Why Rubber sucks or Attn: Jerry B.

[mrblaine]

Here you go Jerry, as promised.

This is on our stock 04.

Driver's side, notice the 1/2-20 hex nuts locking the rotor to the unit bearing for accuracy.



Same thing on the passenger side. The aluminum tubing is 1" square cut to 35" long, marked at the centerline and then at 31 and 33" tire diameters.



This is the back dimension from the factory. 59 and slightly over 1/16th of an inch.



This is the front dimension-59 and slightly under 1/4" or about 3/16's toed out from the factory.



This is the new rear dimension-59 and just over 3/16's.



New front dimension- 59 and 1/8" or slightly more than 1/16" toe in.



Now, do you really think you can get that accuracy measuring the tread blocks?

[Lawrence]

I quickly glanced at the title, and I asked myself: "Why in the world would Blaine tell Jerry that rubbers suck?" Then, I read your last sentence and I quickly realized that you were talking about a different kind of rubber. Thank God, I didn't feel like explaining to Jerry what rubbers are for...

[mrblaine]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

I quickly glanced at the title, and I asked myself: "Why in the world would Blaine tell Jerry that rubbers suck?" Then, I read your last sentence and I quickly realized that you were talking about a different kind of rubber. Thank God, I didn't feel like explaining to Jerry what rubbers are for...

How else are you supposed to keep your shoes dry?

[Jerry Bransford]

That's a great method Blaine, thanks, especially the two tape measures... very cool! I noticed you posted this a couple days ago, I just finally got back online from being down with the flu. 102 degree temps and hacking coughs suck when you're old like me.

[Tim]

Originally Posted by Jerry Bransford

That's a great method Blaine, thanks, especially the two tape measures... very cool! I noticed you posted this a couple days ago, I just finally got back online from being down with the flu. 102 degree temps and hacking coughs suck when you're old like me.

me too jerry, i never get sick but this flu knocked me right down... i go back to work today.

blaine, i like that method and will put it to use on my own jeep!!!

[steelman]

Originally Posted by T.Dome

blaine, i like that method and will put it to use on my own jeep!!!

Ditto!

[TJeeper]

Very good idea Blaine. I got a chance to try it out today. It took longer to set the bars up than setting the toe-in. And, unlike before, I am pretty sure this time it was accurate.

[blkTJ]

how do you know your wheels are pointed straight forward?

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by blkTJ

how do you know your wheels are pointed straight forward?

It shouldn't really matter since the aluminum square tubing is clamped to the rotors.

[mrblaine]

Originally Posted by blkTJ

how do you know your wheels are pointed straight forward?

Sight down each aluminum tube towards the rear tires. Notice where each one sights on the rear tire and make the margins approximately the same.

[blkTJ]

Originally Posted by mrblaine

Sight down each aluminum tube towards the rear tires. Notice where each one sights on the rear tire and make the margins approximately the same.

fair enough. I guess we didn't think about that. when I checked my toe in last month I was a quarter out. I'm a skeptic.

[blkTJ]

Originally Posted by mrblaine

Sight down each aluminum tube towards the rear tires. Notice where each one sights on the rear tire and make the margins approximately the same.

Originally Posted by Lawrence

It shouldn't really matter since the aluminum square tubing is clamped to the rotors.

no, it really should since the turning radius of the front tires is not 1:1.

[mrblaine]

Originally Posted by blkTJ

fair enough. I guess we didn't think about that. when I checked my toe in last month I was a quarter out. I'm a skeptic.

I assumed your question was "how do you figure it out"? If you were asking how I figure it out, that's a different question.

I've done it enough that I automatically take the relative positions of each tube into account as they pertain to the rear tires and go from there. After 1 or 50 times of doing it, you don't always explain every tiny step when you're trying to diagnose an issue.

If you truly wanted to be nit picky, then you would set the angle of the passenger tire relative to the rear tire and then bring the driver's side in with the toe, compare the angles of each relative to the rear tires and fine tune from there.

What about yours was wrong after you left?

[blkTJ]

Originally Posted by mrblaine

What about yours was wrong after you left?

At the time it seemed better than it was. After a few trips (calico, big bear) I determined the steering was still not right. wouldn't track worth a damn. checked it the old fashion way and found it was 1/4" toe out, or at least that's what the rubber told me.

on an unrelated but also scary note, I also lost my front brakes. rears would lock up any time I attempted moderate braking. found a bunch of air in my front lines. more in the passenger than the driver side. not sure what would cause this, maybe a master that's going bad?

needless to say, I haven't had warm fuzzy feelings about the jeep in quite some time.

[mrblaine]

Originally Posted by blkTJ

At the time it seemed better than it was. After a few trips (calico, big bear) I determined the steering was still not right. wouldn't track worth a damn. checked it the old fashion way and found it was 1/4" toe out, or at least that's what the rubber told me.

on an unrelated but also scary note, I also lost my front brakes. rears would lock up any time I attempted moderate braking. found a bunch of air in my front lines. more in the passenger than the driver side. not sure what would cause this, maybe a master that's going bad?

needless to say, I haven't had warm fuzzy feelings about the jeep in quite some time.

