Manual hubs n/a

[Darrell C]

First off, the rig:

'03 Wrangler - Rubicon edition, stock axles front and rear, turning 35" tires.

Plan: Install manual hub conversion with alloy inner and outers, CTMs, staying with 5 - 4.5 bolt pattern. In back, also change to alloys.

Issue: according to Rich Kadwell at Warn, manual hub conversions are not offered for the Rubicon and they have no plans to develop.

Discussion: as the rig gets more and more built, I'm finding greater enjoyment in trying tougher trails. It's not an issue of trying to keep up with others, it's just fun for me. Jeep still gets driven around town, but it's getting trailered to trails more and more because the truck is more comfortable to ride in for longer trips and the trailer provides a means of getting home should something happen. And not just to my rig. I drove my rig out of JV this last weekend and trailered an XJ back.

I mention this because I want to plan ahead and try to minimize breakage as the trails get tougher. Unless someone knows how to adapt a Warn kit up front onto my Jeep (I'm not even sure what the differences are that prohibit it), it looks like I've got to find alternatives.

Any thoughts??

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Darrell C
First off, the rig:

'03 Wrangler - Rubicon edition, stock axles front and rear, turning 35" tires.

Plan: Install manual hub conversion with alloy inner and outers, CTMs, staying with 5 - 4.5 bolt pattern. In back, also change to alloys.

Issue: according to Rich Kadwell at Warn, manual hub conversions are not offered for the Rubicon and they have no plans to develop.

Discussion: as the rig gets more and more built, I'm finding greater enjoyment in trying tougher trails. It's not an issue of trying to keep up with others, it's just fun for me. Jeep still gets driven around town, but it's getting trailered to trails more and more because the truck is more comfortable to ride in for longer trips and the trailer provides a means of getting home should something happen. And not just to my rig. I drove my rig out of JV this last weekend and trailered an XJ back.

I mention this because I want to plan ahead and try to minimize breakage as the trails get tougher. Unless someone knows how to adapt a Warn kit up front onto my Jeep (I'm not even sure what the differences are that prohibit it), it looks like I've got to find alternatives.

Any thoughts??

What's different from the u-joint outwards that would prevent it from working?

edit- I just talked to Warn and as I suspected, the only issue is the non stock inner axle. That's a simple matter of getting either a Warn, Currie, or Superior blank and getting it cut and splined for both sides.

[Darrell C]

Originally posted by mrblaine
What's different from the u-joint outwards that would prevent it from working?

edit- I just talked to Warn and as I suspected, the only issue is the non stock inner axle. That's a simple matter of getting either a Warn, Currie, or Superior blank and getting it cut and splined for both sides.

Blaine,

Makes sense, and I appreciate you checking on it. I thought the Rubi front was nearly identical to a D30 save the center section. Guess it stands to reason the inner shafts would be different...probably shorter??

Drivetrain Direct just e-mailed me and stated no alloy shafts available, but a hub kit is, and gave me a price.

Who'd you talk to at Warn? I'd like to chat with them and make a game plan. Also any preference/exprience to declare one alloy blank over another for the inner??

A buddy is trying to talk me into changing patterns to 5 - 5.5 with 30 spline outers. States that it'll give me D44 drivetrain up front since the center is 44. Told him I'd heard the large hub is strong enough to blow the CTM first (or the shaft ears), and I'd really rather have the hub as the fuse. Unless I'm going to carry complete sets to swap in.

Hum, decisions, decisions.

[Deaver]

You may do want you want to do (If I can read correctly)

If you download or get the 2004 Superior Axle catalog, Go to page 4

They list "Evolution Series" axles for TJ-Rubicon's. They list Part No's EV45LFS and EV45RFS which I assume is left and right complete axle assemblies.

They also list P/N's PA6116 (Left inner) and PA6094 (Right inner) if I read this correctly.

You can then use the Warn Hub conversion with Superiors inners

You can download the Catalog HERE

Hope this helps

[Darrell C]

Thanks for the info and link, Deaver.

You mentioned using the Warn kit with Superior inners. Is the Warn outer with the kit different than a stock outer (other than alloy) or even Superior's outer??

I've e-mailed Drivetrain Direct back to see if the quoted price is for the small hub kit or large hub kit.

[Deaver]

I've not used a Warn Hub Conversion ever.

The Warn outer is different than the OEM as you replace, in effect everything outboard from the U-Joint with the Hub kit. You get manual, serviceable hubs as a result. Some Users also replace the OEM inner shaft with Warn's alloy shafts as part of the conversion. They (inner shafts) are NOT included in the Hub conversion kit

Stu Olson, has an excellent write-up on his site. His conversion is for a Dana 30. But keep in mind, the Rubi-44 is the same as far as the hub conversion would be as they share common components that would be involved (not inner shafts)

Click Here

The Superior axle assembly appears to be a replacement for the OEM shafts only. You would reuse the OEM unit-bearing hub assembly

Here is a Link showing the two available Hub conversion Kits from warn. 5-4 1/2 and 5- 5 1/2

My assumption is, That the Warn kit will work with the OEM inners AND the Superior inners as they are the same as the OEM dimensionally (Spline wise and same U-Joint).

