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  #1  
Old 06-24-2002, 10:24 AM
Stu Olson Stu Olson is offline
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Sierra Club Letter

The following text was snipped from my e-mail that went to the Sierra Club this morning. I thought some of you may enjoy it and will hopefully get some ideas (or do some cut and pasting) and forward it to them and other anti-recreationist organizations.

---------------------------

I am writing this e-mail to request that you help supply resources and financial support to the displaced people in Arizona and other SW states who no longer have a home to live in because of the wild fires.

Both the local and national media channels are reporting that the years and years of anti-forest actions, for which the Sierra Club and other anti-recreationist organizations are so well known, are the major contributing actions to the severity of these wild fires.

The following true/false question is an example of the misinformation you spread via your web site: http://www.sierraclub.org/logging/re...iz_answers.asp


True or False: Forest fires pose a major threat to home and communities.

Sierra Club?s Answer: FALSE - Homes and communities can take numerous precautions to reduce the threat of forest fires.

A quote from today?s MSNBC:

?The fire has destroyed at least 186 homes, Paxon said, including 116 homes in towns just west of Show Low. The other 70 were in Heber-Overgaard, a community 35 miles west of Show Low that was overrun Saturday.?

Perhaps you would like to take a trip to Heber-Overgaard or Show Low, Arizona and explain your ridiculous forest management concepts to the 25,000 Arizona residents who have fled from the fire?s path. With over 300,000 acres burning and more still to come, a half dozen communities have been or are still threatened by the devastation of these uncontrollable forest fires. And this is just in Arizona.

Years and years of your ?don?t cut the trees because you?ll go to hell? preaching and millions upon millions of dollars wasted by our government agencies defending themselves from your ridiculous lawsuits have put us where we are today. Are you aware that your lawsuits have caused as much as 40% of the US Forest Service?s budget to be wasted in the nation?s courtrooms rather than being used to provide resources for the thousands of brave fire fighters who are trying to do their job here in Arizona?

Oh, before I forget, I want to personally take the time to thank your organization for all the pain and suffering it has caused the people here in Arizona. Rumor has it that the families who have lost their homes in the blaze are a bit too preoccupied to extend their heart felt thanks to you right now. I am sure you understand, true (or false)?

I believe it is time to put your millions were your cake hole is and extend a helping hand to the people whose lives you have shattered. Charity begins at home, so the saying goes. Given the fact that you have ?members? living here in Arizona and all over the southwestern US, you can?t get much more home than that, true (or false)?

For once in your pathetic lives, do something that will actually help someone. Step up to the plate and accept responsibility for the decades of misdirection you have shoved at the people of our great country.


Stu Olson

---------------------------------

I was feeling a little ****y this morning and after stumbling on the Sierra Club web site, I felt the need to write a note to them.

One of our local Jeepers who sits on a number of OHV committees at both the local, state, and federal level got hold of it and forwarded it to a number of land management agencies. The responses she got back were very favorable and they asked that she encourage others to write similar letters to these organizations and to their elected officials.

Oh.....one last comment. Not that is comes as any surprose, but it is rather interesting that there is not a single word about wild fires on the Sierra Club home page. Every one and their mother is reporting about the southwest wild fires and the good ol' folks at SC are laying low....DUH....now why would that be?

As I told the locals on the VJC e-mail reflector, I am taking this opportunity to talk about the problems that SC and others have caused at every chance I get....the water cooler, the coffee pot break room, etc. All of the forest mismanagement and these horiffic wild fires are the result of the Sierra Club's propaganda campaign over the last 100+ years. (yeah, they were founded in 1892)
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  #2  
Old 06-24-2002, 10:58 AM
Robert J. Yates Robert J. Yates is offline
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Wow,
I know who I don't want to **** off Good job Stu.
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  #3  
Old 06-24-2002, 11:54 AM
Dan-H Dan-H is offline
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Stu,

excellent letter.

I have been thinking the same things as I watch the news reports, but you did a great job of putting this into words AND sending that letter.

- Dan
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Old 06-24-2002, 12:19 PM
Stu Olson Stu Olson is offline
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There are a dozen or so e-mail addresses at the Sierra Club web site....under the Contact Us link.

