Time to police our own

[Darrell C]

Originally posted by TObject
...getting involved on multiple levels of government is acceptable to me.

This is an important point that should not be overlooked.

People who violate rules exist today, existed in the past, and will continue to exist in the future. I have no problem making a comment to folks who step outside the bounds, but I don't feel it's my responsibility to enforce those rules.

What I can, and do, is work closely with the Forest Service reps in our area to let them know that some off road enthusiasts do have respect for the various laws and rules that exist.

I'm on a first name basis our District Ranger. I've traded e-mails with him, we've spoke on the phone, and we've worked side-by-side on trail repair days by moving rocks, felling dead trees to help confine traffic to the trail by cutting off switchbacks, repairing trail erosion, etc. I've even submitted grants for trail and trailhead improvements to our local Regional Advisory Council (RAC).

Although stereotyping will occur by the uneducated, attempts to close trails in this area require involvement of the Forest Service. By being involved with the Forest Service in a positive manner, I hope to help "stem the tide" and let them know some folks do care and wish our trails to remain open.

[Dan-H]

Originally posted by mrblaine
Dan, do you need rules of conduct?

I think I've recognized what is and isn't acceptable here, but OTOH, others might appreciate the rules of this house before they break them and get booted.

[speaceman]

Well, what if the message was, "Here is a picture of a jeep and driver who drove off trail and through wetlands, nobody wheel with him anymore. "

I can understand taking exception to the lynch mob mentality. I don't think it is a good thing. It is not safe, it is not right.

The issue that we as a group absolutely need to discuss is the following:

At what point do we as offroaders, set the threshold for the behavior of people within our activity, that will actually illicit a response and condemnation of what is clearly improper behavior?

The status quo as it stands, will only work against us. We are not organized enough, compared to the enviro groups, and we make an uglier photo op for the media, compared to the enviro groups.

Think about it from the other side's point of view. Let's look at it from a best case scenario view point. Lets say, this situation was taken care of quietly. The people on the trail, reported the offender to law enf. and they later moved in to ticket him or what ever the proper punishment is.

The fact of the matter is, while the action was punished, the only people who know so are the people directly involved. The offender, the whistle blower, and LE.

Everyone else on the trail that day, is still left with the impression that someone drove off trail through a wetland.

Unless LE came down that very day, with lights and sirens blazing, to pull the offender of the trail, there is still the impression that there is nothing being done about these types of violations.

That is the best case scenario. We all know, that most likely, nothing at all is going to be done about this guy driving off road. LE has very little incentive to do anything after the fact, in cases like this.

We are dealing with the perception that others have of us as a group, that we are reckless, motoring yahoos. It does not matter that the majority of us aren't. Our bad apples represent us to everyone else.

What are WE, as a group, going to do to make sure the OTHERS, know that WE are not the same as the YAHOOS?

That is the issue.

[TObject]

Originally posted by Dan-H
I think I've recognized what is and isn't acceptable here, but OTOH, others might appreciate the rules of this house before they break them and get booted.

The original post was not what got Rockjeep the boot. His persistence to publish the license plate number on our board after that fact, what did it.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Dan-H
I think I've recognized what is and isn't acceptable here, but OTOH, others might appreciate the rules of this house before they break them and get booted.

It is rare and usually an attempt at humor that someone gets banned without warning.

I've personally sent folks a note expressing interest in their intentions and explaining a few things only to have them instantly test me.

I figure it's like most things, if you walk into Victoria's Secret and ask for a nail apron and a tube of caulking, you probably wouldn't understand the rules if they were posted anyway.

Same holds true if you're at the Home Depot looking to buy lingerie.

Posting rules will also give most a reason to bitch and a set of guidelines to try and circumvent. It's better to keep everyone guessing and warn them when they cross the line.

I'll also bet anyone that has ever been banned will understand perfectly why and know that 99.9 percent of the time, it was well deserved.

That help you at all?

