Tire Bead Sealer for NON Bead-Lock Wheels

[Daless2]

Tire Bead Sealer for NON Bead-Lock Wheels


Hi Folks, last week I ran into my friend Dodd (JeepNut) out at the Waffle House (Best coffee around!).

I was on my way to Wal-Mart to have my BFG/MT 32x11.50 tires balanced, and Dodd mentioned he was having a problem with spinning his wheels a bit, inside the tires, when aired way down. ( 35x12.50 @ 8PSI)

Funny he mentioned this.

For the last 7 or 8 months I had been doing some testing. I shared it with Dodd, and now you guys get it too.

Every time I go wheeling, the next day I head over to Wal-Mart for my free tire balancing, and every time all of my tires need to be balanced.

Sometimes this is because I have lost a wheel weight, but most of the time no wheel weights had been missing.

I often wondered, ?Could I really be loosing that much rubber on each off-road trip?? It didn?t look like it, but ?..

Last August I began investigating this and doing some testing.

I remembered back to my early 60?s drag racing days, and how a wheel would sometimes spin around the tire bead when aired down and under those high torque starts.

With this thought in mind, I painted a small line on all my tires and wheels on the inside and went off roading. I also inventory the wheel balancing weights on each wheel.

When I returned from the day I checked to see if those painted lines were still lined up.

They were NOT!

The wheels-to-tires, in the rear where the most off. One side was off by almost three (3) inches, and the other rear was off a little less than two (2) inches.

Both front wheel-to-tire rotations where off about ? inch.

I had not lost any wheel balancing weights.


Hummmm??

I took my Jeep to Wal-Mart for a balancing and sure enough all tires needed it.

I did this a second time the following week (Back in August, 2001) and sure enough, the wheels had rotated similar amounts within the tire beads. I am assuming because I am air way down that this is the cause of this. (For me air down is 10 PSI on 15x8 aluminum rims.)

Once again, all four tires had to be re-balanced. (Only one had lost a balancing weight.)

To make a long story short, this time I had the beads broken on the rims and coated both inner and outer beads with Permetex Bead Sealer. Then the tires where balanced again.

I painted new line markers on the wheels and tires back in September, and have been out wheeling only 7 times since then.

Since the bead sealer I have had NO Wheel Spin inside the tires.

Also?.

I have taken my Jeep in for tire balancing each times since then and have only had to have two tires in these seven trips balanced. One of the two had lost a balancing weight.

Last week I had to have a valve replaced. Breaking the bead with the Bead Seal on it didn?t present any problems. It broke cleanly on the machine and didn?t appear to rip at the bead or leave any rubber residue on the rim.

Bottom line, I think there might very well be some value in using Bad Sealer to keep the wheel from spinning in the tire while aired down and applying high torque.

I plan to keep testing this, especially now that I should be able to get out and wheel once a week again. I?ll keep you posted on what I come up with.

Frank

[HIGLET]

Originally posted by Daless2
[B]
Hi Folks, last week I ran into my friend Dodd (JeepNut) out at the Waffle House (Best coffee around!).

Frank

Mmmmmm

Waffle House.

One of my favorite places to eat, wish we had them out here. I spent 6 weeks in Louisville working on "The Insider" and I ate at the "Waffle House" every day.


Mmmmmm

Waffle House.


Oh yeah, nice write up on the tire thingy.

[Stu Olson]

Frank, good post.

I have a question for you.....your friend's wheels and your wheels (on which the tires were slipping), are they steel or aluminum?

[mrblaine]

Frank, do a search on JU at around 18 mos ago. I did the same thing with drastically different results.

I was spending enough money on tire balancing to make payments on beadlocks. (this was before America's Tire offered lifetime balancing)

I was using the bead sealer on 15x8 American Eagle alloys, and marked the rim and tires the way you did. I was rotating the tire sometimes as much as 270 degrees on the rim. The bead sealer made no difference. I now own beadlocks and for that reason only. I only ever rolled one bead off on a trail, so I had few fears there. I just grew tired of paying for balancing every time I went offroad.

I usually aired down to 8 psi with a 35 inch tire.

Only after I purchased beadlocks and swapped the tires over did I discover the actual problem. The AE rims had been powdercoated an aluminum color on the interior and the super slick surface is what let the tires slip.

Kat's tires on the MT rims do not slip on the rim very much if any at all. She also has lifetime balance at America's Tire.

