Manual trannys are useless......

[TJRON]

I'm tired of the constant repeating of this crap so I thought I'd throw in my true thoughts on autos.
Driving with one foot on the gas and using the brake as the throttle is a waste of gas, hard on the brakes and just not natural. It's also not as much fun. It's just plain too easy and doesn't test driving skills as much as a stick does. Is making things easy really what it's all about?
The only time I have a desire for an auto is when faced with a dangerous steep obstacle, and those are fairly rare.

Sure, I know, the ARCA guys run autos but they're competing. If you want to test your skills to the max, get a stick and have some real fun!

[slander]

yup.

[TObject]

Manual and automatic trannies are useless. Go electric motors and gearless drivelines!

[Robert J. Yates]

LOL, I was actually waiting for that Ron Along with the obligatory comment on the 4:1 kit being equal to farm machinery

What we now need for this argument is for somebody to call us sissys for driving slushboxes and then to tell us that real Jeeps only have sticks

[John]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
LOL, I was actually waiting for that Ron Along with the obligatory comment on the 4:1 kit being equal to farm machinery

What we now need for this argument is for somebody to call us sissys for driving slushboxes and then to tell us that real Jeeps only have sticks

[JeepKat]

Dear Mrs. TJRon,

As evident by the level of Ron's crankiness, his stick has not been getting enough use. You haven't by chance switched to the automatic?

[TObject]

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!!! Take that Ron!!!

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by TJRON
I'm tired of the constant repeating of this crap so I thought I'd throw in my true thoughts on autos.
Driving with one foot on the gas and using the brake as the throttle is a waste of gas, hard on the brakes and just not natural. It's also not as much fun. It's just plain too easy and doesn't test driving skills as much as a stick does. Is making things easy really what it's all about?
The only time I have a desire for an auto is when faced with a dangerous steep obstacle, and those are fairly rare.

Sure, I know, the ARCA guys run autos but they're competing. If you want to test your skills to the max, get a stick and have some real fun!

We all have different opinions on this stuff. Ain't that great? Natural, what's natural? If you want to nitpick, natural is the way your jeep came from the factory. How much of that have you modified? Natural is using the two feet god gave you and not wondering why you don't have three. That's natural.

You pick your fun and build your jeep to maximize that to it's fullest and I will do the same. My fun is derived from taking the hard line and doing it with as much smoothness, grace, and ease as is possible. If I wanted to do the bounce, bump, and shake, I would buy me one of them there mechanical bucking bulls and toss it in the backyard. In the meantime, I am just going to enjoy making the hard stuff look easy and not the easy stuff hard.

As far as the reference to the competitors. You don't have to build your rig to their specs. You should recognize that just like other sports, the top guys are doing stuff that can be adapted or should be paid attention to. Everything has to work and work well on a comp rig. How they do things and the technology they develop can and will trickle down to us and improve what we do. It also supplies a venue to comparison test many different ways of doing things. Quarter elliptic used to be the rage and now you rarely see uncontrolled flex used in a rig that has to perform and perform well.

Look at Jack's u-joints. Well tested in competition and enough so, that we have no qualms about them standing up to most of our abuse.

Look at the advent of shaved pumpkins for more clearance.
Perfected in comp rigs and now is almost the standard for those wishing a little edge on the trails.

The steering on the front of your jeep was born out of competition. I was standing there when it happened in JV.

I'm not going to convince you to run an auto and don't intend to. As a matter of fact, I have told you that you are the least likely candidate for an auto of anyone I know. You just enjoy rowing through the gears too much. You are also more mid level oriented than I am and for that the manual suits you and your needs perfectly. I would guess that makes me pretty open minded about who should own what. Can you say the same?

It's about what my needs, desires, and trails I like to run are. Not what you think I should consider natural or unnatural.

The question was posed, I answered it based on my perspective having to do with many conversations about where he wants to go play. Given that scenario, you couldn't give me a manual trans, nor can I in fairness to him, saddle him with that handicap.

The bottom line is both rigs can be made as capable as the other. That has been proven time and time again. One is just easier and cheaper to do.

[Robert J. Yates]

[Paradiddle]

Originally posted by mrblaine
. You are also more mid level oriented than I am and for that the manual suits you and your needs perfectly.

[Art Welch]

Originally posted by mrblaine
The bottom line is both rigs can be made as capable as the other. That has been proven time and time again. One is just easier and cheaper to do.

That is by far the most concise and precise summary I've ever seen in any discussion of this issue.

If everyone would just keep this in mind when this comes up again perhaps we can avoid the ridiculous statements that often permeate these discussions (e.g. "manual transmissions are worthless", "automatics are for wimps").

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by Art Welch
If everyone would just keep this in mind when this comes up again perhaps we can avoid the ridiculous statements that often permeate these discussions (e.g. "manual transmissions are worthless", "automatics are for wimps").

The what fun would this topic be Seriously, this has to be one of the most consistent and recuring arguments seen on the boards. I have gone from getting offended to having just to much fun with it.

