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  #1  
Old 05-11-2004, 02:06 PM
Daless2 Daless2 is offline
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Where is the Islamic Outrage?

Where is the Islamic Outrage?

Today an America civilian was shown on a radical Islamic web site being beheaded in the name of Islam.

My only question, without judgment or justification as to why or why not is simple:

Where is the World Wide Islamic Outrage?

Does anyone hear it? Any One?

If so please point it out to me. I want to listen to it.

Frank
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  #2  
Old 05-11-2004, 02:23 PM
TObject TObject is offline
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Islamic Fundamentalism is clearly the enemy. I only wish the government had political will to declare it as such.
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Old 05-11-2004, 02:36 PM
Daless2 Daless2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TObject
Islamic Fundamentalism is clearly the enemy. I only wish the government had political will to declare it as such.
Hi Sergey,

I agree with you, yet my question goes largely unanswered

Where is the World Wide Islamic Outrage???


Let me give it some perspective.

Does anyone hear the World Wide Islamic (and otherwise) Outrage as to what was done, under American Control, in those prisons in Iraq?

The outrage was and is deafening, swift and most certainly justified.


Now the Outrage is also Deafening "In its Silence!"

But it could just be me. Maybe I am just hard of hearing and that is why I asked.

Where is the World Wide Islamic Outrage???

I really want to hear it.

I don't know maybe we are all hard of hearing these days, but i doubt it.

Anyone hear it???

Frank
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Old 05-11-2004, 02:37 PM
Paradiddle Paradiddle is offline
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I realize this doesn't answer the question, but...

The problem is we can no longer stand on our high horse and declare that type of treatment as "evil" - because we are doing it as well.

We might not be chopping off heads, or at least none that we've heard of yet, but our actions to the prisonors is just as degrading and wrong.

That whole place is a giant mess and we just need to figure out how to get the hell outta there without losing more political face.

Jeff
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Old 05-11-2004, 02:40 PM
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I just watched the video and can't help but wonder the same thing as Frank. For a group that's supposed to be all about peace they sure are selective about it.
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Old 05-11-2004, 02:58 PM
Daless2 Daless2 is offline
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Hi Jeff,

You are right on all points, but the question remains unanswered,

Where is the World Wide Islamic Outrage?

I expect one, don't you?


We can discuss horse colors too, but that really isn't the point. That may be a justification, but not the point.

Let me explain:

Our horse color went from white to black in your example, right?

If I asked, "Where is the American Outrage?"; I would venture a guess that any one of us could point me to some place where I could hear it. Don't you think?

Please understand, I am not asking "Why" isn't there any World Wide Islamic Outrage?

I expect there to be a World Wide Islamic Outrage. No questions asked. Right?
(Or is there some special kind of pass on this one that I'm not aware of?)

I just can't hear it so I am asking for help to be pointed in the right direction!


Hmmmm.... Maybe there really is some kind of special pass on this one. Something like a papal dispensation that we accept applies in this case.

I don't. And Won't.

I expect there to be a World Wide Islamic Outrage Over this. To accept anything less would be sinful.

I know it's there. I just can't hear it.


Frank


PS: Jeff I could not disagree with you more about getting out of that place. I do not see having insurgents attacking my strengths (U.S. Military) as a bad thing. In fact I see it as a rather good thing compared to knocking down building with office workers in them.

If I had to choose, and the bad people who want to kill me would listen I would say "attack my strengths every day!"

PSS: Anyone know where I can hear the World Wide Islamic Outrage over this Killing?
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Old 05-11-2004, 03:09 PM
TObject TObject is offline
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There won't be any because they are happy to see an American head chopped off.
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Old 05-11-2004, 03:16 PM
Paradiddle Paradiddle is offline
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Frank,

I agree with you - where is their outrage? Odd that there isn't one. For that matter, where is France's outrage? They were outraged at use a week ago. I mean is this type of behavior expected because they are fundamentalists?

On the other piece, I for one never thought we should have gone over there in the first place. I've yet to have a conversation with anyone that could convince me otherwise. Saddam was a bad man - there are a lot of bad people in this world doing worse things then he was - we aren't invading their counties? I have yet to see any evidence that he posed any more threat to the US then a half-a-dozen other leaders of other nations.

Anyway - that is neither here nor there, and is my belief.