Feel free to use anything out of my letter you wish. Please send a note and tell them you are not happy with what it happening and that it is there fault. CC: your state Senators, etc., and let me know how you feel too!

Please do not stand by the wayside and let these things go undone.....it only takes a couple of minutes for you to be heard.
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Old 06-24-2002, 01:13 PM
Paradiddle Paradiddle is offline
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I agree with your message, but I'm going to play devils advocate here.

You should state exactly how Sierra Club policies play a role (other than the budget/spending issue) in these fires.

One take as a tax payer is this - I don't give a rats a$$ about any organization - I pay the federal goverment more than a little to maintain things. One of the things they are supposed to maintain is the national parks/goverment land.

If they can't handle it with their current budget then they either need more money or it goes to a public company to maintain. The BOM should tell the Sierra Club to go screw themselves and let them do their job. With our current yahoo for a president, I'm sure he'd support the disbandment of the greenies.

That is my only "statement" - I'd love to see the proof that the sierra club policies lead to increased fire danger - that can be spun into a Newpaper article if one were to write it well and leave out the emotion - just lay out the facts as an editorial.

Just my .02 from the cheap seats - I'm in no way slamming you Stu.

Point me in the right direction so I can write my own letter.

Jeff
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Old 06-24-2002, 01:38 PM
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  #7  
Old 06-24-2002, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paradiddle
You should state exactly how Sierra Club policies play a role (other than the budget/spending issue) in these fires.
The overabundance of undergrowth in the areas is the cause of the severity of the fires.

The proper way to manage this is to have controlled burns every few years to "weed out" the undergrowth and maintain a healthy environment. Nature had been doing this for millions of years, with lighting causing the fires. The trees in the forest eventually become stronger and more resillient since they don't have to fight the undergrowth for light and nutrients.

The Sierra Club says we must quench all fires all the time and never burn one twig on one tree. This is in direct opposition to how it happens naturally. They even go so far as pursuing legal action (the 40% of the forest service's budget's worth) to prevent controlled burns. And that makes them at least partially responsible because they set up the conditions for these out of control fires through their direct actions.
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Old 06-24-2002, 02:43 PM
Stu Olson Stu Olson is offline
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Jeff,

You make a point.

Fact: The timber stand in the current 300,000 acres of burning forest was approximately 150 trees per acre.

Fact: Forestry officials suggest that no more than 50 trees per acre be allowed in order to reduce the severity of the fire should one break out.

I do not have the resources to sit down and research every campaign, ralley, protest, fund raiser, etc. that was supported by the greens in order to shut down timber harvesting in that part of the Arizona. You could speak with the people that lived in that area when it all stopped. I feel confident they can give more insight than I can.

This not a slam on you. You are going to have to dig for some of the information.

From Senator Jon Kyl, Arizona:

http://kyl.senate.gov/p062002.htm
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Old 06-24-2002, 03:46 PM
Paradiddle Paradiddle is offline
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Stu and Derf (who's scruffy looking?)

Thanks - that's what I was looking for.

Jeff
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Old 06-24-2002, 05:06 PM
Stu Olson Stu Olson is offline
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Article from today's news paper. Note the comments about the envionrmentalists (bad term....that should really be anti-recreationists....because I am an environmentalist!)


by Mary Jo Pitzl
The Arizona Republic
June 24, 2002 12:00:00



The fires ravaging northeast Arizona are incinerating the world's largest contiguous area of ponderosa pine, Gov. Jane Hull said Sunday. But it didn't have to be this way.


That's because for the past century, the United States has let its forests grow thick with underbrush, creating lush, rustic landscapes that, with the right conditions, can turn into potent tinderboxes.

But turning that policy around has ignited a firestorm of its own, pitting politicians against environmentalists and forest dwellers against forest managers.

As the "Rodeo-Chediski" fire roared through Arizona's high country, governors from Western states meeting in Phoenix this week launched a broadside against environmentalists, who the governors and others say have opposed controlled burns that would reduce fire-prone undergrowth.

