What would you do in this situation?

[NAILER341]

Welcome to JeepBBS ?

there you go

Originally posted by Instaurare
It is unfortunate that thru lack of anything of substance to contribute, you are reduced to juvenile attempts at slander and character assassination. Your anti-Christian hatred and bigotry could not be any more transparent.

OK damn it, this is a subject I have watched in complete disbelief.

Scott:
He was and I hope still is your friend. I only hope you have enough huevos to deal with it all.
Ps - - Your friend put the cards on the table when you asked.

Instaurare:
First a little history. I grew up in a horribly religious family. A long long time ago an Anglican minister (not all that different than RC but at least the Anglican religion does use the prevalent language) assured me that if I chose to go MY WAY "probing and digging for avalanche victims, performing first aid to those that needed it and leading the Easter Service at the upper terminal" as opposed to putting money on a collection plate I would surly go to hell. Well it's been about 45 years since then and trust me the only heat I have ever felt is in competition.

Problem #1- You appeared to be down on abortion. Is your religion going to answer the problem of how to pay for the upbringing of the 4,000 children per day you braught up?

#2 - The gay thing, are you saying that unless others conform to YOUR BELIEFS they are socially unacceptable?

Rick: Don't let up.

Final Note - When it's over you have only one person to answer to. And that would be yourself. I don't need a priest, a rabbi, or a Bible thumping Baptist to hold my hand. What really does matter is am I comfortable with it all myself.
Garry





Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 31
Jeep: 99TJ

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Rick Bernotas
Cheap personal insults nothing. I call 'em like I see 'em, and you can continue to be on the recieving end of those comments until the time that you quit hiding your bigotry under the so-called religion you so piously wear on your sleeve. Bigot.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



It is unfortunate that thru lack of anything of substance to contribute, you are reduced to juvenile attempts at slander and character assassination. Your anti-Christian hatred and bigotry could not be any more transparent.

[Joe Dillard]

Scott,
Subjects/things like this crop up often for us in the military. We handle/deal with them according to pre-set rules & criteria. Some of these rules & regulations I'm sure the public are aware of & expect a certain degree of enforcement and compliance.

In a nut shell, if you voice your disposition of being or tending to be gay or lesbian, you will face certain regulations partially due to your initial enlistment swearing otherwise (to be strait). The outcome is not usually favorable for the outgoing/questionable service member.

Bottom Line: The military tends to make it "cut & dry".

Yes, I've met several military members who I think/suppose are not "strait". As long as there are no inappropriate behavioral patterns seen of percieved, then there are no issues.

There is no foregiveness/understanding offered for military members that I've seen in this area when behavioral patterns shift towards being openly gay or otherwise.

We as military members, are in a unique position. Our position, by regulation, doesn't allow for certain flexability.

Myself,....I would rather not (forcefully or otherwise) openly shower with those who would covet me in any way (unless of the opposite sex).


As far as him being your friend goes: If it's lasted this long without you recognising these traits, I doubt if it should seriously effect your future relationship unless you let it overcome something you thought it had but didn't.

Talk it over with him. Stick it out, You'll be surprised!!

[Instaurare]

Originally posted by speaceman
What I'm most curious about Instaurare is why it seems that you are so personally threatened by what two members of the same sex may be doing within their bedroom?

I understand your religious convictions guide you to try to help all sinners to the correct path, but what is adding your intense focus towards homosexuals as a specific group of sinners that needs extra attention?

Maybe I've taken more out of your posts than you are actually putting in, but it really does seem to me as you have singled out homosexuals as a larger problem than other sinners, in your own religious convictions.

Am I wrong about this?

Yes, you are wrong about that. Both with the gay lifestyle and abortion, it is not the sin in itself, but rather the legalization and legitimization of it.

[Instaurare]

Originally posted by mrblaine
By espousing your beliefs as more appropriate than ours or mine specifically, you are in fact disparaging it to no end. You do not have the market cornered on religion or morality nor is your advice more or less appropriate than any of the rest. I think that is what is the most irritating, your "holier than thou" attitude.

Is it possible to tone that down to a more acceptable or at least less irritable level?

When it comes to wrenching on Jeeps, do you consider your personal opinion to be no more appropriate than the opinion of another member who has just purchased his very first jeep?

[Instaurare]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ghall
[B]OK damn it, this is a subject I have watched in complete disbelief.