That video is very disturbing.

Jeff
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Old 05-11-2004, 03:24 PM
BlueJeeper BlueJeeper is offline
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Hi Frank, how are you?

I don't know if I can answer your question to your satisfaction, but what I can tell you is that in my community there is a strong Muslim population that has long since denounced the actions of these violent groups with a great deal of outrage.

The problem for them seems to be this--you know how the public and the press always seem to forget about good deeds and honest, hardworking, good people? Since they don't seem to be interesting enough for the evening shows or the front page of the paper?

You know, these folks are not ranting separatists and they don't say controversial things, or fire off RPG's at soldiers, so they don't see much press coverage. They have families, go to work each day, serve their communities, whether that is here in the United States or in some other country. They don't fit the stereotype, even though their numbers are stronger than those who take advantage of their faith. They also aren't the convenient "victims" in this act for the press and public, like they were for the abuse scandals. Their outrage there seems newsworthy, I suppose. I guess its not so newsworthy when their faith is "terrorized" when Al Queda kills someone in their name. That's probably too grey of a concept for most folks to wrap their head around.

I'm not sure how different my community is from the rest of the world. I don't know if it matters. I do know the Muslim folks I know do as much as they can, and then also raise their children, serve their community, come to the 4th of July parade and stand up and salute our veterans, and so on.

They will also, I imagine, universally express their outrage at this world situation by the time the polls close in November. It may be a vote for incumbents or votes against. I think they, as individual Americans, are fully entitled to express their outrage exactly as they see fit, even if that is to simply cast a ballot, or to come here to live in the United States, or to establish a foundation to help their friends back home, or what have you.

In other words, I think our Muslim friends are more like us than they are different, especially in their feelings about the world situation today. They, like us, I am sure feel the same outrage at the poor leadership coming from every person claiming to represent them. I know I am sure outraged at the people claiming to represent me. Almost beyond my own sanity.
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Old 05-11-2004, 03:25 PM
TObject TObject is offline
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Here is an interesting article:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/greenhut/greenhut5.html
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Old 05-11-2004, 04:24 PM
William William is offline
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Re: Where is the Islamic Outrage?

Quote:
Originally posted by Daless2
Where is the Islamic Outrage?
If so please point it out to me. I want to listen to it.
Frank
I'm outraged that it's all grouped togehter, and the many suffer for the few.

The video, which is pretty harsh, is not the worst out there. What's sad, and I don't understand, is how Saddams torture video's are sold as entertainment on the streets, but the prison torture, is viewed as something that should have people sent to tribunals.

That said, those few bad apples have screwed the US over.



It's a very sad world we live in.
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Old 05-11-2004, 04:45 PM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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So, there's still no connection to terrorism and being in Iraq, eh?
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Old 05-11-2004, 04:49 PM
William William is offline
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Originally posted by mrblaine
So, there's still no connection to terrorism and being in Iraq, eh?
No, we invaded a soviergn, peacefull, law abiding, world community supporting country, just to steal the oil.



Oil prices at a high, car bombings everywhere, kidnap and murder abounds...

Yeah... Sure...
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Old 05-11-2004, 04:50 PM
speaceman speaceman is offline
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You are not hearing any because there isn't any. There isn't going to be any either.

Anyone who expects otherwise just needs to look at Israel's experience in the last 40 years for a baseline as to how the institution of islam generally responds to percieved attacks and injustices on both a local and world level.

Frankly, whether you agree or disagree with Bush's stance in Iraq or with how the U.S. involvement in Iraq has been implemented, the one good thing that I think has come out of the whole sordid mess is that someone has finally stood up to the countries of Islam and called them on their "BS" when it comes to their position in the world and how they cultivate and use terrorism to further their geopolitical goals.
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Old 05-11-2004, 05:01 PM
Paradiddle Paradiddle is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrblaine
So, there's still no connection to terrorism and being in Iraq, eh?
The proof is in the pudding, or lack thereof. I've yet to hear, read, or smell of any proof or even allegation of Iraq sponsoring terrorism as a nation. Maybe it's out there, but I don't see it being held up. In fact, I distinctly remember Bush stating that Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11 and/or Bin Laden very early on in this campaign.

Syria, on the other hand, has a documented and admited track record of state sponsored terrorism against our only true ally in the entire region and we sit on our thumbs when it comes to them.