[JLemieux]

This post could just as easliy be about the sex offender web site. On one hand it informs you of a potential problem for you and your family. Most people would like to know this information so they can make informed decisions. On the other it gives the lawless mob fuel and information to carry out their vigalanty justice.
Most of the population (including myself) would not be disappointed seeing a child molester put to death in unspeakable ways. When a 18 year old male has relations with a 17 year old female he too is sex offender but we seem to understand this offense.
The problem lies with some people in the communtity that cannot go through the proper channels to resolve their problems. I am not convinced that everyone in the offroad community has that self control.
I would like to have seen the Jeep and made my own reasonable decision on what to do if I were to cross paths with this man. Some people are not reasonable and I agree with the decision not to post the picture and plate in this forum. You never know who is watching us and I for one would not like to read that physical harm came to this guy by the hands of a mob that read about this here.

[Sephiroth]

Originally posted by mrblaine
I'll also bet anyone that has ever been banned will understand perfectly why and know that 99.9 percent of the time, it was well deserved.

That help you at all?

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by JLemieux
This post could just as easliy be about the sex offender web site. On one hand it informs you of a potential problem for you and your family. Most people would like to know this information so they can make informed decisions. On the other it gives the lawless mob fuel and information to carry out their vigalanty justice.
Most of the population (including myself) would not be disappointed seeing a child molester put to death in unspeakable ways. When a 18 year old male has relations with a 17 year old female he too is sex offender but we seem to understand this offense.
The problem lies with some people in the communtity that cannot go through the proper channels to resolve their problems. I am not convinced that everyone in the offroad community has that self control.
I would like to have seen the Jeep and made my own reasonable decision on what to do if I were to cross paths with this man. Some people are not reasonable and I agree with the decision not to post the picture and plate in this forum. You never know who is watching us and I for one would not like to read that physical harm came to this guy by the hands of a mob that read about this here.

It's interesting you bring that up John, it's even worse than you posted.

A 17 and 16 year can legally bonk until the cows come home and the instant he turns 18, he transitions into an instant sex offender. It gets worse, he faces lifetime registration and if he has any contact with his "victim" he will go back to jail.

Contact can be a phone call, e-mail, letter, chance meeting at the mall, "any" contact. The so-called victim does not even have to complain, it just has to come to the attention of the court.

The second contact violation will result in more jail time and the third time is usually good for a minimum of 10 years.

It's also a little known fact that if you are in a park, you walk over to a secluded area to urinate behind a tree and some female happens to be watching you with binoculars from her hillside home and complains, you can be faced with lifetime registration and a sexual offense on your record.

I did a little research on the laws after my brother was convicted of an offense several years ago. He's still in prison.

[Wooders]

No doubt there are lots of dodgy laws out there.....But just on the inital topic.....
Like others have said - I'm torn & have no solution to offer....But the effect for US has been 8 of my 10 favourate trails near Sydney are now either closed or graded dirt tracks now instead of rock ledges.......Of the few remaining areas, some we are waiting to be locked/graded to nothing or in other situations the 4x4 clubs association has established a work for access scheme.....

And yet regularly we get knobs in 4x4's that think the objects used to close the trail are just obsticles to gain access.....hence why now more trails are graded ruining the trail....Even though in the background the assocuiation might be working on getting an area reopened.....

Seriously we DO need a solution and that includes a way of dealing with those that choose not to adhere to the common Tread Lightly principles.
I dislike the idea of vigilanties putting up license plates on the internet - because it's open to abuse/misuse. Also we need to look to educate not punish those that don't realise they are doing wrong - hence I like the 2-3 strikes system....

But the real question remains how to best deal with this situation and yes trust me it WILL get much worse for EVERYONE before it gets better.....

[TObject]

Rockjeep and I came to an agreement. He is no longer banned.

Welcome back Kory.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by TObject
Rockjeep and I came to an agreement. He is no longer banned.