Scott:
He was and I hope still is your friend. I only hope you have enough huevos to deal with it all.
Ps - - Your friend put the cards on the table when you asked.

Instaurare:
First a little history. I grew up in a horribly religious family. A long long time ago an Anglican minister (not all that different than RC but at least the Anglican religion does use the prevalent language) assured me that if I chose to go MY WAY "probing and digging for avalanche victims, performing first aid to those that needed it and leading the Easter Service at the upper terminal" as opposed to putting money on a collection plate I would surly go to hell. Well it's been about 45 years since then and trust me the only heat I have ever felt is in competition.

Problem #1- You appeared to be down on abortion. Is your religion going to answer the problem of how to pay for the upbringing of the 4,000 children per day you braught up?

#2 - The gay thing, are you saying that unless others conform to YOUR BELIEFS they are socially unacceptable?

Rick: Don't let up.

Final Note - When it's over you have only one person to answer to. And that would be yourself. I don't need a priest, a rabbi, or a Bible thumping Baptist to hold my hand. What really does matter is am I comfortable with it all myself.
Garry





Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 31
Jeep: 99TJ



You asked how to pay for the 4000 children killed daily. First of all, how do we provide for those thousands of children born daily whose mothers either do not want them or are not able to care for them? Do we kill them, or do we make provisions for adoption? Remember that partial birth abortion can be performed on a healthy, viable infant anytime up until natural birth, and it involves the child being 80% born and then the brains are sucked out. What is the difference in your mind between a child 80% born, and another 100% born? Is one more human, more deserving of life than the other?

Second, liberalize and streamline adoption procedures, reduce the bureaucracy, such that those who wish to adopt will find it that much easier to do so. Also, ensure that once the natural mother has voluntarily signed off on her infant, the adoptive parents can rest assured that the mother will not be interfering in the childs life in the future. Seal the books on the adoption.

Additionally, the state of Texas has leglislation in place that guarantees that any child born will be provided for. This could be model leglislation for other states as well. If illegal aliens are granted admission to unemployment and welfare rolls, certainly some state assistance could be extended to U.S. citizens who happen to be newborn infants.

Finally, as far as far as saying that "anyone who does not conform to my beliefs is socially unacceptable, " it seems to me from the responses generated here that anyone who does not conform to the pro-gay agenda is not only socially unacceptable but vilified and disparaged as well. Not much room for inclusiveness and diversity of thought in this community, or so it seems. And it is unfortunate that the sympathy you extend to gays you are unable to extend to the basic right to life of the unborn child, who you appear to consign to the dumpster.

[Instaurare]

--

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Instaurare
When it comes to wrenching on Jeeps, do you consider your personal opinion to be no more appropriate than the opinion of another member who has just purchased his very first jeep?

You are assuming that I am a newbie to life?? No comparison. You are assuming that I have never had trials and tribulations and had to deal with them. You are great at assuming a lot of falsehoods about me. Just because I don't agree with your stance on society does not invalidate my beliefs or life experiences. Try again.

[Instaurare]

Originally posted by mrblaine
You are assuming that I am a newbie to life?? No comparison. You are assuming that I have never had trials and tribulations and had to deal with them. You are great at assuming a lot of falsehoods about me. Just because I don't agree with your stance on society does not invalidate my beliefs or life experiences. Try again.

Do you have the same theological expertise and world view as Scott's pastor, or do you have life experiences similar to members of Courage? If so, then perhaps your opinion on this issue will be of equal value to Scott. If not, then it may be of lesser value. But now that he has heard from all of us, it is time for him to arrive at his own decision.

[BlueJeeper]

Originally posted by Instaurare
It is unfortunate that thru lack of anything of substance to contribute, you are reduced to juvenile attempts at slander and character assassination. Your anti-Christian hatred and bigotry could not be any more transparent.

Hate Monger,

I love it when mugs like you try to spin attacks on their own bigotry as anti-Christian. It is merely another thinly-veiled attempt to cover your bigotry with your quasi-logic and misdirection.

Is has been apparent from the start that you are an individual completely unable to separate religious systems from belief systems. Or perhaps, you are, but ignoring that disconnect is the only way for you to validate your bigotry?? How clever, snake.

Frankly, I couldn't be more of a believing man. Thankfully, as a raised Catholic, I've had the opportunity to have religion betray my family, friends, community, and beliefs many times (note the order in which I prioritize). You have no idea, how for you to label me as an anti-Christian bigot is reprehensible beyond words. It smacks of your dreadful comprehension skills and self-interest.