[Art Welch]

I wouldn't mind debating it if people stuck to just the facts, I've learned a fair amount in following these threads all of the times they've come up here and on other boards. The thing that gets me is when inevitably about half of the people in a thread do nothing but argue that all vehicles should be set up just like theirs because their way is the only right way. It's just too "harry-esque" for me. On the bright side the threads here are usually constructive.

[Robert J. Yates]

I think where Rons' post comes from is in regard to the advice that several of us were giving ChrisL about swapping for that TJ. In that situation, the point is that with the manual, he will need to spend more money to get it right and that on top of the fact that he would be taking a pretty big loss on his ZJ is the real issue - not which tranny is better.

Its still fun though. Used to be the manual guys could slap the auto guys around pretty good on these threads but now its the manual guys that are feeling a touch of the heat

[Paradiddle]

I agree with Robert - this is my favorite web argument.

I think this argument is more fun on our board because the four letter words don't come out and there are many close friends on this board that like to mess with each other.

Jeff

[TJRON]

Natural, what's natural? Natural is using the two feet god gave you and not wondering why you don't have three. That's natural.

Natural is using the gas to go and the brake to stop. Of course natural in the rocks with an auto is to use both at the same time and modify the brake system to keep from tearing things up.

My fun is derived from taking the hard line and doing it with as much smoothness, grace, and ease as is possible. In the meantime, I am just going to enjoy making the hard stuff look easy and not the easy stuff hard.

That's cool! My fun is derived from being able to do a bit of everything and taking the line that suits me at the time. Of course, if I were to do the Hammer Trails over and over I would require a different approach on some of my equipment but I think the manual would probably stay, as I also like to cruise on the highway at 70+ mph without racing my engine.
BTW, I do most of the harder obstacles at Moab with more grace and finesse than most auto guys. Why? Because I've done them all half a dozen times.

You are also more mid level oriented than I am and for that the manual suits you and your needs perfectly. I would guess that makes me pretty open minded about who should own what. Can you say the same?

Open minded? Actually I don't care who owns what. I'm just tired of people acting like any one doing hard trails with a manual is an idiot.

The bottom line is both rigs can be made as capable as the other. That has been proven time and time again. One is just easier and cheaper to do.

Yep, we do agree after all!

Kat, you may be right about my stick shift. Maybe it needs some lube!!

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by TJRON
Kat, you may be right about my stick shift. Maybe it needs some lube!!

That was way way waaaaaaaaaaaaaay to much information!

[Mark Hinkley]

Now, evryone get back to work, lunch is over!

This is an issue like asking someone else what color should I paint my Jeep. It has alot to do what that person is use to. Sometimes it can be traced back to what their first car/truck had in it. There are somany other things that will make a Jeep go through an obstical gracefully or not than the tranny its not even funny. It is obsured to say "that Jeep made that because he had ________ tranny in it". I don't care how hard the obstical. Drive what you like and have FUN! Just like we all don't drive black model "t"s anymore. It would be pretty boring.

I like manuals for wheeling others like autos. I can give my opinion but it dosen't mean it is right for everyone (although it should ). This can be debated for all time with the same conclusion: drive what you like. Anyhow atleast I can stop my XJ, my MJ is another story it has an auto in it. YEEHAA!

Now I have to go back to work!

mark
orgs mfg

[Jerry Bransford]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
Used to be the manual guys could slap the auto guys around pretty good on these threads but now its the manual guys that are feeling a touch of the heat

And it's about time too.

[sethmark]

I've been a manual guy with every 4wd I've ever owned, and there's been a few. I've driven both auto and manual in all sorts of terrain and the auto is easier.

So what? I can still go all the same places. I will probably do the NV4500 when its time, just to complete my SWB conversion to 1 ton Dodge.

[underDAWG]

Originally posted by TJRON
I'm tired of the constant repeating of this crap so I thought I'd throw in my true thoughts on autos.
Driving with one foot on the gas and using the brake as the throttle is a waste of gas, hard on the brakes and just not natural. It's also not as much fun. It's just plain too easy and doesn't test driving skills as much as a stick does. Is making things easy really what it's all about?
The only time I have a desire for an auto is when faced with a dangerous steep obstacle, and those are fairly rare.

Sure, I know, the ARCA guys run autos but they're competing. If you want to test your skills to the max, get a stick and have some real fun!

Ron.....Deep down, you love AUTO, you just don't want to admit it. But now you can't afford the swap like the other person . You should have asked for a bigger pension when you retired.

Later,

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by TJRON


Natural is using the gas to go and the brake to stop. Of course natural in the rocks with an auto is to use both at the same time and modify the brake system to keep from tearing things up.

You are twisting some information to suit your arguement. I happen to enjoy tinkering with brakes in the same way you enjoy things that you do. You misconstrue my passion for improvement to mean that it can not be done comfortably or easily. I am just trying to improve the brakes on auto equipped rigs to have the same level of performance the auto does.