Welcome back Kory.

What, he's gonna behave and you're still going to be a big meanie?

[Joe Dillard]

Sounds like cool heads have prevailed!

[DsrtJeeper]

Originally posted by TObject
Rockjeep and I came to an agreement. He is no longer banned.

Welcome back Kory.

Cool! I hate tension. I'm still wondering if Robert feels better after his rant?

I'm glad we can all agree to disagree on this board. It's alot more productive that way.

[Art Welch]

Originally posted by DsrtJeeper
I'm glad we can all agree to disagree on this board. It's alot more productive that way.

I disagree

[DsrtJeeper]

Originally posted by Art Welch
I disagree

Promptly noted!

[Paradiddle]

Originally posted by Art Welch
I disagree

Splitter! (name that movie - I'm counting on you Shalom)

[DsrtJeeper]

The one with Tom Cruise and Jack Nicholson?

[speaceman]

Originally posted by Paradiddle
Splitter! (name that movie - I'm counting on you Shalom)

Not ringing any bells. Sorry man. I've failed you on this one.

[Paradiddle]

Originally posted by speaceman
Not ringing any bells. Sorry man. I've failed you on this one.

Shalom - you cut me deep .

Life of Brian


Jeff

[speaceman]

DOH! I should have known.

I haven't seen that movie in awhile. I think i'm going to have to rewatch it one of these days.

[Robert J. Yates]

Originally posted by DsrtJeeper
I'm still wondering if Robert feels better after his rant?

No he doesn't. In light of the "lets all talk about it but not really do anything" nature of the 4 wheeling world, he's been doing some reading to try and further educate himself on the issue.

He didn't like what he found so he decided to basically stop arguing with other 4 wheelers on the net and go on hiatus.

I do not have the time or energy to give a f*ck about it anymore. The 4 wheelers can't/won't deal with their own affairs and the environmental mass marketeers are being funded by our own government through direct cash money grants. I'm done - its to much.

So, I'm picking places I haven't been to yet and will pray that they are still open when my time frees up so I can actually experience them.

[Rockjeep]

Hi all. Its me back from the banned. It was weird there. Saw some people from the past. Ok I now have no position on this matter. I will now only jeep and keep any comments to my self. I have also taken the camera out of the jeep. I was also able to loose 5lbs from the jeep doing so. Ok see everyone on the trail.
Kory

[Paradiddle]

Originally posted by Rockjeep
Hi all. Its me back from the banned. It was weird there. Saw some people from the past. Ok I now have no position on this matter. I will now only jeep and keep any comments to my self. I have also taken the camera out of the jeep. I was also able to loose 5lbs from the jeep doing so. Ok see everyone on the trail.
Kory

Kory - I don't think the intent is to ever prevent people from having their own position on anything here - I would encourage you to continue to voice your opinions. That is what makes this place fun - we are free to disagree and debate within the guidlines of common sense and respect.

Jeff

[DsrtJeeper]

Originally posted by Robert J. Yates
No he doesn't. In light of the "lets all talk about it but not really do anything" nature of the 4 wheeling world, he's been doing some reading to try and further educate himself on the issue.

He didn't like what he found so he decided to basically stop arguing with other 4 wheelers on the net and go on hiatus.

I do not have the time or energy to give a f*ck about it anymore. The 4 wheelers can't/won't deal with their own affairs and the environmental mass marketeers are being funded by our own government through direct cash money grants. I'm done - its to much.

So, I'm picking places I haven't been to yet and will pray that they are still open when my time frees up so I can actually experience them.

Robert;
I understand how frustrating arguing is over the computer. I sure hope you're not stereotyping the 4x4 world just as the enviros do. I'm a donating member of several organizations, been a participant in many cleanups including Glamis for years and i've attended and spoke out at many meetings. I carry such supplies as "peatsorb" and "pig pads" along with large garbage bags for trail cleanup. I'll admit my knowledge is still in it's infantcy, but i'm trying.