U.S. Sen. Jon Kyl, R-Ariz., joined the chorus, saying that environmentalists have pressured Congress not to spend money on the burns. In an interview Sunday with KTAR-AM (620), he said the Forest Service spends 40 percent of its annual budget defending itself against environmental groups.

Hull criticized the lawsuits and layers of administrative process that she said have prevented more aggressive efforts to clear the nation's forests of dense underbrush.

"We've got to clean up these forests," Hull said. "Mother Nature is telling us to do so."

Spreading the message is one thing; practicing it can be quite another.
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Old 06-24-2002, 06:18 PM
Mark Hinkley Mark Hinkley is offline
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Jeff,

I can't beleive what I just read!!!!

Open your eyes!!!

mark
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  #12  
Old 06-24-2002, 07:49 PM
Paradiddle Paradiddle is offline
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Mark - I was asking for some factual data beyond emotion, because writing letter full of emotion and no facts gets you no where with politicians.

I got exactly what I was looking for - thanks everyone.

Very interesting stuff.

Jeff
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Old 06-24-2002, 09:08 PM
Daless2 Daless2 is offline
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Stu,

My complements not only on the letter which you wrote, but more importantly on what you are trying to do in getting others to write as well.

I am no expert on Forest Management, but I don't think it takes an expert to see that there is a problems here that needs to be fixed badly.

Stu's approach it the right one. Numbers people!

It doesn't matter if the numbers are represented in an emotional manor or in a straight forward factual matter. Numbers matter, yet we all so infrequently focus on any one issue to apply the numbers.

An Example.

Have you ever notice how gas prices in the summer always go up on Thursday afternoon and back down late Sunday night?

We all see this, we all know it, and we all know it is to increase profits when people need the gas more for weekend travel.

Can we not buy gas for the weekend? Hardly. Yet we could, if we focused, Not Buy Gas from one particular Brand! (Pick one, any one! But all of us need to do it!)

What do you think would happen if this weekend no one bought gas from Exxon Gas Stations all across America?

I think Exxon would get the message becuase the numbers would be screaming it to them.

The focus of consumer groups would demand prices that don't rip off, or no business for Exxon.

Life is simple, message is simple too!

The problem is in motivating everyone to the same action.

Well, same is true here. The SC is successful becuase they focus on "their" issues and don't care what effects "their" issues have on anyone else.

They know what their mission is and they stay on mission. You have to admire their exicution, if not all they do.

Think about that.

Obviously for those effected in a negative way this isn't goodness, yet the FOCUS the SC applies to staying on their message and issues certainly has been good for the SC.

It's called "Being Effective" and they are!

They are organized, or at least railed around a common mission. If you want to change their mission then you must apply a focus to your own mission and your own actions, individually and collectively.

Stu is right, everyone should consider writing.

Everyone should express what they think and feel, regardless of what that is.

We certainly aren't all going to agree on everything here, but I bet we all have an opinion that is related to one degree or another.

Apply the numbers folks and we can make a difference.

And if the difference we make isn't good enough?.....

Well then, we get what we deserve,. We get what someone else says we should get.....

And that my friends doesn't always taste so good.

Well done Stu.

Frank
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Old 06-24-2002, 10:15 PM
Stu Olson Stu Olson is offline
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Two things I want to say...well, three actually.

#1. Jeff....I was far from being emotional when I wrote that letter. I spent the better part of an hour putting it together.....were I emotional, it would have gone out in 5 minutes. I carefully, as best I could, picked my words and attempted to use the same style of writing that hopefully will evoke emotion in the reader....which the Sierra Club does so wonderfully (unfortunately). I am not nearly as gifted at doing that as so many others are....but I try the best I can because I really do care.

#2. Frank....thanks for the words and support. You did indeed see what I was attempting to do and I thank you for explaining it in a way that only you can do.

#3. I am damn proud to say that both myself and another friend of mine here in Phoeinx really did make a difference today. The URL that I noted in my initial posting is no longer linked on the Sierra Club web site. The page itself is still there and can be seen by surfing directly to it....but the link that got you there through the National Forest page is now missing. My buddy here in Phoenix wrote a similar letter this morning and chose a different page from the SC web site on which to vent. He wrote me earlier this evening to tell me that they pulled the link to that page as well.