If you believe the rubber, then it's all good.

[blkTJ]

Originally Posted by mrblaine

If you believe the rubber, then it's all good.

if we're trading snide comments... I tend to believe how it handles.

[mrblaine]

Originally Posted by blkTJ

if we're trading snide comments... I tend to believe how it handles.

You started off on a snide premise. The alignment method is good, it is and always will be more accurate than measuring rubber. The instant you dispute that, then you are overlooking that something is changing your alignment and you are placing blame squarely on the wrong thing and that would be Me and my alignment methods and you toss it under the category of "skepticism". It's only skepticism if you wish to be snide and not understand how stuff works.

Now, have you done the obvious things that need to be done?

Are the steering connections tight?

How's the trackbar?

How's the steering box and attachment points?

Did the ride height change?

How are the wheel bearings?

How are the balljoints?

Does the toe change with weight on and off the tires?

Blah, blah, blah, you know the drill. Find out the issue and fix it because it's not how I set the toe.

The toe-in was correct when it left here. You wheeled it and it changed. You need to find out why before you get any more "skeptical".

[mrblaine]

Originally Posted by blkTJ

how do you know your wheels are pointed straight forward?

In your typical fashion Brian, you don't bring the problem forward right away to get an answer that will actually help you with your dilemma.

The correct question should have dealt with the fact that your toe is changing and you'd like to know why or how. Instead, you beat around the bush and try to lay the blame off on the alignment method instead of just being upfront. That's the snide and obtuse method you started this with under the guise of "skeptic".

That earns you the response of, "if you think rubber is more accurate, then it's all good".

[blkTJ]

well, no, I haven't checked all of those things. I will post back when I've had a chance.

wouldn't the least distance between the front blocks as the steering was turned give you center?

[mrblaine]

Originally Posted by blkTJ

well, no, I haven't checked all of those things. I will post back when I've had a chance.

wouldn't the least distance between the front blocks as the steering was turned give you center?

What blocks are you referring to?

[blkTJ]

well, I meant the tubing that gets clamped onto the rotors. not blocks by any means, bad word choice. as I picture the sweep of the front wheels there should be a point where the distance between the front tubes is at it's minimum. I'm theorizing that this is center.

[mrblaine]

Originally Posted by blkTJ

well, I meant the tubing that gets clamped onto the rotors. not blocks by any means, bad word choice. as I picture the sweep of the front wheels there should be a point where the distance between the front tubes is at it's minimum. I'm theorizing that this is center.

It should be. Or, you can find the center of the axle, center that in the frame after it's level, extrapolate that point forward until it's over the tape measure and drop a plumb bob down. Equalize that distance and bring each tire in to have the toe in amount equal to half of the total required.

Or, set up the tubes, sight down them to set them against the rear tires and call it good.

Again, the issue is not how the toe was set. The amount the toe changed according to you was 7/16's of an inch. The toe isn't going to change that much in the small amount that the tires might not be pointed perfectly straight ahead if you bring them back to center.

Find the real problem.

[1st turtle]

I like to turn my wheels all the way to the right when doing an alignment. It seems I am always driving right. So it will be aligned in that direction';>)hha

That looks like the info with the caliper kit Blaine.

Al

Originally Posted by blkTJ

no, it really should since the turning radius of the front tires is not 1:1.

[Rockjeep]

I've done it somewhat this way for years. I have never found a true tire.

[1st turtle]

In the last couple of years, only tried it once on the rubber just for (edit)sits and giggles. Not happening.

Al

That looks like the info with the caliper kit Blaine.
ORO U-Turn had that info, only over the tire. Did not like that idea.

[Allen]

Originally Posted by 1st turtle

In the last couple of years, only tried it once on the rubber just for (edit)sits and giggles. Not happening.

Al

That looks like the info with the caliper kit Blaine.
ORO U-Turn had that info, only over the tire. Did not like that idea.

What's wrong with over the tire? Do you mean bar over the top of the hub instead of under?

That's how I've been doing it.

Don't have to bend over as far that way.

[mrblaine]

Originally Posted by Allen

Don't have to bend over as far that way.

The way you're built, do you actually bend in the middle?

[Allen]

Originally Posted by mrblaine

The way you're built, do you actually bend in the middle?

I bend much better now than last you saw me.

44 lbs now and 4 new holes in my belt to tighten it up.

38" waisted jeans down to 36-34" waist.

275 to 231. I'll admit, the last few pounds have been slow to fall off, so I've eliminated another snack/meal at 9am. That got things going again, albeit slowly.

I like the new me. (So does my wife. )

My eating was just out of control. I guess I'm no longer in high school, nor a wrestler or defensive back. So I don't eat like it either......instead I eat like a 180-190 pound male eats. We'll see just how close I can come to that.....

I want some new jeans.....and a new belt that doesn't have 12 holes in it or 16" of extra length hanging around.