If we wanted to make an example of someone, then we shoud state that, and not all this other "free Iraq" BS that we peddle to ourselves and the rest of the world. I'm not saying they didn't have it coming or that they don't deserve it, I'm just sick of the candy coating.

Bottom line is this - freedom costs a lot and you gotta want it bad. If the people of Iraq TRUELY wanted freedom they would have overthrown Saddam years ago. And don't sing me any BS that they couldn't - I'm sure the same thing was said about England 300 years ago.

Jeff
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Old 05-11-2004, 05:07 PM
mrblaine mrblaine is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paradiddle
The proof is in the pudding, or lack thereof. I've yet to hear, read, or smell of any proof or even allegation of Iraq sponsoring terrorism as a nation. Maybe it's out there, but I don't see it being held up. In fact, I distinctly remember Bush stating that Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11 and/or Bin Laden very early on in this campaign.

Syria, on the other hand, has a documented and admited track record of state sponsored terrorism against our only true ally in the entire region and we sit on our thumbs when it comes to them.

If we wanted to make an example of someone, then we shoud state that, and not all this other "free Iraq" BS that we peddle to ourselves and the rest of the world. I'm not saying they didn't have it coming or that they don't deserve it, I'm just sick of the candy coating.

Bottom line is this - freedom costs a lot and you gotta want it bad. If the people of Iraq TRUELY wanted freedom they would have overthrown Saddam years ago. And don't sing me any BS that they couldn't - I'm sure the same thing was said about England 300 years ago.

Jeff
Why are terrorists beheading Americans?

I predict that the outrage over this will overshadow the much more heinous beheading of thousands with jetliners.
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Old 05-11-2004, 05:15 PM
Paradiddle Paradiddle is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrblaine
Why are terrorists beheading Americans?

I predict that the outrage over this will overshadow the much more heinous beheading of thousands with jetliners.
They've been beheading people for a long time. This isn't the firsts, and now with the prison treatment thing I suspect it won't be the last.

Don't you think we've given the extremists a lot of ammo to fuel their hatred lately?
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Old 05-11-2004, 05:19 PM
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Killers: Beheading Avenges Prison Abuse

52 minutes ago

By ROBERT H. REID, Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A video posted Tuesday on an al-Qaida-linked Web site showed the beheading of an American civilian in Iraq (news - web sites) and said the execution was carried out to avenge abuses of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison.

In a grisly gesture, the executioners held up the man's head for the camera.


The American identified himself on the video as Nick Berg, a 26-year-old Philadelphia native. His body was found near a highway overpass in Baghdad on Saturday, the same day he was beheaded, a U.S. official said.


The video bore the title "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi shown slaughtering an American." It was unclear whether al-Zarqawi ? an associate of Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) believed behind the wave of suicide bombings in Iraq ? was shown in the video or simply ordered the execution. Al-Zarqawi also is sought in the assassination of a U.S. diplomat in Jordan in 2002.


The Bush administration said those who beheaded Berg would be hunted down and brought to justice.


"Our thoughts and prayers are with his family," White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan said. "It shows the true nature of the enemies of freedom. They have no regard for the lives of innocent men, women and children."


Berg was a small-business owner who went to Iraq as an independent businessman to help rebuild communication antennas, his family said Tuesday. Friends and family said he was a "free spirit" who wanted to help others ? working in Ghana, in one example ? and that his going to Iraq fit with that ideology. They said he supported the Iraqi war and the Bush administration.


U.S. officials had feared the shocking photographs of U.S. soldiers abusing and humiliating Iraqis at Abu Ghraib prison west of Baghdad would endanger the lives of American troops and civilians.


Also, Berg's killing happened amid a climate of anti-Western sentiment, which flared in Iraq after last month's crackdown on Shiite extremists and the three-week Marine siege of Fallujah west of Baghdad. Anger at the United States swelled with the publication of the Abu Ghraib photographs, which continue to stir rage throughout the Arab world.


In the video, five men wearing headscarves and black ski masks stood over a bound man in an orange jumpsuit similar to prison uniforms.


"My name is Nick Berg. My father's name is Michael. My mother's name is Suzanne," the man, seated in a chair, said on the video. "I have a brother and sister, David and Sara. I live in ... Philadelphia."