[ZUK]

Daless2---Only a handful of people realize that and the rest never even gave it a thought but I did that same test back in 1996 or so....was in Moab and we marked Mickey Mouses' tires and mine before we hit the trails. Afterwards, the yellow crayon marks had shifted anywheres from 1" to a foot. Now the economics of it was going thru my head just like Mrblaine.....I just spent 50 bucks wheel balance at Discount Tire at the time driving all the way up to Moab from Phoenix and now the tires had all shifted from just one trail and now I had to deal with the highway ride back. I saw beadlocks as a cost saving device then. I am not familiar with the Permatex brand of bead sealer you used but I am surprised it is working for you....it's probably fairly thin stuff and is designed to seal air in at normal pressures. I can see Mrblaine spinning his tires with it.
Along the lines of the sealant stuff.....I was having an interesting prob about 6 months to a year ago......My beadlocked 36" TSLs would loose air to the INNER bead on all the tires...real easy too. So easy, I could not complete a trail without at least one tire loosing all its air(the bead stayed on also). I knew it was peculiar to my aluminum rims and TSLs. I could not afford to beadlock the inside so, at the recommendation of a friend, I tried a thick,gooey,sticky roofing sealant....man, problem gone. As a matter of fact, the stuff might be really effective on the OUTER side of wheels....like a poor man's beadlock. See this link which I have posted numerous times on the other board. Oh ya, it takes 2 full weeks for the black to come off the fingers! http://www.dreamwater.com/zuk/beadseal.html

[Daless2]

Hi Folks,

Yes! I think lifetime balancing is something close to the greatest thing since sliced bread!

Just arrived back from a great day of wheeling down in an area called Livingston. When I checked my tires there does not seem to be any slippage, but it looks like I lost one weigh balancing weight on the right front. (Maybe I will glue them on with permetex too!)

Back to Wal-Mart in the morning.

Stu, I have the Factory Aluminum Wheels that came on the Sahara for 97 year. For the life of me I can't remember what they are called. They are 15X8 with five circles in them.

I'm thinking after reading Blaine's comments that perhaps my problem is similar to that which he had with the powder coating. My wheels are clear coated.

While I don't know and never gave that a thought, perhaps the clear coat was sprayed on the bead area of the wheel when they were made.

Thinking about this from a leverage perspective I can see where this bead sealer may not do the trick for a larger tire. Mine are only 32x11.50. And I only air down to 10 PSI.

I'm not sure what wheels Dodd has on his TJ, but I know his tires are rather large. I think 37's. If he goes this route I'll be sure to keep in touch to see if it buys him anything.

Hey Zuk, thanks for the info on the roofing cement.

The Permetex bead sealer isn't very think at all, but it sure is sticky! Consistency is somewhat like Honey, but very stringy and sticky. If in the future I start having problems again I will give your suggestion a try.

For my application with the 32's bead locks would be a bit over kill. But for Dodd, that's a different story.

I hope he tries the permetex. I'd be interested if it makes any difference for him with those big tires. Perhaps he will have the same results as Blaine and just go with the bead locks. I will make him aware to check the surface for powder coat or clear coat first.

Thanks for all your feedback folks. It's a great hobby isn't it?

Frank

PS: Today was the first really good workout of my new Atlas 3.8

I had replace a Tera4Low with the Atlas. I could not tell any real difference in performance give the ratio is 5% smaller. But I have to say, the gear whine, or major lacking of gear whine was a welcome relief to my ears. After 10 hours of hard (for me) rock climbing it really quieted down. I am quite impressed.

[Milan]

Frank,
Great post. I have been marking and cursing my constantly rotating tires for over a year. Sometimes they're off by 1" sometimes by 180 degrees or more. I thought about the bead "glue" and screwing the bead down but after talking to Blaine, I decided to go for beadlocks.


mrblaine,
I tried Champion Wheels but they never got back to me. Any other sources for good beadlocks? Or should I try them again? I think Seth had a nice set of MT Classic II's. Were those by Champion?

FWIW, my rims are steel and powdercoated, so maybe the bead was too slippery to begin with. I notice most movement in the snow as the snow melts in the bead area and the water makes it really easy for the tires to spin. With the 4.3:1 t-case I'm able to spin rims inside 33s as easily as inside 35s.