Anyone can drive an auto on the rocks with one foot, unfortunately they then wind up looking like some one swapped in a manual tranny. My damage to my brakes is my own doing. You can do the same with a manual tranny if you drive off with the e-brake on in 4-lo. That doesn't make it natural in the rocks to drive with both feet.

If you were really open minded about this, you would offer to hop in one of our rigs and see just exactly how it is. It's really nothing to get miffed over.


That's cool! My fun is derived from being able to do a bit of everything and taking the line that suits me at the time. Of course, if I were to do the Hammer Trails over and over I would require a different approach on some of my equipment but I think the manual would probably stay, as I also like to cruise on the highway at 70+ mph without racing my engine.
BTW, I do most of the harder obstacles at Moab with more grace and finesse than most auto guys. Why? Because I've done them all half a dozen times.

Ever driven an XJ? Do you know just exactly what the cruise RPM is on the highway at 70 on 35's? The ease of swapping in AW4's nowadays really kills that bit of logic.

Your grace and finesse may be evident in someone else's backyard, but not everyone's backyard is in Moab, is it?



Open minded? Actually I don't care who owns what. I'm just tired of people acting like any one doing hard trails with a manual is an idiot.

Your posts don't bear you out on this one. I don't think you are an idiot if you wheel hard trails with a stock manual. I think you are an idiot if you attempt certain arguments in the comparison.

We both know that the bottom line in this arguement is that if you spend the time practicing, the energy modifying, and the money acquiring enough parts, accessories, gear reductions, and electronic widgets, you will eventually wind up with a manual driver that can duplicate nearly all the natural virtues of the auto that we hold dear.



Yep, we do agree after all!

Kat, you may be right about my stick shift. Maybe it needs some lube!!

or use!!

[TJRON]

My opinion stands, take it or leave it.

Originally posted by TJRON
I'm tired of the constant repeating of this crap so I thought I'd throw in my true thoughts on autos.
Driving with one foot on the gas and using the brake as the throttle is a waste of gas, hard on the brakes and just not natural. It's also not as much fun. It's just plain too easy and doesn't test driving skills as much as a stick does. Is making things easy really what it's all about?
The only time I have a desire for an auto is when faced with a dangerous steep obstacle, and those are fairly rare.

Sure, I know, the ARCA guys run autos but they're competing. If you want to test your skills to the max, get a stick and have some real fun!

I've driven autos and my left leg gets confused without that third petal.

Jes

[Jim M]

Wow! I can?t believe I missed all of this. Let's see...auto versus manual... oh yeah here they are. Here are my thoughts on this:

I drive a manual. Why? When I bought it I had a strict budget and I kept to it to the dollar. I still like it. It's been great on the street where I love shifting gears, and added an extra dimension on the trails that I've enjoyed. The thing that I like the most about a manual is that I can lose all of the fluid, and five gears, and still make it out of the woods. For me, that was important. I used to wheel alone in remote places and had to have reliable equipment.

I've been wheeling for a little over 14 years. In that time I've seen more autos overheat, lose fluid through a crack, starve for fluid on steep hills, and otherwise take themselves out of the game, that I consider them less than trustworthy. I know, a bunch of you have had great success with the auto's and that?s great. I'm basing my comments not on a poll or scientific study, but on my experiences.

So what side of the fence does that leave me on? I'd like to get my hands on a TF 904(9) and bolt it up behind my 4 banger and try it out. I'm willing to give it a run and see if I can change my paradigm. Who knows, maybe I'll be converted yet. Now I wheel in highly popular area in a park that keeps track of my comings and goings. I also recently acquired a tow rig and will begin trailering the TJ in the spring. What does this mean? I'd rather have an auto now. The TJ is strictly a toy these days, and I can stop worrying about street driving and reliability as much.

Anyone know of a source for a stock TJ 4 banger tranny?b

[LeadFoot]

I'd take a slush box in good working condition over a broken 5spd, or visa versa. I'd just enjoy a tranny that worked.

[Daddy Longlegs]

The AW4 4 speed auto in my 99 TJ loves to run 75+ MPH on the freeway and only turns around 2550 RPMS at 75 MPH.



Scott K

[ChrisO]

I prefer an Auto-trans, with a fully manual valve body. Best of both worlds!

[Beast40]

I am going to an auto, like Blaine said they go through the hard stuff very smoothly. I've only driven one offroad once and it was different to say the least, I did not do any real steep declines but the up hill ones felt graceful. I am a little concerned about the lack on compression braking. Jon, my friend, has to stand on his brake for steep downhill sections. (he does have the stock braking system though)

[Daddy Longlegs]

Beast,

With rear disks the braking is improved though you do stand on them a bit more than with the manual. I still need to do like Fred and swap in the ZJ prop valve and master cylinder but even without them it feels good on the trail. Bigger front brakes are also in the future for me.

Scott K