The video then cut to Berg sitting on the floor, his hands tied behind his back, as a statement was read in Arabic. Berg sat still during the statement, facing the camera, occasionally raising his shoulders.


After the statement was finished, the men pulled Berg on his side and thrust a large knife to his neck. A scream sounded as the men cut his head off, repeatedly shouting "Allahu Akbar!" ? or "God is great."


They then held the head out before the camera.


The Bergs, who live the Philadelphia suburb of West Chester, Pa., last heard from their son April 9, the same day insurgents attacked a U.S. convoy west of the capital.


Berg attended Cornell, Drexel, the University of Pennsylvania and the University of Oklahoma, where he got involved in rigging electronics equipment while working for the maintenance department, his father said. He helped set up equipment at the Republican National Convention in Philadelphia in 2000.


While at Cornell, he traveled to Ghana to teach villagers how to make bricks out of minimal material. His father said Berg returned from Ghana emaciated because he gave away most of his food and that the only possessions he had when he returned were the clothes on his back.





Michael Berg said his son saw his trip to Iraq as an adventure that also fit with his desire to help others.

"I would say he was a free spirit, very intelligent," said Nick Fillioe, a sports director at the West Chester YMCA. "He was a real smart guy. He knew a little bit about everything."

Berg's family said they were informed by the State Department on Monday that he was found dead.

When told about the Web site, Berg's father, brother and sister grasped one another and slowly dropped to the ground in their front yard, where they wept quietly while holding each other.

"I knew he was decapitated before," Michael Berg said. "That manner is preferable to a long and torturous death. But I didn't want it to become public."

The decapitation recalled the kidnapping and videotaped beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl in 2002 in Pakistan. Four Islamic militants have been convicted of kidnapping Pearl, but seven suspects ? including those who allegedly slit his throat ? remain at large.

Last month, Iraqi militants videotaped the killing of Italian hostage Fabrizio Quattrocchi, but the Arab TV network Al-Jazeera refused to air it because it was too graphic.

In the video of Berg, the executioners said they had tried to trade him for prisoners at Abu Ghraib.

"For the mothers and wives of American soldiers, we tell you that we offered the U.S. administration to exchange this hostage for some of the detainees in Abu Ghraib and they refused," one of the men read from a statement.

"So we tell you that the dignity of the Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and others is not redeemed except by blood and souls. You will not receive anything from us but coffins after coffins ... slaughtered in this way."

Seven soldiers from the 372nd Military Police Company face charges in the mistreatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib in a scandal that has sparked worldwide outrage. One of those soldiers faces a court-martial in Baghdad next week, the first to go to trial.

The American administrator of Iraq, L. Paul Bremer, said Tuesday that the soldiers accused of abuses would be brought to justice.

"I find the behavior of these American soldiers completely unacceptable and outrageous," Bremer told Associated Press Television News. "I share the outrage of the Iraqi people and the people of the world as to what these guys did."

April 9, when Berg last made contact with his family, also was the day that seven American contractors working for a subsidiary of Halliburton Corp. and two military men disappeared after their supply convoy was attacked on the outskirts of Baghdad.

Four of the Halliburton workers and one of the military men have since been confirmed dead. Halliburton worker Thomas Hamill escaped his captors May 2 and returned home to Mississippi on Saturday. The two other Halliburton workers and the other soldier remain missing.

Two soldiers also vanished April 9. One was later found dead and the other, Pfc. Keith M. Maupin of Batavia, Ohio, was taken captive and remains missing.

In other developments Tuesday:

_ The head of Iraq's war-crimes tribunal said the United States has pledged to hand over Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) and about 100 other suspects to Iraqi authorities before July 1 if Iraq is ready to take them into custody. U.S. officials denied any decision had been reached.

_ Iraqi leaders in Najaf said radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr has agreed to end his violent standoff with the U.S.-led coalition if the Americans defer murder charges against him until a permanent constitution is adopted next year and an elected government takes office.

_ A Russian energy company worker was confirmed dead and two others abducted Monday when gunmen fired on their car south of Baghdad, Russian officials said.

_ A homemade bomb exploded in a crowded market in the northern city of Kirkuk, killing four Iraqis and wounding 23, a security official said.
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Old 05-11-2004, 06:06 PM
Daless2 Daless2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rick Bernotas
Hi Frank, how are you?