Real Warn Hub users can verify ( not a webwheeler like me )



Actually I'm waiting for you to do this and hear back on your results

[Darrell C]

I think we're on the same page.

The only difference, from what I can tell, between the Rubi front 44 and the typical TJ front D30 is the center section (D44 sized R&P...and even that is slightly different than typical D44) and inner shafts (still 30 spline, but must be a length issue if size and spline count are the same).

I just can't see buying the Superior axle setup (alloy inner and outer), and then getting the Warn hub kit with Warn alloy outers as I'd end up not using the Superior outers, just the Superior inners. For that matter, I'd probably remove the 760 U-joint and replace it with a CTM.

Drivetrain direct quoted me, "$345.00 for Warn hubs for my application". I've queried if that is small or large...they didn't specify. That's too cheap to include alloy outers, plus they said alloy axles are not available for my application. Not sure if its OEM outers or just the hubs. Any thoughts??

I'd have to price compare to see if it's worth getting the Superior full alloy set and just using the inners vs. getting an alloy blank and having it splined and cut to make inners.

Then again, maybe I could sell the Superior 27 spline alloy outer. And the spare 760 U-joint could come in handy.

Waiting for me to be test the waters, huh?

Well, the funds are allocated. It's just a matter of ensuring I know what to get so I don't spend money wastefully.

[mrblaine]

At 345, I think they are either misinformed, smoking crack, or quoted you one side only.

I am currently running Superior blanks cut and splined to fit the front nine. 31 spline I think, pretty sure.

Have DTD send you a picture as I think they have confused your 44 with a CJ 44 which has nearly zero interchangeable parts.

[Darrell C]

Hum...

I'll call DTD and Warn tomorrow and see if I can figure out what's up.

[Deaver]

If you want to do the Warn kit, then just get the Superior inners that I mentioned. I think they would be cheaper the splining blanks.

If you get the Warn kit for 345, buy two. I'll make it worth your while

[Darrell C]

Update:

I called Warn, then DTD. Here's the story for the '03 Rubicon Wranglers.

At Warn I spoke with a CS rep who was very helpful, but started to get overwhelmed with the questions I asked. After a few moments I found myself on a 3-way call, they had added an individual named Todd. He seemed pretty sharp.

I told Todd I was planning on both trailering and flat towing behind the our motorhome, depending on the situation, hence I was looking at 5-5.5 hub kits F&R. He stated front would work from the u-joint out with either kit. Could not get the 5-5.5 kit for the rear, yet! (Yet being the optimal word). Todd cautioned me with the small kit and 35's, but I advised him I'd heard of "some folks from southern CA that were having good luck". Some names surfaced and we were instantly on the same page. They would know more about the 5-5.5 kit for the rear later.

I then called DTD and spoke with Patrick. He did a serious job of trying to talk me out of the small hub kit for the front. Stated two main issues would surface: I'd blow the hubs constantly with 35's, and I would not be able to keep the spindle nuts tight.

Also, I could not easily swap to 5-5.5 bolt pattern for the rear as the stock disc brake setup would not accomodate the larger flange that accompanies the larger 5-5.5 bolt pattern. I could dump my existing disc brakes, and install the Terra kit, but I advised him I wasn't willing to do that at this point.

So, what's the upshot???

I ordered chromemolly inners and outers (30 spline/27 spline) with 760 u-joints to use with my existing unit bearings. I'm going to keep checking with Warn re 5-5.5 for the rear. If nothing develops, or will develop in a reasonable time, then I'll use the small hub kit on the front with my existing Chromemolley inners and stay 5-4.5.

Just as a side note, DTD (working with Superior) is releasing a chromemolly front setup that's 30 spline inners and outers, and new unit bearing to accomodate the 30 spline outers. Staying 5-4.5

BTW, does anyone know of Chromemolly rear axles with 5-4.5 BP?? In the event I stay 5-4.5 I'd like to swap a set of those in the rear and keep the stockers as spares.

[Jeff Weston]

The Superior rear axles are drilled for both 5x4.5 & 5x5.5 patterns. I'm not sure what a 30 spline outer with different unit bearing will get you over the 27 spline. I don't know if it is problematic enough to justify the cost of new unit bearings. If one were to stick with unit bearings, I'd go for the 27 splines offered now. Getting new unit bearings without selectable hubs is odd to me. It couldn't be any cheaper than the Warn kit itself.

As for the strength of the 5x4.5 kit, the experiences on this board with the latest gen kit speak for themself. I can't say for sure, but I think the kits are quite similar from a bearing/spindle nut aspect other than the spacing of the bearing. Blaine is the guru on this and could certainly say more.

Good luck!

