussed different ideas on how these guys just might be able to make this happen.

I'll keep you posted as this grows to fruition.

Once again, thanks for all your comments and suggestions. It never stops amazing me how one thought, one idea, one direction can get turned on it's ear for something that is far superior to the original though.

This is goodness.

Frank

[Jim B]

Frank,

There should be a rule to check these cables from every vehicle at the beginning of each event day. People are lazy and cheap, they will continue to use a frayed or kinked cable until they think it had enough or it breaks and causes a catastrophe. If upon inspection it was determine that the cable (or rope) is unsafe, they should not be allowed to compete until the problem was corrected with a new cable (or rope).

I personally just changed my cable, there is pros and cons against both the rope and cable. I personally will not use a rope as I've seen 3 brake in front of me (3 too many) in my last trip with one being deadly if we would not have taken the safety measure of having two winch lines attached. I've never seen a cable go in front of me in the 6 years of wheeling, I only hear about the accidents when they are mentioned.

[Tumbleweed]

Frank, if you have access to a HD sewing machine; it will work better than the tubes. The tubes are hard to attach a handle to; and hard to keep tied shut without using a lot of wire that is more prone to ripping open flesh than keeping the sand in. (I just made one; this is the voice of experience!)
Heavy denim or an old military canvas tarp (about the thickness of a Lister bag) would work better. If you make it similar to an attache case shape, you will have a place for the handle, and all square corners for ease of sewing. Handle could be a doubled piece of 1" nylon webbing. You could sew all but a small (1") section and use this for a funnel point for filling with dry sand. Closing the small opening could be Velcro.
Another option especially if size is an issue; would be to use the shot that shotgunners reload shells with. More expensive than sand-but more weight to size of bag.

[TObject]

Question: What is the difference between synthetic winch lines sold by 4x4 shops, and synthetic ropes sold in Home Depot?

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by TObject
Question: What is the difference between synthetic winch lines sold by 4x4 shops, and synthetic ropes sold in Home Depot?

Technology, fiber selection and price.

UHMWPPF is a fairly high tech material with some unique properties. It has a minimal amount of elongation under load. It has a strength to weight ratio that is nearly unmatched by any other material.

Most of the ropes in boating stores or hardware stores are garden variety polymers such as nylon, or polypropylene. While good for their intended uses, have too little strength for their size and too much stretch to be used as a winch line.

[TObject]

I actually know what that abbreviation stands for ? Ultra High Molecular Weight Poly Propylene Fiber.

The good thing about plastics is that they can be programmed to meet the widest range of desired properties.

So, the rope from Home Depot stretches? Huh, never mind then. Thanks for the answer!

[Daless2]

Hi Folks,

I want to thank everyone for your input.

Here is what I have come up with, by incorporating some of your suggestions. (Setting aside for the moment the cable vs. synthetic values and virtues.)


If I were going to design a simple winch weight these are my current thoughts.


Design requirements:

No Hard Parts or Metal what so ever
Some reasonable balance between weight and ?Surface Area? of materials used.
Cost Effective (Under $10)
Easy to use
Reasonable expectation it will stay on the cable.


Materials:

To make this you need a large piece of canvas from Wal-Mart. Denim would work as well.

You will also need two bicycle tire inner tubes, some sand, two small pieces of neoprene closed cell foam, a tube of Silicon Caulking a hand full of cable ties and a sewing machine.


Assembly:

The bicycle inner tubes will be used to hold the sand. If you used a 20? x 2.250 tube you would cut the value stem out. This would create a hole that would enable you to fill the tube up with dry playground sand.

Once filled with sand, the hole where the valve once was could be sealed with a 2.25 inch round by 4 inch long piece of closed cell neoprene foam .

The foam will be stuffed into the inner tube, and glued in place with some silicon caulk or RTV, then held in place with three plastic cable ties on each side of the valve stem hole.

Once filled and sealed, the inner tube will sit flat, doubled over on itself from the weight.

Each winch weight will need two of these inner tubes filled with sand.

Here is a drawing describing the process.




Now we need to make the winch weight drape, which will be placed over the winch cable

Heavy Duty Canvas (or Denim) can be purchased in the sewing department of Wal-Mart for $4.44 per linear yard. This stuff is 60-inches wide. You should be able to make two winch weight drapes out of one yard of material.

Cut the material to size and then fold each end over 6-inches.

These ends will need to be sewed up the side and across the top edge, accept for the middle. The middle should be left open (about 6 inches) as the access point to insert the sand filled tire inner tubes.

I know nothing about sewing, but I would think these would need to be double seamed similar to the sides on your jeans to handle the weight of the sand over time.

The inner tubes would be ?worked into these pockets?, and should stay there with no problem. Sand should not leak as the tubes are sealed.

Draw a centerline down the middle of the canvas. This is the target area where the winch cable will live when the winch weight is draped over the cable.

Cover the canvas centerline, and 6 inches on either side of the centerline, with silicon caulk from Home Depot. Mush it down like you were making a peanut butter sandwich and let it dry.

This will provide a rubberized, non-slip surface, which should help prevent slippage and keep the winch weigh in place on the cable.

Here?s a drawing of what I am trying to describe.




Anyway those are my thoughts.


If anyone can figure out how to effectively get water inside the bicycle tire inner tubes (though the valve) that would be an alternative to the sand usage.

Please give me your thoughts on this. I am sure it can be made better with your input.

Frank

PS: Two Velcro straps could be added to stick the sides together after the winch weight is placed over the cable.