I once caught a group of guys dumping illegally on a desert trail. They weren't off roaders, but a few guys who had just cleaned up their yard. I first mentioned something to the offenders, then I road my quad back to the truck and grabbed my camera, shot a picture of the offenders and vehicle and headed home. My neighbor was a helicopter pilot for the Phx. PD as well as an officer. I showed him the pics and told him exactly where offense ocurred along with the adress of the offenders. (I followed them home.) My neighbor called authorities and they stated they could not press charges unless the land owner insisted. The land owner was the BLM. BLM was contacted and they declined to press charges.

Ohh; it gets better as I just remembered. Right across the road from this riding area sits a Glendale PD shooting range. There had to be 40-50 officers there that day on duty. I rode my quad over there also and not one officer would help me and I was told to get my ATV off of private property. (Which it was not.)

I'm sure my incident is not isolated. I was so ****ed that day! By the way; that area was closed soon afterwards without public meeting or vote. Someone had gone in and torched the piles of illegally dumped trash and caused a nice fire in the desert.
...and who do you think got blamed for this mess?

So I ask you; is it the governing officials, land owners, LE, etc...fault or is it the 4x4 world? It sure would be interesting to see statistics. I honestly feel bad that you are now angry too; Robert. I'd like to hear your answer to these problems on the trail.

[Robert J. Yates]

I have no answer.

I'm also not angry.

I see the government as being the same as the 4 wheelers who are abusers.

I see 4 wheelers as a totally apathetic group who do not want to open their eyes to the big picture.

What to do. I duuno.......

Not to much we can do about the government unless we operate through our lobbiest groups such as Blue Ribbon and so forth and exert pressure at the highest levels of government. I'm a member, I pay dues and mostly I'm a member and pay dues because thats how lobbiests work.

The abusers OTH, well lets just say that I have had it with folks coddling them. Here is a good example of what I am talking about:

I used to work adopt a trails with some clubs that I knew and also we had one on our own. I no longer wish to spend my time picking up the trash that others leave behind - who made that my job? Picking up their trash also has not stopped them from doing it so if we do it for them, thats simply coddling them IMO and sweeping their actions under the carpet.

I have no problem with idiots being identified either - lets face it, there is no LE where we like to wheel - that one reason why folks like to wheel there - so its up to other wheelers but everybody wants to be all politically correct about it. Bah, nothing like tying our own hands and washing them at the same time.

Then you add in the fact that our government goes out of its way to give grant money to these "environmental crisis mass marketeers" and what have we got, a stupid overwhelming situation that defies rational thought and action.

The land will be closed and peoples rights will be restricted - its coming, no doubt about it and people are all good with crying about it after the fact. Acceptance of having our civil liberties gored is a general trend in our society so there is no fighting it. Bah, nothing like crying over spilt milk.

What to do? I dunno........

I'm done. I'm capable of policing myself and I will make sure that I get to all the places I can before they are closed and I will try to include my daughter as much as possible so she will at least be able to tell her kids someday, that she saw them too.

The rest of it, I no longer care and I really mean it. I'll never sell my Jeep but I'm thinking I'm due for finding something new to be interested in.

[DsrtJeeper]

Robert;
One big problem is the "We can't take Rome in a day" syndrome. People often put things off until it's too late or nearly there. Then; we all want resolution immediately. How can we change people's behaviour after they've behaved like this for years? It surely won't happen overnight or "in a day."

The US has been through the days of lynching and policing our own. That's where the term "outlaw" came from. If we become outlaws in doing whatever it takes; we are no better than the greenies who torch million dollar houses or place bombs on the trail. You know darn well that if offenders are listed publicly; they will be crucified by the vigilantes. Is this acceptable? Yet on the other hand; how much is LE doing about these offenders?