Never have I seen any results from this kind of action, albeit I have tried many times in the past. I am proud to say that this time, I know that I made a difference....enough so that the Sierra Club rethought the propaganda they had on that page. I know they will be back with something else in a week's time, no doubt, but this proves you can make a difference. Now just think what could happen if we all did it together.
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Old 06-25-2002, 04:26 AM
karstman karstman is offline
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Great letter Stu !!

FWIW - even the media (local radio talk shows) out here is taking aim at the "environmental wackos" and USFS management practices.
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Old 06-25-2002, 07:00 AM
Paradiddle Paradiddle is offline
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That is great Stu. I wasn't accusing you of anything, I've just seen too many of these "fight the power" things turn into a cuss fest that really ends up hurting the cause more than helping it.

Regarding Daless post - boycotting the gas companies is a lost cause - there is no elasticity of demand with gas. You need it and they know it. So don't buy gas on a weekend - they'll adjust the price to when you do buy it.

Want to hurt the gas companies - buy an electric car or push our government to invoke campaign reform so big oil doesn't have the power it has now.

Back to the SC and their insane policies - the real fault lies in us tolerating our government when it comes to lobbying.

The reality is the SC is doing a great job at forwarding their cause - however wrong it is. They have brainwashed their constiturency and are using our government against us.

What really needs to happen is more checks and balences on goverment kickbacks and campaign contributions that would effectively strip the SC of it's influence and level the playing field.

I love to see a senator lashing out against the SC - he is probably covering his own a$$.

I will write my congressmen/women today as I do agree that if we sit back and do nothing this is what we get.

I can't wait until we have true campaign finance reform so these special interest don't have the power they have now.

Jeff
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Old 06-25-2002, 08:14 AM
Jason L Williams Jason L Williams is offline
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Stu,
Great letter. I had just finished sending a letter to Senator Finstein here in CA opposing Senator's Boxer's Wilderness proposal. Hopefully the rest of the legislature will take notice. I wish I would have read your letter first.
Maybe there will be some good out of the negative publicity the SC and other greenie groups have been receiving as of late. My local news had also made reference to the over growth and that the Environmentalist could be somewhat to blame with their "anti-burn" tactics.

Thanks for the push.
Jason
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Old 06-25-2002, 07:43 PM
Daless2 Daless2 is offline
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Regarding Daless post - boycotting the gas companies is a lost cause - there is no elasticity of demand with gas. You need it and they know it. So don't buy gas on a weekend - they'll adjust the price to when you do buy it.


Hi Jeff,

Given how you have explained this I couldn't agree with you more.

It's called "Pricing Power", meaning the gas stations have individual and collective control of the commodity price which we consumers want or need.


However, I don't advocate that consumers stop buying gas, I advocate that individually and collectively we stop buying gas from ONE PARTICULAR gas supplier!

There is a very big difference.


All stations use their "Pricing Power" to raise the gas prices on weekends becuase they can. They can only becuase we let them.

Let me explain how it works.


For the sake of this discussion lets assume in this model there are only four gas station in the USA. And, they are all located at the same intersection of two roads.

There is Exxon, Schell, Conoco, and Texaco. For the most part, their price per gallon is within a penny or two of each other.


Now along comes Thursday night, just prior to the peak demand by the consumer for the coming weekend, they all raise their price 20 cents per gallon.


Why do they do this? Pricing Power!! (They can!)



Now here is how to stop it or modify their behavior.


Pick one of the four brands. Everyone picks the same brand, and no one buys gas from that brand. (You will never get that to happen, but you could significantly reduce the amount of business that brand is doing.)


If you reduce the volume of business that particular brand (company) does, you reduce their gross revenues, and in turn reduce profits, and increase expenses as they relate to underutilized capital investments.

This hurts my friend, big time, particularly in this day and age of corporate "Next Quarter Profits".

So what has happened here.