[Darrell C]

Originally posted by Jeff Weston
The Superior rear axles are drilled for both 5x4.5 & 5x5.5 patterns. I'm not sure what a 30 spline outer with different unit bearing will get you over the 27 spline. I don't know if it is problematic enough to justify the cost of new unit bearings. If one were to stick with unit bearings, I'd go for the 27 splines offered now. Getting new unit bearings without selectable hubs is odd to me. It couldn't be any cheaper than the Warn kit itself.

True enough. And I wonder how often folks are busting a 27 spline spindle shaft at the splines vs. the u-joint taking it out at the ears. Since they both accept a 760 u-joint, I figure the ears are probably the same on both.

When he talked about the new kit with 30 spline inners and outers with new unit bearing, I just listened. I asked how much and he said, "One thousand". I said, "No thanks".

Thanks for the info on the Superior axles being drilled for both bolt patterns. If I end up staying 5-4.5 I'll look at those. Wonder if they'll fit inside my rear disc setup??

[Jeff Weston]

Originally posted by Darrell C

When he talked about the new kit with 30 spline inners and outers with new unit bearing, I just listened. I asked how much and he said, "One thousand". I said, "No thanks".

Thanks for the info on the Superior axles being drilled for both bolt patterns. If I end up staying 5-4.5 I'll look at those. Wonder if they'll fit inside my rear disc setup?? [/B]

FWIW, I use these axles (30 spline, not the 33 spline Supers) with a ZJ rear conversion (almost identical to the TJ discs) on my TJ without any problems.

[mrblaine]

Originally posted by Darrell C
Update:

I called Warn, then DTD. Here's the story for the '03 Rubicon Wranglers.

At Warn I spoke with a CS rep who was very helpful, but started to get overwhelmed with the questions I asked. After a few moments I found myself on a 3-way call, they had added an individual named Todd. He seemed pretty sharp.

I told Todd I was planning on both trailering and flat towing behind the our motorhome, depending on the situation, hence I was looking at 5-5.5 hub kits F&R. He stated front would work from the u-joint out with either kit. Could not get the 5-5.5 kit for the rear, yet! (Yet being the optimal word). Todd cautioned me with the small kit and 35's, but I advised him I'd heard of "some folks from southern CA that were having good luck". Some names surfaced and we were instantly on the same page. They would know more about the 5-5.5 kit for the rear later.

I then called DTD and spoke with Patrick. He did a serious job of trying to talk me out of the small hub kit for the front. Stated two main issues would surface: I'd blow the hubs constantly with 35's, and I would not be able to keep the spindle nuts tight.

Also, I could not easily swap to 5-5.5 bolt pattern for the rear as the stock disc brake setup would not accomodate the larger flange that accompanies the larger 5-5.5 bolt pattern. I could dump my existing disc brakes, and install the Terra kit, but I advised him I wasn't willing to do that at this point.

So, what's the upshot???

I ordered chromemolly inners and outers (30 spline/27 spline) with 760 u-joints to use with my existing unit bearings. I'm going to keep checking with Warn re 5-5.5 for the rear. If nothing develops, or will develop in a reasonable time, then I'll use the small hub kit on the front with my existing Chromemolley inners and stay 5-4.5.

Just as a side note, DTD (working with Superior) is releasing a chromemolly front setup that's 30 spline inners and outers, and new unit bearing to accomodate the 30 spline outers. Staying 5-4.5

BTW, does anyone know of Chromemolly rear axles with 5-4.5 BP?? In the event I stay 5-4.5 I'd like to swap a set of those in the rear and keep the stockers as spares.

Patrick has his head up his ass. When Warn went to the heat treated spindles and the three piece locknut set, all of the spindle nut issues went away.

We have more trips than can be easily counted on the rigs in our group with the small hub kit on 35's and I think we have broke two hubs. In all fairness, one of them only went after a u-joint exploded that had been stressed pretty hard earlier in the day.

As a point of comparison, Mark Hinkley broke a 5.5 hub first trip out on his HP 30. So which one is the strongest?

DTD is going to tell you anything they can to get you to buy the Superior stuff. Similar to going to the Ford dealer and getting him to espouse the virtues of Chevy.

[Paradiddle]

FWIW I don't think you need chormolly rear axles. Our group has had good luck on stock TJ and/or Evolution Hardened (but not chormolly) rear axles in the TJ 44 running 35s.

The only added stressor is your 4/1 case - but Robert Yates has one and hasn't been breaking rear shafts left and right.

IMO you should focus on the front - get a Warn small kit, Warn outers, have inners cut, and CTMs and be done with it. Changing a Warn hub is so fast on the trail that you would spend more time changing a tire - and that is if it breaks.

You can purchase a short side rear replacement axle from Superior as your spare - you only need one as it will work on both sides to get you off the trail.

I will also tell you that when Mark broke his hub he had folded a couple teeth over and ruined the pinion - this was with a HP Super 30 - seems the weak link was moved inward with the big hubs.

Just my opinion.

Jeff