I don't know if I can answer your question to your satisfaction, but what I can tell you is that in my community there is a strong Muslim population that has long since denounced the actions of these violent groups with a great deal of outrage.

The problem for them seems to be this--you know how the public and the press always seem to forget about good deeds and honest, hardworking, good people? Since they don't seem to be interesting enough for the evening shows or the front page of the paper?

You know, these folks are not ranting separatists and they don't say controversial things, or fire off RPG's at soldiers, so they don't see much press coverage. They have families, go to work each day, serve their communities, whether that is here in the United States or in some other country. They don't fit the stereotype, even though their numbers are stronger than those who take advantage of their faith. They also aren't the convenient "victims" in this act for the press and public, like they were for the abuse scandals. Their outrage there seems newsworthy, I suppose. I guess its not so newsworthy when their faith is "terrorized" when Al Queda kills someone in their name. That's probably too grey of a concept for most folks to wrap their head around.

I'm not sure how different my community is from the rest of the world. I don't know if it matters. I do know the Muslim folks I know do as much as they can, and then also raise their children, serve their community, come to the 4th of July parade and stand up and salute our veterans, and so on.

They will also, I imagine, universally express their outrage at this world situation by the time the polls close in November. It may be a vote for incumbents or votes against. I think they, as individual Americans, are fully entitled to express their outrage exactly as they see fit, even if that is to simply cast a ballot, or to come here to live in the United States, or to establish a foundation to help their friends back home, or what have you.

In other words, I think our Muslim friends are more like us than they are different, especially in their feelings about the world situation today. They, like us, I am sure feel the same outrage at the poor leadership coming from every person claiming to represent them. I know I am sure outraged at the people claiming to represent me. Almost beyond my own sanity.
Hi Rick,

I'm doing ok my friend. Thanks for asking.

Every day air goes in and out of the lungs is a great day isn't it?

I understand your post completely and wouldn't argue with a single thing you have shared. The great majority (This is my belief) of Muslim peoples in this world are indeed good honest honorable people who are in every other major way just like me too.

Yet I am dumbfounded over this point and that is why I asked the question; Where is the World Wide Islamic Outrage?

Your point is well taken that people have a right to express their outrage in the way of their choosing.

Take the last couple of weeks and the collective outrage expressed over the prisoner abuse. In this event I seem to think I hear, (and could measure on the rector scale), the collective outrage of Muslims, and Non-Muslims alike?

Did I mis-hear that?


Yet with this new event, with the beheading of an American Civilian, all I hear from the worlds 1.5 Billion Muslims is a collective whisper and the claim to a right to be outraged in the way of their choosing.

That my freind is unacceptable, and if we accept it it becomes a very dangerous lesson being taught to the entire world about "Us and Them".


I wore the uniform of this great country for many many years, and I can tell you I was and am sick over the breakdown of leadership and command structure that allowed OUR people to grossly mistreat prisoners in our custody. Yes that's right, people who did this, IN MY NAME, should be condemned, and those officers in charge should be removed from command and prosecuted IN MY NAME.

Why would I expect anything less from the Islamic World, then I expect from myself?

I wouldn't and I won't. Why would anyone? Could it be simply Political Correctness that prevents us from bring this issue to the forefront? I think so.


For every "right" folks have to express their Outrage in the way of their choosing I have an "equal right" to express and point out to the world how much it is lacking!


There is no World Wide Islamic Outrage and I believe any reasonable person can see that, even if they don't like saying it or admitting it. It is fact unless someone can show me otherwise. I am not hard of hearing really.


There is not World Wide Islamic Outrage becuase the leadership of Islam is bankrupt.

How do I know that?

Well...... Lets see, Murder, in the form of a beheading of an American Civilian just happened in the NAME of ISLAM, but the leadership of Islam can't be heard condemning it. (I should now rest my case but I won't)


This my freind is what went on in that prison. It's caused by leadership failure and done IN OUR NAME. The difference is We, as a people seem to be Collectively Outraged and correct things as best they can be corrected.


I don't think it is unreasonable to EXPECT the same level of outrage from the World Wide Islamic Community for MURDER in their name. Do you?