Profit for the gas company we are all boycotting go down for the weekend, and consumer gas prices for the weekend have stayed the same, only all gas was purchased from the three other stations.


So what is the boycotted gas station to do?

Well if they are Galactically Stupid they will raise their prices to make more profit per gallon, to make up for their lost business. (This is called the K-Mart approach in my business. It is also known as "Eating Your Offspring".)


What happens when they raise their prices to make up for their lost profits and their three competitor on the other corners do not?

They lose More Business! (i.e. Kmart, a consumer products marketeer, vs. Wal-Mart, Target, Kohl's, etc.)


Now if the boycotted gas station is this galactically stupid, and their three competitors are half-way Smart, they will lower their price per gallon, making less profit per gallon, but making it up in the volume they are capturing from the boycotted gas station.


So what do we have here:

Boycotted station is stupid (galactically!), tries to make up profits by raising prices. Competitor are smart and go after market share and increased volume.

How does this effect the gas consuming public? We get to buy gas cheaper from the three stations.


Now let say the management of the boycotted gas station Isn't Stupid, but rather enlightened and they see the error of their ways for having been put into this business box.

They elect to lower their prices, instead of raising them.


Hmmmm....... Four gas stations, all on the same corner, one is cheaper then the other three. What's going to happen?


Consumers will beat a path to the cheaper station, and the cheaper (once boycotted) station will be making LESS profit per gallon, but MORE profit overall from the volume increase in gallons sold!


So what do we have here now?

Boycotted station see the error of it's ways and lowers prices. They make increased overall profits due to increased sales volume.

Gas consuming public gets lower prices at the once boycotted gas station then they can at the other three.

Business (profits) at the other three stations go down, and management there has a choice to make, be Galactically Stupid and raise prices, only to loose more business and profits, (Kmart Model again) or lower prices to meet the competition across the corner.



When consumers take individual and collective action again any ONE company which sells a commodity that can easily be purchased from other suppliers, the consumers are in effect taking "Pricing Power" away from the gas stations, and replace it with "consumer action power."


For sure there are many permutations that could be discussed in this example, and each would have some "plus or minus" impact on the overall effectiveness of this type of consumer action. But none the less, this model is sound and occurs every single day all across America.

Consumer actions take place all the time naturally, without organization. Look at Kmart's business (10 years ago the largest retailer in the world, today in Chapter 11 Bankruptcy Court), and Wal-Mart's business (in 1968 one Ben Franklin Store in Arkansas, and now the largest company In The World with $1 Billion Dollars a Day in revenue.)

Both Wal-Mart and Kmart basically sell the same things. Yet one made a mistake 10 years ago in raising it's prices to increased profit margins and the other then lowered it's prices and decreased profit margins, but made more total profit from the volume increases in sales.

Who won?

Well that is debatable I guess, but most people would say Wal-Mart and the Consumers, and that Kmart lost.

Life is simple, and business is simple too. But business is a game of Strategy, Tactics, and Logistics, just like the Military.

Whomever does it best wins. And whomever is motivated to do it best wins too.


Pick a gas brand, any ONE brand.

Get everyone to pick the same brand, and it is a guarantee; stop buying gas there for some period of time and prices will come down. (Economics 101)


It doesn't matter if they reduce their prices or not.

Their competitor will.

And that is where the consumer wins! (Or in this case at least doesn't get ripped off on the Weekend Price Hikes.)


Sorry Jeff, I get carried away. Couldn't help myself. This is what I do for a living these days. I keep some rather large companies from doing Galactically Stupid Things!

Thanks for putting up with me.

Frank

PS: Kmart is not one of my clients!
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Old 06-27-2002, 03:42 PM
Dan-H Dan-H is offline
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interesting article.

http://www.arizonarepublic.com/opini...7Thur2-27.html
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Old 07-12-2002, 09:55 PM
Felix Santi Felix Santi is offline
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I just sent the SC an email also after reading their site. The fire wasn't their fauly. And of course all the hype are lies, they are the savior of the country. Damn, I need to wash my hands now. Check out the link:http://www.sierraclub.org/logging/fires.asp

Oh well, maybe one day they'll be sued and life returns to normal
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