[Stu Olson]

Frank,

I asked about the wheel type because a friend of mine recently replaced his steel wheels running 35" MT/Rs with alloy wheels running 37" MT/Rs.

We got to talking about it and he mentioned that he didn't have to balance his new tire/wheel combo after each run like he was doing with the steel wheels. He said that when he checked the too, the steel wheels were very smooth and slippery (so to speak) around the bead area where as the alloy wheels were rather rough/textured.

He was most happy with the new alloy wheel performance. He also weighed his before and after setups and says that the overall combined weight say almost the same.....got rid of a heavier wheel and got a heavier tire.

[mrblaine]

Milan, Sorry about Champion, I have no idea what their problem is.

A suitable alternative is what Seth is running. He posted pics of his new ones on here and they are nearly identical to Champions.

They are done in Riverside I think and are also the ones that Currie is running.

Maybe Seth can post a link to them, I know they just started making the rings for 17's. There rings also have the holes slightly slotted so you can use them on either theirs or the Champions.

btw- Seth's are hand welded with a TIG and Champions are auto welded with a wire feed. Don't know the difference, but I prefer the look of a TIG weld. It just looks better.

[Milan]

Hi Blaine,
No need to appologize for anything. It's not your fault. I will try to get them on the phone rather than leaving messages. Coincidentally, I thought Champions were TIG welded but I too would not know the difference other than diffrent gas used for shielding? Don't matter as long as the rims are round and center and hold the tire well.

Sethmark,
If you're reading this, could you point me to the source of your rims? I saw your other post and even asked a couple of things but I thought those were Champions on MT Classic II's. If you want to take this off-line, please email me. Thanks.

[sethmark]

Mine are OMF beadlocks, built on a M/T Classic II.

The company is in Riverside, CA, and I purchased them through Brad Kilby. To be honest, this is the nicest set of rims I've ever owned (and the most expensive). I mounted the tires without any rim sealer, silicone, or anything else (other than a little soapy water).

I've done about 5000 road miles on them, a trip over sledge, a week in Moab, and 2 weekends of lazy wheelin' in the desert. They do not leak. Ever. They DO loosen up after wheelin', but that's probably b/c the bolts are being turned by the rocks as I scrape on by. The have never loosened from street driving.

When I purchased mine, I looked into MRT, Champion, OMF, Trailready and Allied. The fit and finish of the OMF's were incredible. They do everything by computer and the welds are flawless. The other's were priced about the same, but the OMF's just seemed better to me. My experience only.

Seth

[Milan]

Thanks sethmark,
I appreciate your reply. I think your rims (and the whole Jeep) look quite nice. I would prefer 5 spoke alloys but my #2 choice is the MT Classic II. If that will make ordering easier, I'll stick to what you have. They really do look very nice. I'll email Brad. He seems like a nice guy.

[Daless2]

Hi Folks,

I need to correct a mis-statement I made in this post.

I had stated I used Permetex Bead Sealer to glue my tires to the rims. This was a mis-statement cause by my use of permetex products for all other type of sealers and RTV products.

I took the time to actually find the can in my shop and discovered it was really "Steelman Bead Sealer."

My apologies for the mis-statement.

If anyone is interested here is a link that describes the Steelman product some.

http://www.tireservicecentral.com/Pr...hemicals_1.htm



Update on today's balancing.

None of the tires (32x11.50) had rotated on the wheels as far as I could tell.

I had each tire checked for balancing prior to any balancing weights being taken off. Only the one wheel which had lost a .75 oz weight was out of balance.

As Blaine has pointed out, some folks have not had the same positive results when using the bead sealer to keep the wheel from rotating in the tire.

I wouldn't doubt this for a moment. Perhaps this "stuff" will only buy you so much in regards to "grip-tion" between the bead and the rim. Maybe when you get up into the larger size tires the torque multiplying effects exceed the limits of this benefit.

Don't know for sure, but it makes some sense to me.

Frank

PS: I received an email from a long lost friend on this. He reminded me of what we used to use years ago to glue the beads to the rims. It was a roofing compound like Zuk mentioned. Specifically it was called "Miami Black".

I don't know if it is still available or not, but I do know he is sending me a 35-plus year old tub of the stuff. (Guess he figured it was time to clean out his garage and clutter mine!)

[TJRON]

Frank,
How goes the tires?
I recently returned to aluminum rims and noticed a very small shift on my last outing. How is the goop holding up?
Ron