Lastly, you mention substance. I fail to find any but before the point of your entry into this discussion. Anything after is simply your attempt to confuse and misdirect by abusing folks' religious convictions.

Have a great Sunday--it would be a good day for you to think hard about who here has truly taken their God's name in vain.

[Instaurare]

You have confirmed with great eloquence the point that I had previously made. I am sorry that your bitterness seems to have no bounds.

[NAILER341]

scott? where are you in all of this? it seems these guys are turning your thread into a garbage can

[TJRON]

Originally posted by Instaurare
Do you have the same theological expertise and world view as Scott's pastor, or do you have life experiences similar to members of Courage? If so, then perhaps your opinion on this issue will be of equal value to Scott. If not, then it may be of lesser value. But now that he has heard from all of us, it is time for him to arrive at his own decision.

You amaze me. I think you should let Scott be the judge of the value of the opinions offered here. I really don't think he was concerned with abortion or pedophilia in his initial inquiry.
I don't know Scott except from a few years on the internet, but I feel he is secure enough with his Christianity that he can take or leave what has been offered here.
You, on the other hand feel it's your duty to cram your beliefs down the throats of people, you should know by now, don't and will not share your convictions.

I hate to take this farther off the subject but you probably (or should) know, just how many of those nine month brain sucking abortions are performed a day on normal babys that would have a normal birth and life?

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Instaurare
Do you have the same theological expertise and world view as Scott's pastor, or do you have life experiences similar to members of Courage? If so, then perhaps your opinion on this issue will be of equal value to Scott. If not, then it may be of lesser value. But now that he has heard from all of us, it is time for him to arrive at his own decision.

That is the point isn't it? You don't know what my theological experiences are nor do you truly know what my world view is. For all you know I could be an ordained minister. Just because my opinion on sound advice does not match yours does not mean my world experiences are diminished in the slightest. Nor are they any less valid and frankly I tire of you attempting to invalidate them.

[speaceman]

Originally posted by Instaurare
Yes, you are wrong about that. Both with the gay lifestyle and abortion, it is not the sin in itself, but rather the legalization and legitimization of it.

Okay, I see where you are coming from now.

I have a couple of other questions then.

Is gambling a sin?
Is drinking a sin?
Is a woman wearing a skimpy bikini on the beach a sin?
Is me admiring the woman wearing the bikini a sin?
Is pornography a sin?

All of the above are legal, are they on your list of things to regulate or curtail altogether?

I guess my point is that I am wondering why it seems that homosexuality is the linch pin in the defense against your idea that society is degrading.

Doesn't it bother you at all that you are willing to give power to the government to regulate and invade the lives of one group of people who for all purposes are really only harming themselves (if you view what they are doing as a sin?

[Scott]

Originally posted by fatbob309
you got mail.

You've got a PM as well Bob... Thanks
Scott

[Scott]

Originally posted by mrblaine
Therein lies the issue Scott, you believe he has a choice in the matter. Why don't you just ask him if he does?

Blaine, but there is a choice. He's got a choice. In the eyes of God, being tempted is not a sin, but giving into the temptation is. He can have homosexual thoughts, and tendencies, but its the giving into (aka a sexual relationship) of the tendencies in which he has the choice. Sure its not an easy one, because his choices would be either to live a life with a partner, and choose to sin, or live a life without a partner, and not engage in that sin.
Scott

[Scott]

Instaurare,
First off, In a way I agree with these guys, it seems as though you are trying to start a totally different argument from what I am attemtping to discuss. At any rate, Thank you to everyone who helped me with ideas and such, and I have taken every one of them to heart, with the exception of the trolls that abound in this thread, (I can only think of one right now). At any rate, thank you all, continue to discuss, and play with this thread, and I will add when I see fit, but Ive somewhat enjoyed the discussion. I have since talked to my friend, and we are both doing well with this whole thing.
Thank you all,
Scott

[cbassett]

Originally posted by Scott
Blaine, but there is a choice. He's got a choice. In the eyes of God, being tempted is not a sin, but giving into the temptation is. He can have homosexual thoughts, and tendencies, but its the giving into (aka a sexual relationship) of the tendencies in which he has the choice. Sure its not an easy one, because his choices would be either to live a life with a partner, and choose to sin, or live a life without a partner, and not engage in that sin.
Scott

You didn't say he was having sex with men, you only said he told you he's homosexual.
--Yes, common logic would lead one to believe that with the former comes the latter. However, don't be so quick to dismiss your BF's life[style] as that as a thought or tendency that should just be kept inside.