I had some thoughts....
What really became of the California Green Sticker Program? Is it just a way to get funds? Is it helping the environment? State Trust Lands require a use permit. What has this accomplished? How about the closure of Comp Hill at Glamis during night time hours? The higher access fee to Glamis? What if all users of trail systems were required to have a permit? In the event of an offense; the offender loses access to all trails? I would be willing to pay a yearly fee if LE or land management staff were accessible to us when in need. State campsites have more staffing than our trail systems!

The problem.....
How do we organize trail policing publicly; admitting that there is a problem within the 4x4 community? Won't the greenies use this as ammo for their battle? These public meetings asking for help from the various enforcement agencies will surely be attended by the greenies. There will surely be bad press and some type of compromise suggested. In otherwards; we cry out for solution and help and the enviros use it to further their agenda. It happens all the time.

So....how do we get everyone to agree to written policy and all to abide? Why do some people respect rules and use common sense and others don't? How many are willing to admit that they partied when they were younger whether it be in the desert or countryside? Has anyone ever thrown a beer bottle at a party or left behind garbage? Drove vehicles onto private land knowing it was wrong? I'm man enough to admit i've seen all the above when I was young. I grew up where farmers through their garbage over the embankment or into the creek below. Parties were held under the RR bridge. People 4 wheeled on private property because there were no legal trails. I had very strict parents and went to church every Sunday. Why did things change when I turned 18 and moved out? The farmers never told me it was wrong to leave behind garbage. My parents did casually drink infront of me; so why couldn't I party when I turned 18? I grew up seeing garbage laying beside the highways. Why should it seem wrong to me?

I changed....
I slowly became educated as I read and watched the news. Living in a small community; I was unaware of the faults of our citizens. It wasn't until I moved to AZ and saw clean highways and public landfills; that I realized we had been doing it all wrong in my town. Soon after; I became interested in trail riding. I was introduced to clubs and land issues. I saw people picking up their trash and only carrying plastic or canned refreshments. By example and through friendly advice; I learned what was right. I then became interested in land use issues after being invited to a meeting by a friend. There; I was even further educated. I've been learning ever since.

What I did today was sit down and actually analize why I tread lightly, stay on the trail and clean up after myself and others. As you can see; it was all about education. Often times; many of us are from these small towns that I described. It makes you wonder how many of the offenders have never been educated or just moved to our area from a small town atmosphere. I realize and want to say that all small towns are not like mine. Some places; an entire city is at fault. Can you imagine a citizen from Compton or the projects of the Bronx, getting a 4x4 and hitting our trails? What rules of offroading do you think they learned growing up? Should they be crucified for their actions and publicly humiliated? Or should they be given the chance to be educated?

[Rockjeep]

How about the closure of Comp Hill at Glamis during night time hours?

This was not closed due to environmentalist, it was necause of the mad max like conditions. The ravers came in with the partys and drugs. It was also becoming dangerous there. I agree with the closure, but miss the night runs there.
I am now in the same boat as Robert. After reading the replys to some post I have decieded to only worrie about me and my family. I will no longer vulinteer with the forestry and other programs. Its a waste of time. You have kicked me in the balls to many times and asked my to smile during it. I will move on. I might take up deep sea fishing. Anyone want to buy a jeep.
Kory

[Paradiddle]

Originally posted by Rockjeep
I might take up deep sea fishing. Anyone want to buy a jeep.
Kory

They'll make that illegal soon (unless your Japanese).

[Robert J. Yates]

Thats funny Kory - the deep sea fishing part. I was on my brothers boat last weekend and I kept thinking to myself, "Hmmmm, no idiots out here" and even if there were, I could simply let them drown and they would simply cease to be a problem to boating

Besides, how are they going to close the ocean? I guess anything can be closed but it will take them longer to get it done outside US coastal waters.

[Rockjeep]

We have been doing alot of deepsea fishing latly and I have been enjoying it. I do agree on how easy it would be to get rid of problems out there. Also my tan is really going well out there so there is another beni.