We could analyze all the reasons for evil to death, and probably will, yet the bottom line is quite simple; I don't know how to create Understanding and Empathy between diverse groups of people, but I do know how to destroy it. Collectively we are all doing it right now.

Show me no moral equivalence between you and I and I will show you peoples who will hate each other till their last breath.

No I will not accept it as "OK", becuase it is someone's right to say nothing and do nothing when evil goes on.

Why?

Well lets see 12 million reasons in the concentration camps come to mind. Or 22 million on the Russian front, of 4 million in Cambodia, to say nothing of the millions the U.N. allowed in genocide in Africa for decades!

I expect more of the people of the world, and I think you and everyone else should too. Else we will never lead ourselves out of this mess.


I have to be one of the most pro-Palestinian people on the planet. I believe they are oppressed every bit as much as the German's did the Jews and the Polish Catholics during World War II. That does not make me pro-Palestinian terrorist!

The reason, the ONLY reason, the Palestinians do not have a home land today is simple. Their leaders and their people do not allow their people to be OUTRAGED at what every human being in this world knows is wrong, murder of innocents.


If I am unwilling to accept this attitude (and choice) of the Palestinians (who I believe are oppressed), why would I accept if of the entire Islamic Religion.

This is wrong, murder in my name, or murder in Islam's Name. And good men need to sand up and simply say so regardless of Political Correctness.


There is no World Wide Islamic Outrage over the beheading of an America Civilian, and I stand up and say this wrong and unacceptable human behavior.

I challenge anyone to show me otherwise. I don't want to hear why, I don't want to hear the Islamic World justification, or rational.

I want to hear the outrage of humanity, collectively, not selectively.

And without that Outrage? Well it molds how I think of you, what I think of you, and how I interface with you. and that my freind is simply human nature.

I do EXPECT, no, I DEMAND to hear the World Wide Islamic Outrage of murder committed in Islam's Name. I want to hear it condemned, and I believe any reasonable person in the world can understand why.

Frank
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Old 05-11-2004, 06:11 PM
cbassett cbassett is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paradiddle
I realize this doesn't answer the question, but...
The problem is we can no longer stand on our high horse and declare that type of treatment as "evil" - because we are doing it as well.
We might not be chopping off heads, or at least none that we've heard of yet, but our actions to the prisonors is just as degrading and wrong.
That whole place is a giant mess and we just need to figure out how to get the hell outta there without losing more political face.
Jeff
I could not disagree more.

We are not beheading innocent and/or defenseless individuals. The only evidence revealed thus far is that a few prisoners have been subjected to humiliating and emotionally stressful practices. What has not been released (more likely is being withheld), is whether these practices were in the course of interrogative and/or punitive purpose. Being as an unknown number of these prisoners are the same combatants that dressed as civilians, used civilians as human shields, took shelter and and fired upon U.S. forces from wholy places and places dense with civilians, I'd suggest that if these pictures reveal the extent of our interrogative and punitive measures, then these sonofabitches are getting off far far too easy.
DO NOT compare the beheading of an INNOCENT CIVILIAN to the "mistreatment" of THE ENEMY!

F*ck political face. We are in a complete state of clusterf*ck because of concern of political face and political positioning.

The person(s) that leaked the prison photos to the press should be considered an enemy of the State, imprisoned, and tried for treason.
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Old 05-11-2004, 06:27 PM
BlueJeeper BlueJeeper is offline
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Hi Frank,

I get it, of course, and I think I understand you better when you clarify that you are referring to the leadership of Muslim nations.

Yes, there should be outrage over their hypocrisy. Those leaders should be outraged themselves. I see outrage from everyday citizens, in my community. I don't watch this stuff on the TV anymore. So I don't know what they are saying there about outrage over hypocrisy of Muslim leadership. I also don't know what folks are saying to each other in other communities. I am just saying that I do see that outrage all the time from normal folks in my community, and that is my experience. Maybe these folks are the new leaders of their community, I sure hope so.