Further to my point, I personally know a few gay (one couple has been together nearly 3 decades) couples who've never engaged in sexual relations. If this is hard for you to belief, then you ought to take a deep look at yourself.

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by Instaurare
The trouble is, once moral absolutes are gone, there is really not much remaining to block the entrance of anything. Perhaps if, as you seem to think, I suffer from "homophobia," then I guess one could say that you are afflicted by Christophobia, a deep and abiding fear of Christian moral standards.

Heh, think you know all of do you? I am what is commonly referred to as born again. I was baptised 2 years ago in a very public gathering by the pacific in Corona Del Mar and proud of it. I am glad I found Jesus and He has made me a better person. I see His work every day in the healing He conferred upon my daughter.

Being saved however, in no way bestows upon me the ability to stand in judgement of others. If you claim the ability to do so, then you must in fact be without sin. I would think if that were actually the case, that the Revelation would then upon us.

[cbassett]

Here's an honest question for the religious readers:

When you refer to He/Him, why do you capitolize the 'H'?

[mrblaine]

Here's a question that some may try to answer for me.

Being a fairly observant individual and somewhat of a sponge for useless information, my question concerns the divination of sin.

I have either correctly or incorrectly formed the opinion based on many conversations with various folk that no one is without sin. Only one christian ever walked the face of the earth that was without sin and the rest of the human race is incapable of the same feat.

By extrapolation that means to me that everyone is a sinner. Once again, are there degrees of sin?

If no one is capable of being sinless and therefore dependant upon another mechanism to cross the thresholds of your particular version of heaven, how can you toss Scott's buddy straight to hell if he is no less of a sinner than the rest of us?

Scott, are you saying you are without sin?

[utahjeepr]

I have another question.

Let's say Instaurare gets his dream and strict adherence to staunchest of religious rules is required by law, all deviations being punished most harshly (ala that Leviticus guy).

If one were to live his life completely free from "sin", but did so not out of faith but fear of the law/punishment, does he still go to heaven?

Seems to me that those who have strong faith shouldn't care if they live in Sodom. In fact wouldn't a faithful man in Sodom be a "better" Christian than one who lived in the aforementioned theocracy.

Faith without temptation is hollow.

Temptation without faith..? Sounds like most of my life .

[cbassett]

Originally posted by mrblaine
Here's a question that some may try to answer for me.

FOUL!!!! Someone answer my question first!!!

Originally posted by mrblaine By extrapolation that means to me that everyone is a sinner. Once again, are there degrees of sin?[/B]

Is that anything like the degrees to Kevin Bacon?

[cbassett]

Originally posted by utahjeepr
Seems to me that those who have strong faith shouldn't care if they live in Sodom.

I've never been to Sodom, how's the weather?

[William]

Originally posted by cbassett
I've never been to Sodom, how's the weather?

Better yet, how's the wheeling?


Well, now that several people have gotten in on this, with religion and politics and the like combined.....

I'll say this to Scott:

The only side of this that no one has mentioned that I see: this guy was your friend for a long time, and neglected to mention the wee fact that he's gay.
Hello!

So, you have to wonder, how well did you really know him to begin with? But beyond that does it matter? Other than that, decide if you can deal with him being different.

Pretty simple, really, can you deal?

As for the others here who took this to a whole new level: thanks for making an attempt to turn this board into another JU.

[Paradiddle]

Originally posted by mrblaine
Only one christian ever walked the face of the earth that was without sin and the rest of the human race is incapable of the same feat.

Actually - NO christian's have ever walked the earth without sin - Jesus was a Jew.

Jeff

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Paradiddle
Actually - NO christian's have ever walked the earth without sin - Jesus was a Jew.

Jeff

I must have been confused by his commonly referred to last name of Christ on which I had assumed Christianity was derived from.

[Paradiddle]

Originally posted by mrblaine
I must have been confused by his commonly referred to last name of Christ on which I had assumed Christianity was derived from.

You are right, that is why they call it Christianity - after Christ - but back then they were mostly Jews (except for all the other religions that had existed at the time).

Jeff

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by cbassett
Here's an honest question for the religious readers:

When you refer to He/Him, why do you capitolize the 'H'?

For the same reason when we use the word God and spell it with a capitol G.