What I see amongst my friends and family, who come from many different cultures and ethnicities, is common outrage at all world leadership over their hypocrisy. The world would be a much better place if folks did not say one thing and do another. It is hard work for sure as I am often finding that I say hypocritical things! But I definitely agree with the essence of what you are saying. It is very frustrating to me as well.
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Old 05-11-2004, 06:37 PM
NAILER341 NAILER341 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by John
I just watched the video and can't help but wonder the same thing as Frank. For a group that's supposed to be all about peace they sure are selective about it.
HOLY ****! is this video ever graphic. however, we are now on the same low moral standing as these sick bastards.
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Old 05-11-2004, 06:40 PM
Daless2 Daless2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rick Bernotas
Hi Frank,

The world would be a much better place if folks did not say one thing and do another. It is hard work for sure as I am often finding that I say hypocritical things!
Hi Rick,


Join the club. We all do my friend, myself more then most.

I believe you and I are on the same page, same book.


I don't believe there are any good people or bad people. We are simply people and we each choose every day to do what we do, Good or Evil.

I am sick and tired of the choices we make, individually and collectively, for political expedience or to placate one group over the other.

We should all Expect and Demand More from ourselves first and each other next. I see nothing wrong, only right in that.

No acceptations, no matter what.

Frank
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Old 05-11-2004, 06:46 PM
BlueJeeper BlueJeeper is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Daless2
We should all Expect and Demand More from ourselves first and each other next. I see nothing wrong, only right in that.
Those are great words to live by.

Have a great night Frank,
Rick
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Old 05-11-2004, 07:22 PM
cbassett cbassett is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by NAILER341
HOLY ****! is this video ever graphic. however, we are now on the same low moral standing as these sick bastards.
Yeah, thoroughly embarassing and denigrating THE ENEMY is the equivilant of beheading, burning to death, and parading the body parts of INNOCENT CIVILIANS AND POWS. You have got to be f*cking kidding me!
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Old 05-11-2004, 07:50 PM
NAILER341 NAILER341 is offline
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Originally posted by cbassett
Yeah, thoroughly embarassing and denigrating THE ENEMY is the equivilant of beheading, burning to death, and parading the body parts of INNOCENT CIVILIANS AND POWS. You have got to be f*cking kidding me!
when something is wrong. it is wrong. these photos of what our soldiers are doing to their pows sure makes us look good.
RIGHT! i cant think of many instances that would make it ok to torture, degrade, and just take ridiculous pictures to look cool.
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Old 05-11-2004, 08:02 PM
cbassett cbassett is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by NAILER341
when something is wrong. it is wrong. these photos of what our soldiers are doing to their pows sure makes us look good.
RIGHT! i cant think of many instances that would make it ok to torture, degrade, and just take ridiculous pictures to look cool.

The solitary thing we can agree on is that those pictures do not make us look good. Those pictures should have never reached the public domain.
Allow me to educate you on "instances that would make it ok to torture, degrade, and just take ridiculous pictures."

TIMES OF WAR, when either extracting information from THE ENEMY or exacting punitive measures to captive ENEMIES.
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Old 05-11-2004, 08:05 PM
NAILER341 NAILER341 is offline
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think about what you are saying.. it seems you are talking out of one side of your face. we are not the only ones at war here.. what you are saying is that it is ok for them to do what they do as well.. we are a civilized nation of people, and should act accordingly.
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Old 05-11-2004, 08:38 PM
cbassett cbassett is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by NAILER341
think about what you are saying.. it seems you are talking out of one side of your face. we are not the only ones at war here.. what you are saying is that it is ok for them to do what they do as well.. we are a civilized nation of people, and should act accordingly.
You should think about what I am saying. We are at war with people that murder innocent civilians and parade slaughtered body parts, and people like you are shunning our military because we embarrased a few naked enemies.
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Old 05-11-2004, 08:51 PM
NAILER341 NAILER341 is offline
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i an CERTAINLY NOT shunning our military in any way shape or form. i am simply saying that what they did to those pow's is wrong. so is what they are doing to our pow's, ans civilians on the street. what those very few members of our military did to those pow's doesnt make ANYTHING right. what it does is give everyone that sees those pictures the perseption that we are now stooping to their level. we as civilized americans are above that type of stuff. i understand we are at war, and we will kill many of thir people that is what war is all about. i'm sure we have, and will continue to kill some of their civilians, but you can bet your ass this was by accident. that is what sets us apart from them. [uncivilized]
agggh. there is no point to this argument. you are going to continue on in your day, and feel that what they did to the pow's in those pictures is ok, and i am going to go on with my day and see that what was done in these instances was not.
and that is ok.
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